Having a bench scorer would alleviate the majority of our problems

[Kobblehead]

Ya'll see Jordan Poole last night? That's the exact type of dude I've been clamoring for. Coby White can be that for us.

[mjkvol]

Ya'll see Jordan Poole last night? That's the exact type of dude I've been clamoring for. Coby White can be that for us.

And proof that real difference makers can be found outside the lottery if you know what you're doing and can identify players that fit what you do. He's about as seamless a fit on that team as they ever could have found.

[Kobblehead]

Funny thing about Poole is that he didn't have any good defensive, rebounding, or passing numbers (or even good scoring output). He was just young and super skilled.

Before that, Golden State had been trying to get defensive minded guys like Patrick McCaw, Jordan Bell and Jacob Evans and they were all flopping left and right. As soon as they re-prioritized skill in their selection, they hit on a guy.

[Ferry Avenue]

Ya'll see Jordan Poole last night? That's the exact type of dude I've been clamoring for. Coby White can be that for us.

Or if we just move Maxey to the bench and start Milton, the same effect will occur -- more bench scoring. The team will be no more likely to win however.

If the Warriors moved Draymond Green and his 7.5 PPG to the bench and replaced him with Poole's 18.5 PPG, they'd have the same scenario in reverse.

Right now the correlation between bench scoring (PPG) and win percentage team-by-team in the 2022 playoffs is a mere 0.09. Any team that is winning with bench scoring in the playoffs is doing it at the expense of starter scoring, and vice-versa.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/traditional/?StarterBench=Bench&sort=PTS&dir=-1&SeasonType=Playoffs

[ProcessDoctor]

Tyrese Maxey would be a great bench scorer behind Harden and Beal

[Negrodamus]

Drafting guys like Matisse Thybulle and Jaden Springer, while they provide value, leaves us in this situation. Instead, they should try for guys like: Miles McBride, Ayo Dosunmu, Jared Butler, Jordan Poole, Kevin Porter Jr (except he clearly is a head case), Jaylen Nowell.

If there's any question, always draft a natural scorer with the ability to dribble and distribute at a good to great level from a major college and you'll likely hit paydirt. Thybulle was obviously a lost cause on offense, but Springer gave marginal hope that he could help. He'll never be a legitimate on ball threat, but he could be a nice 3&D player. Meanwhile all those guys above still have it in them to be a 20+ppg scorer. Obviously most won't, but that chance is better than no chance at all.

Long story short, get your defensive role players from free agency/2nd rounders/UDFA.

[blargh]

Drafting guys like Matisse Thybulle and Jaden Springer, while they provide value, leaves us in this situation. Instead, they should try for guys like: Miles McBride, Ayo Dosunmu, Jared Butler, Jordan Poole, Kevin Porter Jr (except he clearly is a head case), Jaylen Nowell.

If there's any question, always draft a natural scorer with the ability to dribble and distribute at a good to great level from a major college and you'll likely hit paydirt. Thybulle was obviously a lost cause on offense, but Springer gave marginal hope that he could help. He'll never be a legitimate on ball threat, but he could be a nice 3&D player. Meanwhile all those guys above still have it in them to be a 20+ppg scorer. Obviously most won't, but that chance is better than no chance at all.

Long story short, get your defensive role players from free agency/2nd rounders/UDFA.

We did draft guys like you’re describing, in Maxey. But we can’t just draft 4-5 Maxey clones and wait to see which one pans out: there are only so many development minutes for short, on-ball shot creators. So you take a chance on some other player types that are also valuable if they pan out. Because it is also clearly possible to get short, bench shot creators in free agency, or we wouldn’t be having this conversation about Coby White and whatnot.

[Negrodamus]

Drafting guys like Matisse Thybulle and Jaden Springer, while they provide value, leaves us in this situation. Instead, they should try for guys like: Miles McBride, Ayo Dosunmu, Jared Butler, Jordan Poole, Kevin Porter Jr (except he clearly is a head case), Jaylen Nowell.

If there's any question, always draft a natural scorer with the ability to dribble and distribute at a good to great level from a major college and you'll likely hit paydirt. Thybulle was obviously a lost cause on offense, but Springer gave marginal hope that he could help. He'll never be a legitimate on ball threat, but he could be a nice 3&D player. Meanwhile all those guys above still have it in them to be a 20+ppg scorer. Obviously most won't, but that chance is better than no chance at all.

Long story short, get your defensive role players from free agency/2nd rounders/UDFA.

We did draft guys like you’re describing, in Maxey. But we can’t just draft 4-5 Maxey clones and wait to see which one pans out: there are only so many development minutes for short, on-ball shot creators. So you take a chance on some other player types that are also valuable if they pan out. Because it is also clearly possible to get short, bench shot creators in free agency, or we wouldn’t be having this conversation about Coby White and whatnot.

Disagree. Yes, we got Maxey, but there's a good chance most players at the 20+ spot in the draft won't pan out, so you might as well keep trying to get these kinds of players. They don't necessarily need to be short shot creators; Ayo, Poole, and Porter are all 6'5+. There are also players in this draft that fulfill larger shot creators: Wendell Moore, Jalen Williams, Harrison Ingram, Bryce McGowans.

I think there are some exceptions where an elite defensive role player stays with the team they were drafted on, like Marcus Smart, but for the most part they are acquired in free agency, a la PJ Tucker. Getting a Maxey type player needs to be drafted.

[Mik317]

a good bench lowers the margin of error your star has.

it makes it so the other team doesn't get a break and allows your star to rest/take possesions off knowing that the team can wade in the water without them.

The Celtics get great performances from Tatum for sure but it has been weird performances from Horford and Smart and Grant **** Williams that has lead to their wins (alongside Tatum of course). Jimmy gave us the business in the two games we won...no one else showed up tho. Luka is nuts but unless Bruson and Dinwiddie step it up and their shooters get hot...I doubt they win.

This does no absolve the star player...they need to be stars. But the key to building a true champion IMO is making that part of the job easier and super human team carrying becomes a nice thing to have and not the expectation and need in order to exist. Biid needs to be better and more consistant but again our best games this post season came when Maxey or Harden went off...imagine having other guys be able to do that too. Especially off the bench. Niang had his moment this season doing just that...need more of that but from more consistant and not 3pt barrage only methods.

[Ferry Avenue]

a good bench lowers the margin of error your star has.

So do good surrounding starting players.

There is no evidence that the support for a star player has to come from the bench as opposed to the other starting players, and in fact the evidence indicates that bench scoring is meaningless with regard to winning in the NBA, in either the regular season or the playoffs.

Here we are 90 posts in to a thread about how a bench scorer would make the difference for this team, and no one has yet to articulate definitive evidence regarding how bench scoring contributes to winning in the NBA.

It's about like being on an NFL message board and reading somebody say, "having a top punter would alleviate the majority of our team's problems," and then having the members of the forum respond as though that premise is valid, to the tune of 90 posts of thoughtful discussion as opposed to outright laughter and nothing else.

Keep trying though. Maybe if we get to 900 posts it'll happen at some point. Meanwhile just continue on as though the premise of the thread is valid.

[Mik317]

there is good bench scoring and the actual no scoring we got during the post season.

The Warriors have Poole (was bringing Steph off the bench lol). The Heat have Herro. The Mavs have Dinwiddie (Most of their shooters come off the bench too IIRC). The Celtics are a bit of the outlier but again Grant WIlliams, Pritchard and White have been solid for them.

Thats the final 4 teams. Some of those teams "bad' bench guys would be godsends here. I'm not saying build the greatest bench of all time either...just more than the often maybe 9 points total we got this playoffs would be nice. We have been hearing about the statistically greatest starting lineup in the league for the last 5 years, no? Harden/Maxey/Danny/Tobi/Biid is a damn good starting lineup. Yet when Biid or Harden sits...the team suddenly becomes the woat team in the world for some reason....and that has to do with the guys replacing them not being good enough to stay afloat,no? When Luka sits...the Mavs get worse for sure...but Dinwiddie and their shooters can stay afloat. When Steph sits, they can run the same **** with Poole. The Heat run offense through Herro when Jimmy is off the floor and its a different look. Biid sits, and we rely on Harden isos or Tobias post ups. Both of which aren't great but even harder because they rely so much on Biid's gravity. A better bench would allow the team to run a different look be it with shooters, creators, roll threats, idk...more than the slow, defensive targets we currently have.

Existing without Biid has been this franchise's kryptonite for years now. We blamed Ben. Jimmy couldn't carry Greg Monroe. Harden aint that guy either. BBall Paul did fine but then the shooters around him were food on the other end and just weren't respected enough for Harden's bull to work (I will say I think playing Maxey/Tobias with the bench lineup worked better to the eye test if nothing else...so it may say more about Harden than anything wakka wakka).

Its just that its also the last thing we haven't tried. Being the greatest starting lineup has been the status quo (stats wise)...it has not mattered if when Biid sits, it all goes to hell, requiring him to play more minutes and being tired as **** and doing too much...negating said starting lineup advantage,no?

Like I said the main goal is making his life easier so he has the juice to go hard when things aren't working out.

Thats just me...I don't know if that is possible at this stage tho

[Ferry Avenue]

there is good bench scoring and the actual no scoring we got during the post season.

The Warriors have Poole (was bringing Steph off the bench lol). The Heat have Herro. The Mavs have Dinwiddie (Most of their shooters come off the bench too IIRC). The Celtics are a bit of the outlier but again Grant WIlliams, Pritchard and White have been solid for them.

Thats the final 4 teams. Some of those teams "bad' bench guys would be godsends here. I'm not saying build the greatest bench of all time either...just more than the often maybe 9 points total we got this playoffs would be nice. We have been hearing about the statistically greatest starting lineup in the league for the last 5 years, no? Harden/Maxey/Danny/Tobi/Biid is a damn good starting lineup. Yet when Biid or Harden sits...the team suddenly becomes the woat team in the world for some reason....and that has to do with the guys replacing them not being good enough to stay afloat,no? When Luka sits...the Mavs get worse for sure...but Dinwiddie and their shooters can stay afloat. When Steph sits, they can run the same **** with Poole. The Heat run offense through Herro when Jimmy is off the floor and its a different look. Biid sits, and we rely on Harden isos or Tobias post ups. Both of which aren't great but even harder because they rely so much on Biid's gravity. A better bench would allow the team to run a different look be it with shooters, creators, roll threats, idk...more than the slow, defensive targets we currently have.

Existing without Biid has been this franchise's kryptonite for years now. We blamed Ben. Jimmy couldn't carry Greg Monroe. Harden aint that guy either. BBall Paul did fine but then the shooters around him were food on the other end and just weren't respected enough for Harden's bull to work (I will say I think playing Maxey/Tobias with the bench lineup worked better to the eye test if nothing else...so it may say more about Harden than anything wakka wakka).

Its just that its also the last thing we haven't tried. Being the greatest starting lineup has been the status quo (stats wise)...it has not mattered if when Biid sits, it all goes to hell, requiring him to play more minutes and being tired as **** and doing too much...negating said starting lineup advantage,no?

Like I said the main goal is making his life easier so he has the juice to go hard when things aren't working out.

Thats just me...I don't know if that is possible at this stage tho

Once again, the correlation between bench scoring and win percentage team-by-team in the 2022 NBA playoffs is 0.09. A mere 0.8% of the variance in win percentage in the playoffs is explained by bench scoring.

So, whatever winning in the playoffs you're attributing to bench scoring is a mirage. 99.2% of the variance in win percentage in the playoffs is explained by other areas of the game.