Raptors or Sixers.. Who's the stronger/better team?

[BlackIce]

lol

[bebopdeluxe]

BlackIce:

Actually, yes...I can debate Bargs' potential. He hasn't done SQUAT yet.

And I intentionally left Bosh and Iguodala off when talking about young players with upside. I think they're pretty well established - don't you?

[geiger]

Can't say Bargs hasn't done squat. He put up 12 points a game as a 20 year old. Had a bad year last season, but they played him out of position most of the time. He still has a lot of talent and was the number 1 overall pick two years ago. He's 22. Their GM is one of the best talent evaluators in the league and you have to believe he knows more than you do. He seems to believe Bargs still has potential and so do most NBA scouts and GMs. He might end up being a bust, sure. But Thad Young might end up being a bust as well. Can't count out a 22 year old kid with that much talent because you believe that double figure scoring in under 24 minutes a game is doing squat.

[BlackIce]

BlackIce:

Actually, yes...I can debate Bargs' potential. He hasn't done SQUAT yet.

And I intentionally left Bosh and Iguodala off when talking about young players with upside. I think they're pretty well established - don't you?

2nd in rookie of the year voting? Shown signs (albeit rare) of brilliance, where he pops off for 20 5 and 5. When his shot is falling he is very hard to stop, his versatility as a 7 footer that can shoot is a match up problem. On the defensive end his man d is pretty good and his help d is horrible. If he can improve his d...like I said he has potential. Will he reach it, that is another debate. How can argue that Bargs has no upside?

As for your other point yes I agree both are well established I didn't know thats why you left them off.

[BakersDozen]

first off Im a Celtics fan so I dont really care about either teams. That being said I like Philly's chances better then Toronto's. If O'Neal can stay healthy for 82 games maybe I'll think differently but I just dont see that happening.

[GreenWithEnvy]

The Raptors are soft, can't defend, and just acquired a guy who can't stay healthy year in and year out.

The Sixers are hard nosed, defensive oriented team who just got a guy who, up until last season, was one of the most reliable post pplayers in the league...

this isn't very difficult.


Miller = Calderon - They are both great distributors and leaders and can score the ball just as well
Iggy >> Parker- No contest. better at aboslutely everything except for teh 3 ball, which Iggy has been workin on every year.
Young >> Moon- Thad is the far more complete player, even at his age
Brand > Bosh- Brand is the better defender and more physically and mentally tough player.
Dalembert < O'Neal - Oneal has teh better offensive game but can't stay healthy so im only givin him a slight edge.

Bench
Williams, Green, Rush, Evans, Ratliff > Kapono, Barnagni, Jawai, who ever else - the Raptors have one of the worst benches in the league. They can shoot it but thats about it

and ill take Mo over Sam.

[Loose Cannon]

I realize that Philadelphia is in fact better than Toronto, but the match-up comparison is a horrible argument.

[GreenWithEnvy]

whys that? on paper Philly is obviously better. How do u gauge it if u don't look at matchups?

[Loose Cannon]

You can look at match-ups, but it's far too arbitrary. When comparing teams, you generally want to compare how well the team meshes and plays together in contrast because match-ups are very small in scope and only deals with one-on-one matchups, and that's not how basketball is played (unless we're talking about Denver, but that's digressing).

[GreenWithEnvy]

well i did address that in the first two sentences. it doesn't need to go much further than that


Philly is an efficient team who plays defense and is mentally and physically strong. Toronto is the complete opposite of that.

[IversonsMother]

I'm gonna have to say that Bosh is just as good, if not better than Brand.

[geiger]

Bosh is different from Brand. He is younger. Has more upside. No injury history. It's not even debatable. He is more versatile and a better outside shooter and overall scorer. Brand is better defensively and is a better post scorer, but given a choice, obviously we would take the 23 year old, 7-0 Bosh. However, that does not mean that Bosh today is a better fit on our team than Brand is. Nor does it mean Brand would be a better fit on the current Toronto team. Toronto's season will depend in large on O'Neal staying healthy and being able to be an 18 and 10 guy or better.

[eyeatoma]

Bosh is different from Brand. He is younger. Has more upside. No injury history. It's not even debatable. He is more versatile and a better outside shooter and overall scorer. Brand is better defensively and is a better post scorer, but given a choice, obviously we would take the 23 year old, 7-0 Bosh. However, that does not mean that Bosh today is a better fit on our team than Brand is. Nor does it mean Brand would be a better fit on the current Toronto team. Toronto's season will depend in large on O'Neal staying healthy and being able to be an 18 and 10 guy or better.

Uhhh, no injury history for Bosh?

You obviously don't follow NBA players fitness much, because for the last 3 years Bosh has missed an average of 13 games per season...

He missed 12 in 05, 13 in 06, and 15 in 07...Notice a growing trend? All three years have been a problem with his knees I beleive, definitely sure thats been the case for the last 2 years.

Infact people from the raptors board were concerned that Bosh might have needed major surgery last year... Its not very encouraging when a 24 year old player is already having knee issues.

That being said, he hasn't missed significant time, and Bosh does still have tremendous upside. He might still yet become a top 3 PF in the league if you go by his dramatic improvement on the defensive end during this years Olympics.

But, Bosh does have an injury history...

[geiger]

In that case, nearly every player in the NBA has serious injury history. If missing 12, 13, and 15 games is the same as missing 74 games in a season, then you got me. And before that, Brand also had seasons where he missed 8 games, 19 games, and 13 games, so I guess if Bosh has a serious injury history than Brand is a dead man walking. I however don't view missing 10 to 15 games because you got nicked up playing out of position as a serious injury history - in light of guys like Iverson and Barkley, who aslo missed their fair share of games. But I do view tearing an achillies, one of the most devastating injuries in professional sports, as a significant injury history.

[geiger]

And for the record, in 2006 Bosh missed time with a sprained knee he sustained in a fall and MRIs showed absolutely no structural damage. In 2007, he missed time with a sprained groin, not knee problems.

[eyeatoma]

And for the record, in 2006 Bosh missed time with a sprained knee he sustained in a fall and MRIs showed absolutely no structural damage. In 2007, he missed time with a sprained groin, not knee problems.

Not true...

Bosh was sidelined with a season ending injury although minor in 2006. He did miss games due to a groin strain but prior to that in October 2007 he sat out because of reaggravating his knee...Afterwards he had the groin injury and then in March 2008 he sat out a couple of games after once again having knee problems...

Here is a list of titles from the articles that talk about his injuries...

Some Progress With His Knee Saturday Mar. 9, 2008
Knee Still Sore Mar. 6, 2008
MRI On Knee Negative Mar. 3, 2008
# Raptors Not Taking Chances With Knee Oct. 17, 2007
# Knee Improving Oct. 14, 2007
# Knee Improving Oct. 14, 2007
# Misses Exhibition Game Thursday Oct. 12, 2007
# Battling a Sore Knee Oct. 9, 2007
# Looks Rusty in Preseason Opener Oct. 7, 2007
# Lingering Foot Injury Won't Hold Him Back Sep. 29, 2007

Link (Scroll down to the fantasy news section on his profile): http://www.nba.com/playerfile/chris_bosh/

Note the amount of caution the medical staff is taking with his knee as well as key words such as, "Sore Knee", "Lingering Foot Injury", MRI...These are all minor injuries, but sore knees can definitely lead to more serious problems down the road. One of my good friends is an avid Raptor fan, and even he was saying at the beginning of the season how worried he was about Bosh's knee problems...

He has not missed significant time, but he has had issues with his knee that were serious enough for the Raptors medical staff to be extremely cautious.

You're right many players in the league do have injury problems. If you miss more than five games due to injuries you have some issues dude, stop denying the fact that Bosh does have knee concerns.

When the hell did I ever say missing 12, 13, 15 games is the same as missing almost an entire season? Seriously, quote this for me...Stopping putting words into my mouth.

I agree, Brand did have a very serious injury last year, I'm not disputing that. All I'm saying is, don't go saying Bosh has had NO injury history, when he clearly has over the last 3 years. He played below 70 games for the last 2 years...Does that seem normal to you? At 24 years old?

[geiger]

Come on - season ending injury in 2006? A little misleading don't you think. You mean he had a minor injury at the very end of the 2006 season and set out a few games? Yes. That did happen.

Siting articles that his MRI is good and he's knee is well doesn't show he is injured and articles that say he's sore don't show injury history either.

Yes, sore knees can lead to problems, but that is probably an issue almost every big man in the NBA faces. Dalembert has missed an entire year because of a blown out knee before and a number of games in nearly every season except last because of knee problems.

So yes, Bosh and every single player in the NBA has some injury concerns because he has missed more than 5 games in a season. Guys on the Sixers with serious injury concerns include Dalembert who has missed an entire year, Brand, who has missed parts of 3 seasons and then missed almost the entire year last year, Louis Williams, Reggie Evans, Kareem Rush, Royal Ivey, etc.

I believe I said Bosh has no SERIOUS injury history as opposed to Brand, who had a blown out achillies heal last season, one of the most devastating injuries an NBA player can have.