ImageImageImage

2018-2019 College Basketball / '19 NBA Draft Thread

Moderators: HartfordWhalers, BullyKing, Foshan, sixers hoops, Sixerscan

LloydFree
RealGM
Posts: 15,767
And1: 11,567
Joined: Aug 20, 2012
Location: Somewhere near the Jersey Turnpike, between exit 4 and 15E

Re: 2018-2019 College Basketball / '19 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#1601 » by LloydFree » Tue May 21, 2019 4:07 am

PhilasFinest wrote:
LloydFree wrote:At #24, it's hard to expect to get a great player. But there are a number of players being mocked in the 2nd half of the 1st round who I doubt are even service-able NBA bench players:

Cam Johnson - Poor man's Justin Jackson
Grant Williams - Poor Man's Jared Sulinger
Goga Bitadze - Poor Man's Alex Len

Any one of them is a waste of the Caphold associated with the pick.


I really don't get the hate for Cam Johnson.

I understand his ceiling is limited and he's an upperclassmen.....but at the end of the 1st/Early 2nd?
Dude has been a knockdown perimeter shooter essentially his entire career. Thats a coveted NBA skill. I think you could do much worse then bringing in a guy with the ability to become a role player who specializes in knocking down the open 3 with some size.

Now I personally would rather draft someone like Norvelle,Okpala or Louis King with our 1st.....but I cant see how Johnson isn't draft able. If his shot translates, I certainly think its worth a 2nd round pick.

He's strictly a college player. I'm not a fan of using 1st round picks on 23 year old, one dimensional players. He's not a good enough ballhandler or quick enough to be a guard in the NBA, and he's too weak to defend forwards in the NBA. And a player that is a 5th year senior should be a bit more dominant against college competition.
Fischella wrote:I think none of you guys that are pro-Embiid no how basketball works today.. is way easier to win it all with Omer Asik than Olajuwon.
Actually if you ask me which Center I want for my perfect championship caliber team, I will chose Asik hands down
No-Man
RealGM
Posts: 14,879
And1: 3,479
Joined: Feb 11, 2012

Re: 2018-2019 College Basketball / '19 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#1602 » by No-Man » Tue May 21, 2019 7:30 am

LloydFree wrote:At #24, it's hard to expect to get a great player. But there are a number of players being mocked in the 2nd half of the 1st round who I doubt are even service-able NBA bench players:

Cam Johnson - Poor man's Justin Jackson
Grant Williams - Poor Man's Jared Sulinger
Goga Bitadze - Poor Man's Alex Len

Any one of them is a waste of the Caphold associated with the pick.

These are terrible comps
Kolkmania
Analyst
Posts: 3,387
And1: 1,664
Joined: Feb 11, 2015

Re: 2018-2019 College Basketball / '19 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#1603 » by Kolkmania » Tue May 21, 2019 9:15 am

I would love to get a dynamic scorer, but all of the realistic options, Nowell, Johnson, Powell, Ponds, Edwards, THT have certain warts that I can't get over. Either their defensive limitations are too much for me compared to their offensive skills or they're flat out not good enough offensively.

The only two that I'm still interested in for our first three picks are Zach Norvell and Tyler Herro. I would love to have a swing at Jordan Poole with our late 2nd round pick.
Kolkmania
Analyst
Posts: 3,387
And1: 1,664
Joined: Feb 11, 2015

Re: 2018-2019 College Basketball / '19 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#1604 » by Kolkmania » Tue May 21, 2019 9:42 am

I have no idea what I'm missing, but based on all the mock drafts Chuma Okeke (30 the earliest I've seen) should be available for us and imo he's a no-brainer.

Excellent defensively, he has the size and wingspan for a wing. His hands are Convington-esque, his rotations and help defense instincts are fantastic and laterally he's at least passable.
Offensively he's obviously not a shot creator, but a 6'7'' guy who's willing to shoot, cuts at the right moment and moves the ball. Guys who can shoot and are capable of dribbling past a hard close out are really valuable.

Can't imagine that teams are hesitant to invest him because of the injury, certainly not in the 20's.
LloydFree
RealGM
Posts: 15,767
And1: 11,567
Joined: Aug 20, 2012
Location: Somewhere near the Jersey Turnpike, between exit 4 and 15E

Re: 2018-2019 College Basketball / '19 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#1605 » by LloydFree » Tue May 21, 2019 11:03 am

[quote="Kolkmania" 8]I have no idea what I'm missing, but based on all the mock drafts Chuma Okeke (30 the earliest I've seen) should be available for us and imo he's a no-brainer.

Excellent defensively, he has the size and wingspan for a wing. His hands are Convington-esque, his rotations and help defense instincts are fantastic and laterally he's at least passable.
Offensively he's obviously not a shot creator, but a 6'7'' guy who's willing to shoot, cuts at the right moment and moves the ball. Guys who can shoot and are capable of dribbling past a hard close out are really valuable.

Can't imagine that teams are hesitant to invest him because of the injury, certainly not in the 20's.[/quote]
He's not excellent defensively.

He doesn't move well enough laterally to guard NBA wings and he isn't big enough to be an advantage at PF.
Fischella wrote:I think none of you guys that are pro-Embiid no how basketball works today.. is way easier to win it all with Omer Asik than Olajuwon.
Actually if you ask me which Center I want for my perfect championship caliber team, I will chose Asik hands down
LloydFree
RealGM
Posts: 15,767
And1: 11,567
Joined: Aug 20, 2012
Location: Somewhere near the Jersey Turnpike, between exit 4 and 15E

Re: 2018-2019 College Basketball / '19 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#1606 » by LloydFree » Tue May 21, 2019 11:03 am

Double
Fischella wrote:I think none of you guys that are pro-Embiid no how basketball works today.. is way easier to win it all with Omer Asik than Olajuwon.
Actually if you ask me which Center I want for my perfect championship caliber team, I will chose Asik hands down
Kolkmania
Analyst
Posts: 3,387
And1: 1,664
Joined: Feb 11, 2015

Re: 2018-2019 College Basketball / '19 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#1607 » by Kolkmania » Tue May 21, 2019 11:13 am

LloydFree wrote:[quote="Kolkmania" 8]I have no idea what I'm missing, but based on all the mock drafts Chuma Okeke (30 the earliest I've seen) should be available for us and imo he's a no-brainer.

Excellent defensively, he has the size and wingspan for a wing. His hands are Convington-esque, his rotations and help defense instincts are fantastic and laterally he's at least passable.
Offensively he's obviously not a shot creator, but a 6'7'' guy who's willing to shoot, cuts at the right moment and moves the ball. Guys who can shoot and are capable of dribbling past a hard close out are really valuable.

Can't imagine that teams are hesitant to invest him because of the injury, certainly not in the 20's.[/quote]
He's not excellent defensively.

He doesn't move well enough laterally to guard NBA wings and he isn't big enough to be an advantage at PF.[/quote]


Like I mentioned he's obviously not a lock-down defender, but do you really think he's too slow to guard NBA wings? I didn't get that feeling when I watch him. Do you have some specific games in which he really struggled on the perimeter?
Kobblehead
RealGM
Posts: 39,972
And1: 19,063
Joined: Apr 15, 2010
 

Re: 2018-2019 College Basketball / '19 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#1608 » by Kobblehead » Tue May 21, 2019 12:38 pm

Kolkmania wrote:I have no idea what I'm missing, but based on all the mock drafts Chuma Okeke (30 the earliest I've seen) should be available for us and imo he's a no-brainer.

Excellent defensively, he has the size and wingspan for a wing. His hands are Convington-esque, his rotations and help defense instincts are fantastic and laterally he's at least passable.
Offensively he's obviously not a shot creator, but a 6'7'' guy who's willing to shoot, cuts at the right moment and moves the ball. Guys who can shoot and are capable of dribbling past a hard close out are really valuable.

Can't imagine that teams are hesitant to invest him because of the injury, certainly not in the 20's.


How much value are these defensive specialists with poor point production really providing, though?

If he's a better shooting OG Anunoby or a better defense Justin Anderson, I guess I see why we'd want him.

I would just rather swing at guys with scoring variety.
Kobblehead
RealGM
Posts: 39,972
And1: 19,063
Joined: Apr 15, 2010
 

Re: 2018-2019 College Basketball / '19 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#1609 » by Kobblehead » Tue May 21, 2019 12:50 pm

I've been pumping up these guys for like two years, but why are Tres Tinkle and Terence Davis collectively ignored by the draft community?

Tinkle is one of the more complete prospects in the draft class.

Davis is a lockdown defender with point production.
No-Man
RealGM
Posts: 14,879
And1: 3,479
Joined: Feb 11, 2012

Re: 2018-2019 College Basketball / '19 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#1610 » by No-Man » Tue May 21, 2019 12:59 pm

Chuma is a way worse athlete than Cov and Cov struggles with premier athletes, I think Okeke is more a Dudley type if his shooting continues to improve, team defender, smart, but nowhere near a stopper

still, easily will take him in the 20s
LloydFree
RealGM
Posts: 15,767
And1: 11,567
Joined: Aug 20, 2012
Location: Somewhere near the Jersey Turnpike, between exit 4 and 15E

Re: 2018-2019 College Basketball / '19 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#1611 » by LloydFree » Tue May 21, 2019 12:59 pm

Kolkmania wrote:
LloydFree wrote:[quote="Kolkmania" 8]I have no idea what I'm missing, but based on all the mock drafts Chuma Okeke (30 the earliest I've seen) should be available for us and imo he's a no-brainer.

Excellent defensively, he has the size and wingspan for a wing. His hands are Convington-esque, his rotations and help defense instincts are fantastic and laterally he's at least passable.
Offensively he's obviously not a shot creator, but a 6'7'' guy who's willing to shoot, cuts at the right moment and moves the ball. Guys who can shoot and are capable of dribbling past a hard close out are really valuable.

Can't imagine that teams are hesitant to invest him because of the injury, certainly not in the 20's.[/quote]
He's not excellent defensively.

He doesn't move well enough laterally to guard NBA wings and he isn't big enough to be an advantage at PF.[/quote][/quote]

Like I mentioned he's obviously not a lock-down defender, but do you really think he's too slow to guard NBA wings? I didn't get that feeling when I watch him. Do you have some specific games in which he really struggled on the perimeter?[/quote]

Yes. He had trouble staying in front of UNC's forwards in space. His lateral movement is more PF grade than SG/SF grade. Offensively, his game is stretch 4 like. He's a good shooter and has good post footwork. He isn't an NBA wing. He's an undersized stretch 4.

I've seen him compared to Robert Covington multiple times in this thread and I think it's a faulty comp. He isn't close to the kind of shooter Covington is, and he isn't nearly as quick. Covington doesn't have anywhere near the offensive footwork though. They're not similar players, IMO.
Fischella wrote:I think none of you guys that are pro-Embiid no how basketball works today.. is way easier to win it all with Omer Asik than Olajuwon.
Actually if you ask me which Center I want for my perfect championship caliber team, I will chose Asik hands down
Kolkmania
Analyst
Posts: 3,387
And1: 1,664
Joined: Feb 11, 2015

Re: 2018-2019 College Basketball / '19 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#1612 » by Kolkmania » Tue May 21, 2019 1:07 pm

Kobblehead wrote:
Kolkmania wrote:I have no idea what I'm missing, but based on all the mock drafts Chuma Okeke (30 the earliest I've seen) should be available for us and imo he's a no-brainer.

Excellent defensively, he has the size and wingspan for a wing. His hands are Convington-esque, his rotations and help defense instincts are fantastic and laterally he's at least passable.
Offensively he's obviously not a shot creator, but a 6'7'' guy who's willing to shoot, cuts at the right moment and moves the ball. Guys who can shoot and are capable of dribbling past a hard close out are really valuable.

Can't imagine that teams are hesitant to invest him because of the injury, certainly not in the 20's.


How much value are these defensive specialists with poor point production really providing, though?

If he's a better shooting OG Anunoby or a better defense Justin Anderson, I guess I see why we'd want him.

I would just rather swing at guys with scoring variety.


Depends on where the poor point production is coming from.

Is the guy not capable of scoring, or does the team have better options to score? When the opponent has to respect you on the perimeter and you're capable of making simple reads when the ball is in your hands, then the value is sky high imo.

OG is an entirely different defensive prospect than Okeke (far more reliable on athleticism and strength). But offensively I have more faith in Okeke. OG couldn't dribble twice without bouncing it off his feet and his shot has always looked really iffy.

What do you mean with guys with more scoring variety? Like primary or secondary initiator types? Because sure, I'd love to get one of those with our pick. Don't think it's realistic to get one of those though, certainly not one who is hideable on defense.
Kolkmania
Analyst
Posts: 3,387
And1: 1,664
Joined: Feb 11, 2015

Re: 2018-2019 College Basketball / '19 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#1613 » by Kolkmania » Tue May 21, 2019 1:47 pm

LloydFree wrote:
Kolkmania wrote:
LloydFree wrote:[quote="Kolkmania" 8]I have no idea what I'm missing, but based on all the mock drafts Chuma Okeke (30 the earliest I've seen) should be available for us and imo he's a no-brainer.

Excellent defensively, he has the size and wingspan for a wing. His hands are Convington-esque, his rotations and help defense instincts are fantastic and laterally he's at least passable.
Offensively he's obviously not a shot creator, but a 6'7'' guy who's willing to shoot, cuts at the right moment and moves the ball. Guys who can shoot and are capable of dribbling past a hard close out are really valuable.

Can't imagine that teams are hesitant to invest him because of the injury, certainly not in the 20's.[/quote]
He's not excellent defensively.

He doesn't move well enough laterally to guard NBA wings and he isn't big enough to be an advantage at PF.[/quote][/quote]

Like I mentioned he's obviously not a lock-down defender, but do you really think he's too slow to guard NBA wings? I didn't get that feeling when I watch him. Do you have some specific games in which he really struggled on the perimeter?[/quote][/quote][/quote]
Yes. He had trouble staying in front of UNC's forwards in space. His lateral movement is more PF grade than SG/SF grade. Offensively, his game is stretch 4 like. He's a good shooter and has good post footwork. He isn't an NBA wing. He's an undersized stretch 4.

I've seen him compared to Robert Covington multiple times in this thread and I think it's a faulty comp. He isn't close to the kind of shooter Covington is, and he isn't nearly as quick. Covington doesn't have anywhere near the offensive footwork though. They're not similar players, IMO.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]


Well which NBA players with a 6'7 body and 7'0 wingspan have the lateral quickness of a SG? I agree that he has difficulties with consistent sliding and changing hip directions, but overall I don't think he's so bad that he'll become a target on the perimeter.

Regarding the UNC game, can you give some examples? I've noted three drives against Okeke, one where he bit on a pump fake form May and one each against Johnson (poor defense by Okeke) and Little (attempt at a steal), both were blocked by the help defense. Also, I didn't think that Coby White's eyes lit up when he was switched onto Okeke for example.

For what it is worth, Johnson, Maye and Little shot a combined 12 for 31 in that game.
LloydFree
RealGM
Posts: 15,767
And1: 11,567
Joined: Aug 20, 2012
Location: Somewhere near the Jersey Turnpike, between exit 4 and 15E

Re: 2018-2019 College Basketball / '19 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#1614 » by LloydFree » Tue May 21, 2019 2:09 pm

Kolkmania wrote:
LloydFree wrote:
Kolkmania wrote:


Well which NBA players with a 6'7 body and 7'0 wingspan have the lateral quickness of a SG? I agree that he has difficulties with consistent sliding and changing hip directions, but overall I don't think he's so bad that he'll become a target on the perimeter.

Regarding the UNC game, can you give some examples? I've noted three drives against Okeke, one where he bit on a pump fake form May and one each against Johnson (poor defense by Okeke) and Little (attempt at a steal), both were blocked by the help defense. Also, I didn't think that Coby White's eyes lit up when he was switched onto Okeke for example.

For what it is worth, Johnson, Maye and Little shot a combined 12 for 31 in that game.

Look. You asked what you were not seeing, and you said he "was an excellent defender" and compared him to Covington. I just told you what I think you're missing. He's not an excellent defender, and I don't think he will guard NBA wings.

I actually like Okeke and also think he should be picked in the 20's (if healthy). He's a smooth and coordinated athlete who can shoot. I think him being ranked behind Cameron Johnson and Matisse Thybulle in the mocks, is a mistake and him being ranked behind Grant Williams is borderline lunacy. I'd be fine with him at #24, depending on who was left, but there are a bunch of guys I like a little better, that I believe will still be on the board at #24.
Fischella wrote:I think none of you guys that are pro-Embiid no how basketball works today.. is way easier to win it all with Omer Asik than Olajuwon.
Actually if you ask me which Center I want for my perfect championship caliber team, I will chose Asik hands down
Kolkmania
Analyst
Posts: 3,387
And1: 1,664
Joined: Feb 11, 2015

Re: 2018-2019 College Basketball / '19 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#1615 » by Kolkmania » Tue May 21, 2019 2:28 pm

LloydFree wrote:
Kolkmania wrote:
LloydFree wrote:


Well which NBA players with a 6'7 body and 7'0 wingspan have the lateral quickness of a SG? I agree that he has difficulties with consistent sliding and changing hip directions, but overall I don't think he's so bad that he'll become a target on the perimeter.

Regarding the UNC game, can you give some examples? I've noted three drives against Okeke, one where he bit on a pump fake form May and one each against Johnson (poor defense by Okeke) and Little (attempt at a steal), both were blocked by the help defense. Also, I didn't think that Coby White's eyes lit up when he was switched onto Okeke for example.

For what it is worth, Johnson, Maye and Little shot a combined 12 for 31 in that game.

Look. You asked what am I not seeing, and you said he "was an excellent defender" and compared him to Covington. I just told you what I think you're missing. He's not an excellent defender, and I don't think he will guard NBA wings.

I like Okeke and also think he should be picked in the 20's (if healthy). He's a smooth and coordinated athlete who can shoot. I'd think him being ranked behind Cameron Johnson and Matisse Thybulle in the mocks is a mistake and him being ranked behind Grant Williams is borderline lunacy. I'd be fine with him at #24 depending on who was left, but there are a bunch of guys I like a little better, that I believe will still be on the board at #24.


I never questioned your observations or dismissed them. I requested a specific game which I may have overlooked or simply forgot so that we could have a discussion whether he's the defensive prospect that we could use.

I think it boils down to the fact you value man-to-man defense more than I do. Okeke does far more things than simply defending his assignment. Because of his hand coordination, anticipation, rebounding and rim protection I can understand why people bring up Covington tbh.
Negrodamus
RealGM
Posts: 23,186
And1: 13,661
Joined: Aug 05, 2004

Re: 2018-2019 College Basketball / '19 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#1616 » by Negrodamus » Tue May 21, 2019 6:52 pm

Read on Twitter


If nothing else, dude can jump.
Negrodamus
RealGM
Posts: 23,186
And1: 13,661
Joined: Aug 05, 2004

Re: 2018-2019 College Basketball / '19 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#1617 » by Negrodamus » Tue May 21, 2019 7:09 pm

Read on Twitter


He's extremely underrated as a passer. He should take that to the next level once in the NBA.
smittybanton
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,766
And1: 398
Joined: Jul 30, 2016

Re: 2018-2019 College Basketball / '19 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#1618 » by smittybanton » Tue May 21, 2019 8:12 pm

Negrodamus wrote:
Read on Twitter


He's extremely underrated as a passer. He should take that to the next level once in the NBA.


definitely need someone who can get into the guts of the defense and make plays. seattle pedigree is nice too.
ckchen
Veteran
Posts: 2,759
And1: 574
Joined: Aug 07, 2001

Re: 2018-2019 College Basketball / '19 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#1619 » by ckchen » Tue May 21, 2019 9:21 pm

Kobblehead wrote:I've been pumping up these guys for like two years, but why are Tres Tinkle and Terence Davis collectively ignored by the draft community?

Tinkle is one of the more complete prospects in the draft class.

Davis is a lockdown defender with point production.


Tinkle was one of the guys they brought in for Monday's workout. Seems to indicate they are at least looking at him with one of those 2nd round picks given the others in his workout group.
Negrodamus
RealGM
Posts: 23,186
And1: 13,661
Joined: Aug 05, 2004

Re: 2018-2019 College Basketball / '19 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#1620 » by Negrodamus » Tue May 21, 2019 9:36 pm

Read on Twitter


Here's a grouping I'd love to see the Sixers bring in.

Return to Philadelphia 76ers