What is Wrong With Iguodala? Gut Check!

[STChaser]

Ok TK76, I agree that he's the face of this team until we get a better player. But how are we going to get this "better player" so long as we're not in the lottery? Maybe Thaddeus can emerge as that "better player" but that could take at least another two years. Lou Williams is more talented than Iguodala on offense but at 6'1, that's not what I had in mind. I'm finished with dominant little men. I want a powerhouse that won't back down to the Howards and LeBron's of this league. Someone who both physically and athletically can match their intensity.

It would seem that the position to slide this "better player" into would naturally be our void at PF. But realistically, who out there can we bring in to play PF who will be heads and shoulders above Iguodala? Josh Smith - maybe, but not right now? Okafor? Not so sure. Brand? Doesn't look like he's going anywhere. There's a slim chance we get a dominant PF and new face of the franchise via the draft but that means that DiLeo is going to have to really overachieve and find us a real diamond in the rough at pick 16 or 17. Chances are unlikely. I've always advocated winning by committee but right now, I'm starting to reconsider this. I want a balanced offense but I also want someone who's physically gifted enough to show up an shut down the egomaniacs in this league like LeBron. Serious, our next PF better bring attitude and toughness to this squad because our frontcourt completely lacks cojones.

STChaser

[SendEm]

We need a Kevin Martin/Brandon Roy type as our best non PG perimeter player that's going to bring his offense no matter who is guarding him. Too many Iggy fans are making excuses for Iggy's poor half court scoring ability but paying him $57+ million isn't going to magically instill him with 3 point shooting ability and/or half court penetration ability. The worst part is that Iggy's scouting report has revealed that his effectiveness comes in the middle of the court. If you pay attention to any plays that he makes while dribbling the ball those plays are to be found in the center of the floor (pull up jump shots, secondary transition penetration attempts, half court penetration, etc.). Iggy runs to the middle of the floor as a crutch. The simplest way that I can explain this to the casual fan is by presenting a question. How many times have you seen Iggy drive the baseline and score this season? Do you remember seeing any reverse layup attempts ever?

For the record the middle of the floor is the portion of the court where the paint is to be found plus maybe a foot or two on each side of the paint extended vertically forming a lane.

[Sixercise]

We need a Kevin Martin/Brandon Roy type as our best non PG perimeter player that's going to bring his offense no matter who is guarding him. Too many Iggy fans are making excuses for Iggy's poor half court scoring ability but paying him $57+ million isn't going to magically instill him with 3 point shooting ability and/or half court penetration ability. The worst part is that Iggy's scouting report has revealed that his effectiveness comes in the middle of the court. If you pay attention to any plays that he makes while dribbling the ball those plays are to be found in the center of the floor (pull up jump shots, secondary transition penetration attempts, half court penetration, etc.). Iggy runs to the middle of the floor as a crutch. The simplest way that I can explain this to the casual fan is by presenting a question. How many times have you seen Iggy drive the baseline and score this season? Do you remember seeing any reverse layup attempts ever?

I'll bet you a stack that you'll get what you ask for & more once we get our big man.


Time and time again, I find it amusing how you label us so-called Iggy fans.

Oh, and just for the record, out of the three players you mentioned, WHO MADE THE PLAYOFFS?

[mmh119]

For the record the middle of the floor is the portion of the court where the paint is to be found plus maybe a foot or two on each side of the paint extended vertically forming a lane.

Thank you for explaining the paint area to all of us "casual fans." Without this insightful post I don't know how we ever would of found it. I know I always just thought it was there so they knew where to put HipHop's trampolin.

[SendEm]

-= original quote snipped =-


Oh, and just for the record, out of the three players you mentioned, WHO MADE THE PLAYOFFS?

[SendEm]

-= original quote snipped =-



Thank you for explaining the paint area to all of us "casual fans." Without this insightful post I don't know how we ever would of found it. I know I always just thought it was there so they knew where to put HipHop's trampolin.

If you must employ sarcasm at least execute it well.... YOU FAIL!

[tk76]

Ok TK76, I agree that he's the face of this team until we get a better player. But how are we going to get this "better player" so long as we're not in the lottery? ...

...It would seem that the position to slide this "better player" into would naturally be our void at PF. But realistically, who out there can we bring in to play PF who will be heads and shoulders above Iguodala? ...
... I've always advocated winning by committee but right now, I'm starting to reconsider this. I want a balanced offense but I also want someone who's physically gifted enough to show up an shut down the egomaniacs in this league like LeBron. Serious, our next PF better bring attitude and toughness to this squad because our frontcourt completely lacks cojones.

STChaser

At the time of the AI trade I wanted us to tank in order to get a good shot at a top 3 pick/future superstar. That boat has sailed. My point is that Iguodala can be one of the three stars a team tends to need to be a contender, and having Iguodala will definitely NOT hurt our chances of building a contender (unless you plan on tanking.)

Getting more stars will be a challenge for Ed, but we have a good group of young players, cap space and an extra number one pick. Vet stars are shipped out for a couple of picks, a prospect and capspace every year. I expect that is the most likely route for the Sixers to acquire a frontline star. I agree that this summer may not yield that star, so we need to be patient.

[tk76]

Sendem, primary ball handlers are supposed to try to stay in the middle third of the court in order to help balance the floor and be in position to get back on defense. That means his drives will usually be initiated from the middle of the floor.

When Miller or Iguodala go in the post (and attack from the wing or baseline) another player needs to rotate up top to balance the floor. Unfortunatley, when that man is Carney or Green it often results in a badly missed jumpers that turn into fast breaks for the other team- but that's another story...

Players that attack from the baseline (and often need to use a reverse) are not the primary ball handlers. Iguodala attacked from the baseline and wing early in his career, but now his offensive role has been expanded- and Thad and Willie run the baseline.

[SendEm]

Sendem, primary ball handlers are supposed to try to stay in the middle third of the court in order to help balance the floor and be in position to get back on defense. That means his drives will usually be initiated from the middle of the floor.

When Miller or Iguodala go in the post (and attack from the wing or baseline) another player needs to rotate up top to balance the floor. Unfortunatly, when that man is Carney or Green it often results in a badly missed jumpers that turn into fast breaks for the other team- but that's another story...

Players that attack from the baseline (and often need to use a reverse) are not the primary ball handlers. Iguodala attacked from the baseline and wing early in his career, but now his offensive role has been expanded- and Thad and Willie run the baseline.

You are spot on with the description of the role that he plays for this team BUT that is also his skill set. He is doing what he is MOST effective at. The role that he plays for this team combined with his skill set makes him a difficult player to draw direct comparisons with other players. As mentioned before Ron Harper, Kendall Gill are close but they were both more aggressive. With that said, we already have a PG to operate in the middle of the floor, we SHOULD not need Miller to take as many shots as he does in the half court offense even though it's due to him picking up the slack from there not being anyone in the starting lineup who can get off an open look at the basket CONSISTENTLY besides Willie Green.

Iggy is NOT the sort of player that you want to build a franchise around as the playmaker. His ability as a scoring threat helps his passing. When he's no longer a threat as a scorer his assists are down. Meaning that one defender can take him COMPLETELY out of a game by pressuring that weak handle and having superior defensive foot speed. Iggy will need to be a player that can be effective filling the lanes and creating from the wing while STILL getting his 19ppg. I don't see Iggy getting 19ppg while being called upon to FINISH plays and handle the ball less in terms of being a facilitator. You have to look at Iggy's games and see just how many points he scores off of the fastbreak and off of pull up jumpers from the middle of the floor. That's not enough dexterity in the half court. Fastbreak dunks and open pull up looks are not to be found in the playoffs, I believe that I have been saying that since January and I really don't want to be proven right because if Iggy doesn't do well the Sixers do not do well and I want to win.

I believe that what we have found out about Iguodala since Iverson left is not how good Iggy is, but how misused and timid he was while Iverson was here. I do recall Iggy playing some at the PG position while AI was here but he was still timid taking a backseat. Also Webber spent a great deal of the game in the middle of the floor directing traffic while holding the ball looking to make a pass or shoot that silly flat footed jump shot.

Also if you take notice Iggy and Lou Williams do not compliment each other on the court well. You do not see many plays where they have any chemistry at all this season. So I don't believe that Iverson and Iggy would have done well even till this very day if Iggy were allowed to be the ball handler/pull-up jump shooter/fast break dunker that he is today.

Also I think that Iggy is Doug Christie but a little more developed on offense/instilled with more confidence and responsibility by his organization.

[eyeatoma]

Bill Simmons has ranked Iguodala as the 14th best player in the league this year, in the MVP race:

14. Andre Iguodala
Of all the dummies who turned down lucrative extensions last summer, he's the only one who made himself more money during the season. We knew he was a gifted defender and open-court player, but who knew that he'd turn into a Go-To Guy, inherit the "A.I." nickname from Iverson and get the beaten-down Philly fans excited about hoops again? Banner year for him.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/080416

God I just want this offseason to role around already. (After our legenday playoff run ) I'm so eager to find out, if we resign Iggy, and for how much, as well as what our FA moves are going to be...

[SendEm]

The problem was that some of the great players and teams turned up the intensity towards the end of the season to the level of "playoff basketball." Iggy folded under the pressure into the playoffs. Lebron embarrassed Iggy and so did Tayshaun...

[bernal100]

I love Iggy. I disagree with Send em, who hates his butt, and wants him gone. But I disagree with Simmons here. Iguodala has not in my mind proved himself this season, and has made more money per se..
I think our playoff result has as much to do with the play of Andre Miller, and the good season off the bench of Lou Williams as much as it also has to do with teams like Indy..with Injuries, and New Jersey just self-exploding as it does anything else.


Like I said, I like Iguodala. And I want him to stay here. But I still say that a 5 year deal starting at 10 million with annual raises is more than fair for a player with no # 1 mind set. And a player who has not made an All Star game. BTW, can someone tell me what a 5 year deal starting out at 10 million with raises comes out to ? I think it is more than 57 million dollars. If so, like I said,,,more than fair.

[Dedicated_76ers_fan]

You mean Kevin Martin's contract.

Martin>>>>>>>>>Iggy.

[tk76]

I don't understand this sudden presumption that Martin is the far superior player.

Both were on bad teams, but Iguodala's made the playofs and he hwas shut down by Prince/Detroit.

No doubt Martin is a good and effecient scorer (although less so this past year with a career low 45% FG%) but its not like he led his team anywhere, and as a shooter, his numbers will go down if he is on a better team and gets less touches. Why should he get the benefit of the doubt when he leads a lousy team, and yet not Iguodala?

I realize that AIG had a horrible playoff series, but saying he is not in the same league as Martin sounds a bit myopic.

[SendEm]

I don't understand this sudden presumption that Martin is the far superior player.

Both were on bad teams, but Iguodala's made the playofs and he hwas shut down by Prince/Detroit.

No doubt Martin is a good and effecient scorer (although less so this past year with a career low 45% FG%) but its not like he led his team anywhere, and as a shooter, his numbers will go down if he is on a better team and gets less touches. Why should he get the benefit of the doubt when he leads a lousy team, and yet not Iguodala?

I realize that AIG had a horrible playoff series, but saying he is not in the same league as Martin sounds a bit myopic.

Any argument that can be used to place Iggy in the same category as Kevin Martin could have also been used to place Iggy in the same category as Brandon Roy until Roy made the ALL STAR game this year. Ultimately it just simply comes down to Kevin MArtin being the better basketball player in a tougher conference with other talented basketball players on his team. Iggy's numbers were low all the while he played with talented players, AI, Webber, and Korver. Martin plays with another 20 point scorer and a bunch of double figure scorers and still gets the job done. Iggy just hogs the ball and pads his stats...Kevin Martin would probably average 28ppg if he swapped teams with Iggy.

[Dedicated_76ers_fan]

Let me put it this way. Kevin Martin is a 20+ PPG point player. He's a difference maker on the offensive end of the court. Iguodala doesn't make the difference. We actually won those games against the Pistons when he sucked the ball.

[freshie2]

...and they were in the playoffs due to his play in upset wins over Phoenix, San Antonio, Boston. His play dropped off once they got in the playoffs, and he had a bad series matched up against Prince.

He's a piece with high value, as is Andre Miller. Moving one of them may be the key to a quick jump back into legitimacy. Only time will tell, but let's not kill Iguodala for turning down a contract and trying to make more money...most of us would try to maximize our earning potential as well. If he's a jerk with the contract in the off season, or if they max him out, then complain. Nothing has happened at this point, so why the animosity??

Can't buy Martin as being any more than a scorer (45%/40%...not a super scorer) and significantly better than Iguodala. Roles are different, skill sets are different...does Martin on this team take the 08 Sixers farther than Iguodala?? No. If they have a combo swing player who can contribute like Iguodala, then an above average SG like Martin makes sense here...otherwise the comparison is difficult to make, and the all around game definitely would appear to favor Iguodala.

[The Sixer Fixer]

I just don't buy this theory that Simmons and many other people have regarding Iguodala and him becomming this new player who deserves to get paid like a star. Did Iguodala really perfrom better than he did last year after Iverson was dealt? You tell me based on the 59 games post-Iverson...

06-07 - 19.6 PPG - 5.5 RPG - 6.0 APG - 44.5% FG - 83% FT - 2.0 SPG
07-08 - 19.9 PPG - 5.4 RPG - 4.8 APG - 45.6% FG - 72% FT - 2.1 SPG

Those number are pretty similar and I would argue he was slightly better last year in those final 59 games. They are pretty identical except for the big difference in FT% and Assists.

Now I'm not going to say those are not good numbers, but SendEm is right on one thing. It really helps Andre's numbers that he gets to handle the ball so much due to our lack of true go to guys on offense. If he didn't control the ball so much the PPG and APG would most definetly go down IMO. The other theory is that Andre's PPG would go up with someone else to draw the D attention, but the fact that Andre isn't a great jump-shooter I think refutes that theory. Those are the types of shots that he would get more of (lets face it, he's got to be in the bottom 20% of the leagues SG/SF's at getting to the rim and finishing). That is the part to Andre's game that pisses me off the most. I can't believe that a guy with his athletic ability just can't finish in traffic. The old AI was a midget compared this the new AI and he could finish in traffic with the best of them. He's also extreemly slow off the dribble compared to other SG/SF and that's a big part of his problem at converting close to the basket. The other problem is his handle gets exposed when he has to dribble in traffic.

The point is, I'm just not willing to pay him more than 10 mil/yr when we still need to find a #1 scorer and it's not Andre. He deserves a contract in line with guys like Martin, G. Wallace, Josh Howard, Prince, M. Miller, Turkoglu, Diaw, Ginobili, and C. Butler. He definitley should not be paid more per year than those guys. Most of them are around, or under, 10 mil/yr and have done more in their careers that Andre has so far.

[SendEm]

I just don't buy this theory that Simmons and many other people have regarding Iguodala and him becomming this new player who deserves to get paid like a star. Did Iguodala really perfrom better than he did last year after Iverson was dealt? You tell me based on the 59 games post-Iverson...

06-07 - 19.6 PPG - 5.5 RPG - 6.0 APG - 44.5% FG - 83% FT - 2.0 SPG
07-08 - 19.9 PPG - 5.4 RPG - 4.8 APG - 45.6% FG - 72% FT - 2.1 SPG

Those number are pretty similar and I would argue he was slightly better last year in those final 59 games. They are pretty identical except for the big difference in FT% and Assists.

Now I'm not going to say those are not good numbers, but SendEm is right on one thing. It really helps Andre's numbers that he gets to handle the ball so much due to our lack of true go to guys on offense. If he didn't control the ball so much the PPG and APG would most definetly go down IMO. The other theory is that Andre's PPG would go up with someone else to draw the D attention, but the fact that Andre isn't a great jump-shooter I think refutes that theory. Those are the types of shots that he would get more of (lets face it, he's got to be in the bottom 20% of the leagues SG/SF's at getting to the rim and finishing). That is the part to Andre's game that pisses me off the most. I can't believe that a guy with his athletic ability just can't finish in traffic. The old AI was a midget compared this the new AI and he could finish in traffic with the best of them. He's also extreemly slow off the dribble compared to other SG/SF and that's a big part of his problem at converting close to the basket. The other problem is his handle gets exposed when he has to dribble in traffic.

The point is, I'm just not willing to pay him more than 10 mil/yr when we still need to find a #1 scorer and it's not Andre. He deserves a contract in line with guys like Martin, G. Wallace, Josh Howard, Prince, M. Miller, Turkoglu, Diaw, Ginobili, and C. Butler. He definitley should not be paid more per year than those guys. Most of them are around, or under, 10 mil/yr and have done more in their careers that Andre has so far.

You have officially graduated the University of SendEM.
Your post involved all of the elements from Iggy's skill set, to his production, to his role on his team. Your posting style has now been elevated to the top 1%. People will now hate you and throw stones. Be vigilant.