2025 NBA Draft (2)

[Arsenal]

It’s not an insult to say Kon is similar to Luke Kennard. Look up the stats you love so much.

Luke is a nice role player. I think Kon will be also.

[stormi]

Kon’s inability to shoot off the dribble is a big reason why he won’t be a primary playmaker in the NBA. Without that ability, athletic defenders will crowd his space and force him to drive, which he won’t be able to do against better, longer athletes.

He’ll then settle into a nice Grayson Allen or Luke Kennard type of role.

There's just nothing statistically about Kon's season that confirms this. Final 25 games of the season:

Kon’s offensive game was fleshed out in this span>> 3Pr dropped to 44.9 (was relied upon much more for creation)

his FT and rim volume jumped significantly to 3.8 ATT/G (+1.1) and 4.7 FTA/G (+2.3)

efficiency leapt significantly, his hustle stats jumped significantly> OREB% to 6.1 (+2.9) & STL% to 2.5 (+0.8)

12.8 BPM, 139 ORTG, 71% TS, 17% AST, 49.3 FTr.

He had the splits 40.6% 3P, 91.4 FT%, the creation 1.8 A:TO, the raw counting stats for PRA fans 17/4.6/3.3

Flashed elite self creation> 73% rim + 90% long-two makes unassisted

The athletic concerns are fair, but he displayed high level scoring and passing and was able to be contribute high impact scaled down role and saw his efficiency ascend when his usage rose.

Everything about KK screams high minute contributor on a championship team.

Those pretty stats are against inferior athletes on a stacked team. None of which will apply when he gets to the NBA.

There he will be a nice C&S spacer who has trouble defending since he’s not quick enough to defend guards, and forwards will shoot over his T-Rex arms with no problem whatsoever.

Is there anything tangible to quantify this, or are you forced to live in the realm where nothing matters besides measurables because you've tied your anchor to a prospect that doesn't bring anything besides them to the table?

We got eliminated by a team led by 5'11 Jalen Brunson the last time we were in the playoffs. We were eliminated by a team that started 6'0 Kyle Lowry in the playoffs in 2019 and he went on to win a championship.

T-rex 6'4 Andrew Nembhard with a 6'5 wingspan has started every single playoff game for the team that's 2-1 up in the finals.

If you're valuing combine data as the end all be all, you're miles behind the curve.

[Arsenal]

There's just nothing statistically about Kon's season that confirms this. Final 25 games of the season:

Kon’s offensive game was fleshed out in this span>> 3Pr dropped to 44.9 (was relied upon much more for creation)

his FT and rim volume jumped significantly to 3.8 ATT/G (+1.1) and 4.7 FTA/G (+2.3)

efficiency leapt significantly, his hustle stats jumped significantly> OREB% to 6.1 (+2.9) & STL% to 2.5 (+0.8)

12.8 BPM, 139 ORTG, 71% TS, 17% AST, 49.3 FTr.

He had the splits 40.6% 3P, 91.4 FT%, the creation 1.8 A:TO, the raw counting stats for PRA fans 17/4.6/3.3

Flashed elite self creation> 73% rim + 90% long-two makes unassisted

The athletic concerns are fair, but he displayed high level scoring and passing and was able to be contribute high impact scaled down role and saw his efficiency ascend when his usage rose.

Everything about KK screams high minute contributor on a championship team.

Those pretty stats are against inferior athletes on a stacked team. None of which will apply when he gets to the NBA.

There he will be a nice C&S spacer who has trouble defending since he’s not quick enough to defend guards, and forwards will shoot over his T-Rex arms with no problem whatsoever.

Is there anything tangible to quantify this, or are you forced to live in the realm where nothing matters besides measurables because you've tied your anchor to a prospect that doesn't bring anything besides them to the table?

We got eliminated by a team led by 5'11 Jalen Brunson the last time we were in the playoffs. We were eliminated by a team that started 6'0 Kyle Lowry in the playoffs in 2019 and he went on to win a championship.

T-rex 6'4 Andrew Nembhard with a 6'5 wingspan has started every single playoff game for the team that's 2-1 up in the finals.

If you're valuing combine data as the end all be all, you're stuck way behind the curve.

And all of those guys were picked late 1st or early 2nd round. Or are you insinuating it’s a positive to have inferior measurements?

I value both stats AND physical profile, unlike you since you clearly think it’s all about college numbers and everything else is irrelevant.

[stormi]

Those pretty stats are against inferior athletes on a stacked team. None of which will apply when he gets to the NBA.

There he will be a nice C&S spacer who has trouble defending since he’s not quick enough to defend guards, and forwards will shoot over his T-Rex arms with no problem whatsoever.

Is there anything tangible to quantify this, or are you forced to live in the realm where nothing matters besides measurables because you've tied your anchor to a prospect that doesn't bring anything besides them to the table?

We got eliminated by a team led by 5'11 Jalen Brunson the last time we were in the playoffs. We were eliminated by a team that started 6'0 Kyle Lowry in the playoffs in 2019 and he went on to win a championship.

T-rex 6'4 Andrew Nembhard with a 6'5 wingspan has started every single playoff game for the team that's 2-1 up in the finals.

If you're valuing combine data as the end all be all, you're stuck way behind the curve.

And all of those guys were picked late 1st or early 2nd round. Or are you insinuating it’s a positive to have inferior measurements?

I value both stats AND physical profile, unlike you since you clearly think it’s all about college numbers and everything else is irrelevant.

They were picked late because of stone aged evaluators that thought like you, winning players that were all overlooked for bodybuilding bad basketball player busts.

There's a pyramidal hierarchy in the evaluation process and at the top is always strictly how dominant you were relative to your peers.

Unless you're describing a freak 1 of 1 raw athlete like a Giannis coming from Greece, the combine data should only ever be used to split hairs between similarly tiered prospects.

In the case of Suggs vs Barnes for example. Suggs was ranked higher all year and was probably slightly better at UCONN than Barnes was at Florida State, but in the case of two elite performing college prospects, there was absolutely nothing wrong doing what Masai did and vouching for the 6'8 wing with a 7'2 wingspan.

Now in the case of say Bailey vs Edgecombe. VJ is a lot closer to being a Jalen Suggs level prospect than Ace Bailey is to being a Scottie Barnes level prospect. He's probably closer to a Sekou Doumbouya or a Ziaire Williams.

Drafting someone like Bailey over a Jalen Suggs would be grounds for something more finite than just the termination of your NBA job.

[Black Mage]

And this is why I stopped trying to discuss things with you Stormi. You make outlandish statements and when shown to be wrong you just can't admit it.

So go support Kon, not gonna waste my time.

[stormi]

And this is why I stopped trying to discuss things with you Stormi. You make outlandish statements and when shown to be wrong you just can't admit it.

So go support Kon, not gonna waste my time.

I don't mind residing alone on Kon / VJ > Ace island, I just want arguments in good faith.

The "my guy has star upside because of his wingspan" rebuttal that's being spammed in here is just lazy and low-browed bs, lol.

[76ciology]

I know it'll be misconstrued, but watching this Indy game I feel like VJ and Mathurin have similarities in their games. I think VJ has higher upside in the pros: more athletic, better defensive metrics, better passer. But both Arizona highlights and this current game gives me those vibes.

That said, I think Mathurin is immensely talented but consistency and being a liability on defense has limited him early in his career.

Watch on YouTube

I think VJ has more shot creation ability. Most of Mathurin’s offense comes from kickouts, catch-and-shoots, attacking closeouts, and off-screens, he’s rarely tasked with running PnR or creating off the dribble, unlike VJ. If VJ wants a bigger offensive role, he’ll need to improve in those areas, particularly in pick-and-roll and off-the-dribble creation. He’s shown some upside as a midrange shot creator, but his shooting (38%) and footwork need refinement. That said, I’m fairly confident he can develop into a better finisher in the halfcourt at the NBA level.

[76ciology]

It’s rare to find wings with very good length who can consistently create shots, make tough ones, handle the ball, pass, and defend. If you look at the top players in the league, most are guards, followed by a few bigs, truly elite wings are few and far between. That’s just the reality. You can’t squeeze water from a rock, more often than not, these wings turn out to be Cam Reddish, Kelly Oubre, Jonathan Kuminga, or Harrison Barnes types.

The good news is, the current trend favors 6’4”–6’6” guards who are more effective offensively than lengthy wings while still providing much of the same defensive value

[Arsenal]

Is there anything tangible to quantify this, or are you forced to live in the realm where nothing matters besides measurables because you've tied your anchor to a prospect that doesn't bring anything besides them to the table?

We got eliminated by a team led by 5'11 Jalen Brunson the last time we were in the playoffs. We were eliminated by a team that started 6'0 Kyle Lowry in the playoffs in 2019 and he went on to win a championship.

T-rex 6'4 Andrew Nembhard with a 6'5 wingspan has started every single playoff game for the team that's 2-1 up in the finals.

If you're valuing combine data as the end all be all, you're stuck way behind the curve.

And all of those guys were picked late 1st or early 2nd round. Or are you insinuating it’s a positive to have inferior measurements?

I value both stats AND physical profile, unlike you since you clearly think it’s all about college numbers and everything else is irrelevant.

They were picked late because of stone aged evaluators that thought like you, winning players that were all overlooked for bodybuilding bad basketball player busts.

There's a pyramidal hierarchy in the evaluation process and at the top is always strictly how dominant you were relative to your peers.

Unless you're describing a freak 1 of 1 raw athlete like a Giannis coming from Greece, the combine data should only ever be used to split hairs between similarly tiered prospects.

In the case of Suggs vs Barnes for example. Suggs was ranked higher all year and was probably slightly better at UCONN than Barnes was at Florida State, but in the case of two elite performing college prospects, there was absolutely nothing wrong doing what Masai did and vouching for the 6'8 wing with a 7'2 wingspan.

Now in the case of say Bailey vs Edgecombe. VJ is a lot closer to being a Jalen Suggs level prospect than Ace Bailey is to being a Scottie Barnes level prospect. He's probably closer to a Sekou Doumbouya or a Ziaire Williams.

Drafting someone like Bailey over a Jalen Suggs would be grounds for something more finite than just the termination of your NBA job.

Ok, then let’s take CMB or Jase Richardson at #3 since they had a higher BPM than your boy.

Because college stats are all that matters!

[stormi]

Even I'm getting sick of listening to myself ranting so this is my final post, and then I'll stop harassing the thread.

Is this what we're quantify as "star upside" or is this a statistical anomaly that requires beating the odds to contribute anything at the next level.



You've got an outlier in Cade, who's prospect profile was still so dominant outside of raw assist to tov. Cade was a freakish shooting and slasher forward sized guard.

And then you've got a litany of overdrafted busts.

(AST/TO)

Flagg is at 2.0
Harper is at 1.67
Bailey is at 0.62
VJ is at 1.66
Tre is at 1.50
Kon is at 2.02
Fears is at 1.21
Kasparas is at 1.27

I don't think it's difficult at all to imagine which clump Ace will end up settling in with when it's all said and done.

I would be truly be shocked if the data nerds that run control our scouting ops walked into this landmine in plain sight.

[76ciology]

Just listened to Bodner’s podcast featuring an interview with Edgecombe’s coach. The coach emphasized that Edgecombe is a winning player more of a “cut-the-net” guy than someone who’s going to drop 30 and be flashy. He didn’t really frame him as a star, but rather as someone who contributes to winning. He also mentioned that Edgecombe’s early season shooting struggles were due to adjustments from the weight room and changes to his shooting form. Still, he’s confident Edgecombe will eventually become a 40% 3pt shooter.

[M2J]

Can't wait to see Ace in Pop or Nurse's system. Movement shooters with mid range games work well in both... Particularly athletic ones with long wingspans that get steals and blocks.


Kawhi anyone. Pop won't blow that opportunity.... Too bad their realgm board sucks

[Stanford]

He also compared him to Wade and Westbrook, to be fair.

[mksp]

Gonna be crazy when draft goes Flagg -> VJ -> Harper

[Black Mage]

And this is why I stopped trying to discuss things with you Stormi. You make outlandish statements and when shown to be wrong you just can't admit it.

So go support Kon, not gonna waste my time.

I don't mind residing alone on Kon / VJ > Ace island, I just want arguments in good faith.

The "my guy has star upside because of his wingspan" rebuttal that's being spammed in here is just lazy and low-browed bs, lol.

I have posted a ton in good faith, think Negro and them would vouch for me on that.

[OleSchool]

Can't wait to see Ace in Pop or Nurse's system. Movement shooters with mid range games work well in both... Particularly athletic ones with long wingspans that get steals and blocks.


Kawhi anyone. Pop won't blow that opportunity.... Too bad their realgm board sucks

I do think, that for Ace to reach his full potential, or at least close to it SAS should draft him.

I think any other team drafting Ace we'll be wondering what if....

[mjkvol]

I don't mind residing alone on Kon / VJ > Ace island

Well, you aren't completely alone.

I still put KJ in the Kon / VJ group as well. I'd be thrilled if we walked away with any of them.

[Black Mage]

Kon’s inability to shoot off the dribble is a big reason why he won’t be a primary playmaker in the NBA. Without that ability, athletic defenders will crowd his space and force him to drive, which he won’t be able to do against better, longer athletes.

He’ll then settle into a nice Grayson Allen or Luke Kennard type of role.

There's just nothing statistically about Kon's season that confirms this. Final 25 games of the season:

Kon’s offensive game was fleshed out in this span>> 3Pr dropped to 44.9 (was relied upon much more for creation)

his FT and rim volume jumped significantly to 3.8 ATT/G (+1.1) and 4.7 FTA/G (+2.3)

efficiency leapt significantly, his hustle stats jumped significantly> OREB% to 6.1 (+2.9) & STL% to 2.5 (+0.8)

12.8 BPM, 139 ORTG, 71% TS, 17% AST, 49.3 FTr.

He had the splits 40.6% 3P, 91.4 FT%, the creation 1.8 A:TO, the raw counting stats for PRA fans 17/4.6/3.3

Flashed elite self creation> 73% rim + 90% long-two makes unassisted

The athletic concerns are fair, but he displayed high level scoring and passing and was able to be contribute high impact scaled down role and saw his efficiency ascend when his usage rose.

Everything about KK screams high minute contributor on a championship team.

Kon shot 14% on off the dribble 3's. 14%. He admitted to KOC he's not comfortable shooting off-dribble as evidenced by his Ben Simmons like aversion to attempting them. You cannot call yourself the best shooter in the class when you are afraid to shoot a certain type of shot and when you tried you sucked at it.

If I recall correctly, Ben's explanation at the time was if he knows he can make another type of shot at a high rate he doesn't need to try the shot he's bad at. That worked out really well.

[Jailblazers7]

Kon also said he didn’t have a lot of experience or comfort in PnR before his freshman year but ended the season as a really effective PNR ball handler. Fair to be skeptical that he can develop as an off dribble shooter as a pro but he’s got the tools to at least be an effective off dribble shooter in PnR.

[LeonJordanJr24]

If spurs take ace 2 we grab harper fast and keep it moving.