Game 23 - Sixers at Grizzlies 8pm ET

[DCasey91]

Tobias Harris didn’t stop us from having the most talented roster or one of the most talented rosters or the first seed in the east in the last 3-4 years.

Let’s not forget how in the 2018-2019 season we had that “we need to use it or we lose it” phase with our cap because we were about to extend guys like Roco and Dario back then.

If you need more talent than Tobias. Then maybe the problem is your best player or your second best player are not good enough.

Because a guy like Giannis, Jokic, Steph or Doncic would go further if he had Harden, Maxey and Tobias.

Mate I think you are really overrating our list by just looking at regular season numbers.

You can’t tell me that Tobias was a terrible move that will hamper the team chances long term, and it has of course. It is stopping management control financially speaking. For what 3 seasons of a huge immovable contract makes businesses go busto.

That’s the catch 22, if the FO has this boom/bust mentality on going all in for Embiid you better get it up to scratch but the list is so flawed I really don’t know a way out. If Embiid is the hill to die on so be it

Maybe it is a problem that our two best players don’t have the game to go all the way but that’s seldom seen because they haven’t done a full run through of the playoffs yet.

But honestly to me it’s the FO above all else. I rate it bottom 5 for the last six years.

And with Grizzlies thing you are wrong as I previously mentioned.

Tobias is a wrong move if you dont look at your limitations. Simply, we can use Tobias money to sign Kevin Durant but that’s not happening.

Tobias is not a wrong move if you look at your limitations and how it went after it.

Who are the alternatives?
- Dario and Shamet (future Guangdong tigers MVP)
- Hayward (injured)
- Brogdon (always injured)
- DLo (shooting like thybulle)
*ben wouldnt be happy if you got those 3 because Embiid said we let Jimmy go because Ben wants the ball

And in the end we are either are the..
- most talented team
- one of the most talented teams (2019-2020)
- top seed in the east

Tobias is now shooting 3s and playing good defense.
Not being a lockeroom cancer complaining about his role.
Top 50 to 60 player in the league as per RAPTOR or RPM.

Pool out the money over mid term contracts, I think the FO got sucked into the idea of resigning him and
running it back sort of deal. I still can’t believe by reports that Harris was actually the first one they went to on the first day of FA. That can’t be right.

That’s the alternative. 2 20 mil contracts (Barnes type deals) or simply having that financial flexibility is better than putting into one player that got paid like an ALL NBA player but is nowhere near that.

[DCasey91]

This is the simplest way to explain it:

The league values bread at $2
We put it at $4

The rest of the league was like okay we can buy 2x bread when your’e still left with 1 and you get one less because you doubled the value of bread. So you’re basically negative 1 and a differential of 2 (one on each side because the league gains one and you lose out on one because you have a cap).

Now your budget is $16 or $4x4

Or for NBA caps:

40*4 is 160 (160mil)

Now for a thing called exponential loss/growth

Tobias has 3 seasons at $4 more or less
In that exact time you have had a whopping 6 loads of bread spread at $2 a pop but instead of that you’ve overpaid for one whole loaf for the duration (contract wise). Now those 6 loafs can be divided how you see fit but like you and the rest of the league who has half a brain still buys the bread at $2.

Now because of a negative differential (league at $2 you at $4) leads to $12 (6 on each side) or 120mil in lost money.

Do you know how bad that contract really is? That’s not even getting into numeration of what you would do with that lost money each year that you never get back.

Let alone getting into a team getting better by the alone value of having 2 loafs of bread instead of one.

It doesn’t matter if you don’t hit on undervalued loaves of bread like for example the discount Melton croissant you just have to find the league average at $2 a pop to come out on top by $60mil on your side.

So in conclusion Tobias is a conman and we got stale bread that anyone can get for half the price we put on it lmao.

And hey what do you know just checked the 60th rank salary is……. 21 mil. If Raptor/All in one whatever Morey/BPM CIRCJERkNERD metrics puts you at 60th in the league for laments terms then hey your the $2 dollar man.

Basically you paid Supercar prices for a regular sedan. And fans would be like why aren’t we performing well. If you go to a track meet with a car that goes 200km/hr and everyone has 2x of those don’t expect to whine when you lose out to double the excess or ones that perform higher at say 300km/hr at the same price tag.

It throws out you get what you paid for out of the window.

[Embiid P]

As I said before, we should try to take advantage of the Magic's surplus of big wings (Bamba, Bol, Carter, Jr. or less preferably Ross or the perennially injured Isaac) and move Tobias for one or more of them. All of them are lengthy defenders who are average 3 point shooters which is what we sorely need.

The fact that Tobias has another year on his contract after this one shouldn't matter much to them as they are very much likely to be in the Wenbanyama (another big BTW) sweepstakes and are thus at least 2-3 years away from being legit contenders. There's simply no way that they are going to be able to keep all of their young talent (25 and under) long-term without going far over the luxury tax threshold, which I very much doubt their owners are willing to do. Tobias would provide them with not only much needed veteran leadership, but also allow them to be significant players in free agency in the summer of 2024 when his contract comes off the books.

[76ciology]

This is the simplest way to explain it:

The league values bread at $2
We put it at $4

The rest of the league was like okay we can buy 2x bread when your’e still left with 1 and you get one less because you doubled the value of bread. So you’re basically negative 1 and a differential of 2 (one on each side because the league gains one and you lose out on one because you have a cap).

Now your budget is $16 or $4x4

Or for NBA caps:

40*4 is 160 (160mil)

Now for a thing called exponential loss/growth

Tobias has 3 seasons at $4 more or less
In that exact time you have had a whopping 6 loads of bread spread at $2 a pop but instead of that you’ve overpaid for one whole loaf for the duration (contract wise). Now those 6 loafs can be divided how you see fit but like you and the rest of the league who has half a brain still buys the bread at $2.

Now because of a negative differential (league at $2 you at $4) leads to $12 (6 on each side) or 120mil in lost money.

Do you know how bad that contract really is? That’s not even getting into numeration of what you would do with that lost money each year that you never get back.

Let alone getting into a team getting better by the alone value of having 2 loafs of bread instead of one.

It doesn’t matter if you don’t hit on undervalued loaves of bread like for example the discount Melton croissant you just have to find the league average at $2 a pop to come out on top by $60mil on your side.

So in conclusion Tobias is a conman and we got stale bread that anyone can get for half the price we put on it lmao.

And hey what do you know just checked the 60th rank salary is……. 21 mil. If Raptor/All in one whatever Morey/BPM CIRCJERkNERD metrics puts you at 60th in the league for laments terms then hey your the $2 dollar man.

Basically you paid Supercar prices for a regular sedan. And fans would be like why aren’t we performing well. If you go to a track meet with a car that goes 200km/hr and everyone has 2x of those don’t expect to whine when you lose out to double the excess or ones that perform higher at say 300km/hr at the same price tag.

It throws out you get what you paid for out of the window.

“This aint a *insert two Tobias alternative* victory party”

Who cares about value if a.) the owners does not care about paying the tax b.) it does not prevent you from having the most talented team in the league, one of the most talented team in the league or a best record in the east?

Cap situation:


BTW, this is the list of top FAs at that time
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/top-35-free-agents-2019-nba-offseason

scenario after we let Jimmy walk because of Ben’s need to have ball in his hand and we had cap space

This one isn’t pretty unless the Sixers are landing at least one marquis K-named free agent (e.g. Kevin Durant, Klay Thompson, Kawhi Leonard, Kyrie Irving, Khris Middleton). It means the team burned almost every non-Joel Embiid, Ben Simmons asset that “The Process” accrued and has little to show for it except cap-space on a secondary FA market.

Here they could keep Redick and then go big for a restricted free agent like Malcolm Brogdon, praying Milwaukee isn’t motivated to keep a potential championship roster together. Then target a couple players like Danny Green, Pat Beverley, Jeremy Lamb, Kelly Oubre, Dewayne Dedmon, and explore sign-and-trade possibilities.

Bigs = nope

Guards = will Ben approve? Almost all of them flopped due to poor play or injury

Wings = Hayward or Julius Randle or Harrison Barnes or Khris Middleton victory party? Nope.

*default would be roco 23M, Dario 15M and JJ at 7M, is that better than how it turned out?

[76ciology]

As I said before, we should try to take advantage of the Magic's surplus of big wings (Bamba, Bol, Carter, Jr. or less preferably Ross or the perennially injured Isaac) and move Tobias for one or more of them. All of them are lengthy defenders who are average 3 point shooters which is what we sorely need.

The fact that Tobias has another year on his contract after this one shouldn't matter much to them as they are very much likely to be in the Wenbanyama (another big BTW) sweepstakes and are thus at least 2-3 years away from being legit contenders. There's simply no way that they are going to be able to keep all of their young talent (25 and under) long-term without going far over the luxury tax threshold, which I very much doubt their owners are willing to do. Tobias would provide them with not only much needed veteran leadership, but also allow them to be significant players in free agency in the summer of 2024 when his contract comes off the books.

Whats with the gloom and doom scenario like “we have to trade Tobias or else we’re not gonna win championship” outlook?

We have the most talented team in the league. We just need to know how to play this team.

A good reminder of this is the other thread where we looked like we were the worst defensive team of all time and now we’re the second best defensive team in the league.

Every team just had an off night, and that was what we had in the last two nights. We played hard and our bench is getting confidence and that is all that matters for now

And when we go to full health, thats when we need to figure things out

[Embiid P]

As I said before, we should try to take advantage of the Magic's surplus of big wings (Bamba, Bol, Carter, Jr. or less preferably Ross or the perennially injured Isaac) and move Tobias for one or more of them. All of them are lengthy defenders who are average 3 point shooters which is what we sorely need.

The fact that Tobias has another year on his contract after this one shouldn't matter much to them as they are very much likely to be in the Wenbanyama (another big BTW) sweepstakes and are thus at least 2-3 years away from being legit contenders. There's simply no way that they are going to be able to keep all of their young talent (25 and under) long-term without going far over the luxury tax threshold, which I very much doubt their owners are willing to do. Tobias would provide them with not only much needed veteran leadership, but also allow them to be significant players in free agency in the summer of 2024 when his contract comes off the books.

Whats with the gloom and doom scenario like “we have to trade Tobias or else we’re not gonna win championship” outlook?

We have the most talented team in the league. We just need to know how to play this team.

A good reminder of this is the other thread where we looked like we were the worst defensive team of all time and now we’re the second best defensive team in the league.

Every team just had an off night, and that was what we had in the last two nights. We played hard and our bench is getting confidence and that is all that matters for now

And when we go to full health, thats when we need to figure things out

Do you not agree that the teams that have given us the most trouble are the teams with long athletic wings and PFs? Sure injuries haven't helped but the fact that we were destroyed on the glass during the last two games is an indictment on this obvious truth. Just thinking about who on our team is going to be covering Tatum, Giannis, Mobley, Siakam, etc. should we meet them in a seven game playoff series.

[phillynative]

Broken record time but that first year team was the blueprint.

Need a real PG to get Biid easy shots. A movement shooter. Two 3-d guys. And Biid

Off the bench a microwave scorer, a stretch big, and ideally a real back up center for once. The rest of the team can be rangy athletes, shooters, and a 3rd PG prospect.

In year one That was Ben, JJ, Cov, Dario, Biid. Marco was the microwave, Ersan was the stretch Big. Didn't have a real back up center. Ben wasn't a real PG and didn;t get Biid easy shots but made up for that on defense and rebounding so it was ok (and we still were lying to ourselves lol). Following season it was Jimmy and Tobias replacing Dario and Cov. Neither were high volume 3pt shooters but Jimmy's creation and defense made up for that. Tobias' defense upgrade over Dario and some of his creation skills as well. No bench tho

Since then we never tried to recreate that IMO. But even the Hawks year of Ben, Seth, Danny, Tobias, Biid was better than nothing just role and prototype wise. Danny wasn't the defender he used to be but the chuck 3s and defend guy is perfect. Tobias again didn't shoot enough 3s (ironically the Tobias we have now would have been fine lol) Seth wasn't the movement shooterwe needed but they figured things out but he was lowkey worse than JJ on defense...and again Ben's lack of development as a creator hurt.

Harden and Maxey are better players than most of the above names but both are targets on defense....whereas we could hide JJ or Seth and we don't have the Ben, Cov, Jimmy defenders to really attack. The game is all about covering up as many weakness as you can while exploiting others. Those teams had worse offensive talent in terms of creation and it was our downfall. But that and the bench was kinda it. We rebounded well IIRC. We defended well too. This current roster does what well? We rely on guys like Maxey, Shake or Niang to get hot from 3 or for Biid to grift his way to the line or hit all of his tough fade aways. Been better on defense but how much of that is Harden and Maxey being hurt and bad teams?

Not even saying its easy to build around a bigman in todays game...its not. Just dont think we are doing a great job of it either.

Or
a sniper/playmaking PG
Scorer or 3&D Guard
Scorer or 3&D Wing
Big Stretch 4
Embiid
Bench:
Microwave scorer/playmaker off the bench
Another 3&D wing
An athletic lob threat & fast break threat
Legit Back up Center

Or(Bucks like)(All defense)
All around PG
Shooter/Scorer
3&D
Stretch4&Defender
Embiid

There's not one way to build around him but there is a formula. Now that we have you have Harden you have to take that into consideration . Harden need lob threats and 3&D wings

[DCasey91]

This is the simplest way to explain it:

The league values bread at $2
We put it at $4

The rest of the league was like okay we can buy 2x bread when your’e still left with 1 and you get one less because you doubled the value of bread. So you’re basically negative 1 and a differential of 2 (one on each side because the league gains one and you lose out on one because you have a cap).

Now your budget is $16 or $4x4

Or for NBA caps:

40*4 is 160 (160mil)

Now for a thing called exponential loss/growth

Tobias has 3 seasons at $4 more or less
In that exact time you have had a whopping 6 loads of bread spread at $2 a pop but instead of that you’ve overpaid for one whole loaf for the duration (contract wise). Now those 6 loafs can be divided how you see fit but like you and the rest of the league who has half a brain still buys the bread at $2.

Now because of a negative differential (league at $2 you at $4) leads to $12 (6 on each side) or 120mil in lost money.

Do you know how bad that contract really is? That’s not even getting into numeration of what you would do with that lost money each year that you never get back.

Let alone getting into a team getting better by the alone value of having 2 loafs of bread instead of one.

It doesn’t matter if you don’t hit on undervalued loaves of bread like for example the discount Melton croissant you just have to find the league average at $2 a pop to come out on top by $60mil on your side.

So in conclusion Tobias is a conman and we got stale bread that anyone can get for half the price we put on it lmao.

And hey what do you know just checked the 60th rank salary is……. 21 mil. If Raptor/All in one whatever Morey/BPM CIRCJERkNERD metrics puts you at 60th in the league for laments terms then hey your the $2 dollar man.

Basically you paid Supercar prices for a regular sedan. And fans would be like why aren’t we performing well. If you go to a track meet with a car that goes 200km/hr and everyone has 2x of those don’t expect to whine when you lose out to double the excess or ones that perform higher at say 300km/hr at the same price tag.

It throws out you get what you paid for out of the window.

“This aint a *insert two Tobias alternative* victory party”

Who cares about value if a.) the owners does not care about paying the tax b.) it does not prevent you from having the most talented team in the league, one of the most talented team in the league or a best record in the east?

Cap situation:


BTW, this is the list of top FAs at that time
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/top-35-free-agents-2019-nba-offseason

scenario after we let Jimmy walk because of Ben’s need to have ball in his hand and we had cap space

This one isn’t pretty unless the Sixers are landing at least one marquis K-named free agent (e.g. Kevin Durant, Klay Thompson, Kawhi Leonard, Kyrie Irving, Khris Middleton). It means the team burned almost every non-Joel Embiid, Ben Simmons asset that “The Process” accrued and has little to show for it except cap-space on a secondary FA market.

Here they could keep Redick and then go big for a restricted free agent like Malcolm Brogdon, praying Milwaukee isn’t motivated to keep a potential championship roster together. Then target a couple players like Danny Green, Pat Beverley, Jeremy Lamb, Kelly Oubre, Dewayne Dedmon, and explore sign-and-trade possibilities.

Bigs = nope

Guards = will Ben approve? Almost all of them flopped due to poor play or injury

Wings = Hayward or Julius Randle or Harrison Barnes or Khris Middleton victory party? Nope.

*default would be roco 23M, Dario 15M and JJ at 7M, is that better than how it turned out?

Wasn’t that the year Brand signed Harris and then Horford to awful deals and created the most Frankenstein starting 5 possible?

https://www.si.com/nba/76ers/.amp/news/thunder-al-horford-frustrating-sixers-stint

Here’s Horford recounting it in 2021. 109/4 years and he played 67 games for us ffs. Talk about getting fleeced.

No that’s not the default and you know it. The article states directly we’ve burned assets regularly and for what?

The FO had no idea how to manage then and has no idea now.

And please stop saying the most talented team in the league when we are clearly not. The Butler/Embiid setup was very talented but once again it was talent thin. We had the worst bench in the playoffs which cost us against the Raptors.

[DCasey91]

How can you be the most talented team in the league when you have no starting wing? Riddle me that lol

[Bum Adebayo]

Amazing game by Embiid, 35 points and +9 in a 8 point loss, and his impact was actualy insane we need to appreciate him, not much he can do if the pieces around him suck.

[phillynative]

How can you be the most talented team in the league when you have no starting wing? Riddle me that lol

Exactly no starting wing or back up 5. The montrezz and Reed thing were guys are split . To me they are situational big/forwards.

[phillynative]

If there’s one big mistake we dont talk about that much was letting Jerami Grant go.

But who the hell thought he’d be shooting like Paul George back then?! I wouldnt be surprised if some of us here thought Ben would be a better shooter than Grant. So funny to think about it looking back

Jerami Grant was THE guy we need to play that Tobias role right now.

But Morey could have made a trade for Grant in the offseason, just as what the PTB did but i dont know if we had picks.

I agree with this especially watching how he has played the last few seasons. We traded him for Ersan Illy who was a good fit next to Embiid at the time in 2016 as stretch 4 who could rebound. They didn't even give him a chance to play with Embiid and I guess didnt want to wait to see if his shot would develop.

Grant has developed to where he can hit open 3's , slash to the hoop consisistenly, run the break. Help protect the paint and defend both forward positions.

His skill set would fit in nicely with the starters.

[Kobblehead]

Jerami Grant is terrible at rebounding, so we'd still be bad on the glass ha.

[76ciology]

Jerami Grant is terrible at rebounding, so we'd still be bad on the glass ha.

Hehe yeah this tho

[phillynative]

Maybe actually grabbing a legit back up 5 and some normal size 4's can help the rebounding problem . Embiid and Tucker have to be better there too

[Eyeamok]

If there’s one big mistake we dont talk about that much was letting Jerami Grant go.

But who the hell thought he’d be shooting like Paul George back then?! I wouldnt be surprised if some of us here thought Ben would be a better shooter than Grant. So funny to think about it looking back

Jerami Grant was THE guy we need to play that Tobias role right now.

But Morey could have made a trade for Grant in the offseason, just as what the PTB did but i dont know if we had picks.

Grant was not gonna grow into the player he has become here. He had to go spread his wings and become who he is now

[youngcrev]

Jerami Grant is a career .358 guy shooting .473 from 3. Either he's made a huge anomalous mid career leap in his shooting, or he regresses back to the mean. I'm betting on the latter and him going back to the solid, sub-All Star level starter he's been for the last couple years.

That said, he'd be a great guy to have on this team. Score 1 more for Hinkie.