Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll

[tk76]

Simmons might develop a respectable jumper. If he does he will be a superstar.

But I don't see other bball handlers in the NBA who can be offensive stars solely through passing and getting into the paint. Maybe 25 years ago...

I don't think Simmons without a jumper is a guy you want to build around. I'm just counting on him learning to shoot, as many other states have done.

[youngcrev]

I'm not sure what I flip flop more on:

Taking Simmons or Ingram
or
Keeping Noel or Okafor

[Kobblehead]

Russell Westbrook and LeBron James are two of the top three players in the sport. Both are primary ball handlers and neither are shooters. If you're good at everything else, you don't need to be a deep threat. You can merely add a mid-range jumper.

Ben Simmons is good at everything else. All he needs to do is add a mid-range jumper.

[76ciology]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/theleadsports/status/732731224834375681[/tweet]

EXACTLY HOW I FEEL

[76ciology]

Simmons might develop a respectable jumper. If he does he will be a superstar.

But I don't see other bball handlers in the NBA who can be offensive stars solely through passing and getting into the paint. Maybe 25 years ago...

I don't think Simmons without a jumper is a guy you want to build around. I'm just counting on him learning to shoot, as many other states have done.

+1

I also acknowledge Simmons strengths. It's just tough to be a superstar wing if he can't have a jumper. He can break it down into spots like LBJ, where he will have a sweet spot somewhere on top as a triple threat position to drive and draw.

[CoreyGallagher]

Other bball handlers aren't athletic 6'10 guys, tho - being able to get into the paint isn't as beneficial for others as it would be for him imo.

I'm honestly fine with either because of the tweet above, it's whatever for me. I'd be excited and upset for different reasons if we draft either. Simmons - I won't get my hopeful twin towers, but I'll get a prospect with what I believe has superstar potential; Ingram - he fits better and I will get twin towers, the player that I believe has superstar potential goes to LA.

[Agnostifarian]

Russell Westbrook and LeBron James are two of the top three players in the sport. Both are primary ball handlers and neither are shooters. If you're good at everything else, you don't need to be a deep threat. You can merely add a mid-range jumper.

Ben Simmons is good at everything else. All he needs to do is add a mid-range jumper.

The kid played 30 NCAA games of zone defense. He doesn't protect the rim. I'm not sure we can say he is good at everything else. His defense is as theoretical as his jump shot. That's before you get to questions about his lapses in effort, pouting and blowing off his studies. Australians call him a "Yank." He's soft. He belongs in LA, not Philly.

[76ciology]

Russell Westbrook and LeBron James are two of the top three players in the sport. Both are primary ball handlers and neither are shooters. If you're good at everything else, you don't need to be a deep threat. You can merely add a mid-range jumper.

Ben Simmons is good at everything else. All he needs to do is add a mid-range jumper.

http://vorped.com/1-nba/2015-2016/player/1110/russell-westbrook/shotchart/

Westbrook.42% on mid range, he's a really good mid range shooter.

Like Westbrook, LBJ can shoot 35% at upper left corner as their triple threat position (sweet spot). Career 1.5makes at .340% per game at threes.

They are not good shooters but both guys are threats. And when you are a threat, you force defender to not sag off giving you an easier time to penetrate.

I know Simmons CAN improve. But I'm saying he is starting with a low base rate. Probably at the Okafor/Rondo level of shooting. And I could be wrong.

[CoreyGallagher]

Also, Simmons shot 29.4% (15-51) from 3 as a Senior in high school from what I can tell, he attempted 3 (33%, 1-3) in college. For a big guy - that's not too bad of a starting point imo. More encouraging, he shot just as well from the free throw line as he did in college, 68% (178-263).

(I wish I could have just rounded up to 30% )

[PhilasFinest]

Russell Westbrook and LeBron James are two of the top three players in the sport. Both are primary ball handlers and neither are shooters. If you're good at everything else, you don't need to be a deep threat. You can merely add a mid-range jumper.

Ben Simmons is good at everything else. All he needs to do is add a mid-range jumper.

http://vorped.com/1-nba/2015-2016/player/1110/russell-westbrook/shotchart/

Westbrook.42% on mid range, he's a really good mid range shooter.

Like Westbrook, LBJ can shoot 35% at upper left corner as their triple threat position (sweet spot). Career 1.5makes at .340% per game at threes.

They are not good shooters but both guys are threats. And when you are a threat, you force defender to not sag off giving you an easier time to penetrate.

Neither LeBron or Westbrook were very good shooters when they were entering the NBA

[Unbreakable99]

Simmons isn't great on defense but he should at least be passable and not a liability. He doesn't block shots but he does get steals and steals usually translates to the NBA. He averaged more steals than Ingram. Again you don't tank for 3 years and finally get the top pick only to pass on a transcendent talent like Simmons and draft Ingram. That's just asinine. People this debate is not that close. It's a two horse race but it's more like Secretariat pulling away from Sham and Sham just fades down the stretch.

[PhilasFinest]

Simmons' ability to drive and finish/draw fouls is also an extremely valuable trait.He was ELITE at doing so.
All the stud scorers in the NBA generally get to the line for easy points.

His ball handling is only going to get better. You HAVE to account for his ability to get to the basket, and he's a threat to make a pass to an open teammate at any time. When he gets to the line, he can make his free throws and this should also improve.

A slightly improved jump shot or even just confidence and more attempted jumpers will force teams to at least try to contest when he has the ball on the perimeter opening things up. Even if you take the drive away with an elite defender, he's still going to be able to impact the game with his size, rebounding and passing. If a teams best defender is on him, its reasonable to believe 1 of Okafor/Embiid is going to have a mismatch...or someone on our perimeter (hopefully someone more talented that we acquire) is going to have a better matchup.

I see the cases for both players, and wouldn't mind either guy. I just think Simmons' ceiling is superstar level. Im rolling the dice and banking on him to be able to evolve and improve his game.

[76ciology]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/pjeffersonlim/status/734068100379906048[/tweet]

[Mik317]

You are constantly doing comparisons to guys in their prime. I would hope Blake improved after being in the league for 7 or so years.

[76ciology]

Russell Westbrook and LeBron James are two of the top three players in the sport. Both are primary ball handlers and neither are shooters. If you're good at everything else, you don't need to be a deep threat. You can merely add a mid-range jumper.

Ben Simmons is good at everything else. All he needs to do is add a mid-range jumper.

http://vorped.com/1-nba/2015-2016/player/1110/russell-westbrook/shotchart/

Westbrook.42% on mid range, he's a really good mid range shooter.

Like Westbrook, LBJ can shoot 35% at upper left corner as their triple threat position (sweet spot). Career 1.5makes at .340% per game at threes.

They are not good shooters but both guys are threats. And when you are a threat, you force defender to not sag off giving you an easier time to penetrate.

Neither LeBron or Westbrook were very good shooters when they were entering the NBA

LeBron was shooting 35% on 3s when he was 20, I believe.

Nevertheless, point is.. You need to have a good jumper and it's non negotiable. How good is what's up for debate. Maybe a GOAT level athleticism of westbrook/LBJ wouldn't require that.

While Simmons is currently on Rondo/Okafor level with his shooting. And I hope that issue with shooting hand isn't real.

Offense has been like 90% shooting (just a guess). Even guys like CJ and Booker are abusing this reality. Gone are the days of fancy dunks, passing and dribbling. Shooting is a premium.

[Kobblehead]

Russell Westbrook and LeBron James are two of the top three players in the sport. Both are primary ball handlers and neither are shooters. If you're good at everything else, you don't need to be a deep threat. You can merely add a mid-range jumper.

Ben Simmons is good at everything else. All he needs to do is add a mid-range jumper.

The kid played 30 NCAA games of zone defense. He doesn't protect the rim. I'm not sure we can say he is good at everything else. His defense is as theoretical as his jump shot. That's before you get to questions about his lapses in effort, pouting and blowing off his studies. Australians call him a "Yank." He's soft. He belongs in LA, not Philly.

He's a wing, to me. Ben Simmons will never be the last line of defense on the basketball court, so whether or not he can protect the rim is inconsequential, IMO.

I don't think his defense is hypothetical, either. He posted a 5.6% Defensive Impact Play on a 5.3 DBPM. He's proven that he's a legitimate defender with major stopper potential.

[76ciology]

You are constantly doing comparisons to guys in their prime. I would hope Blake improved after being in the league for 7 or so years.

My point is more that superstar players needs to have good shooting. While Simmons has long ways to go before being a good shooter. I'm also trying my best to not be bias that Simmons can still improve his jumper. Altho we must admit he is shooting at Okafor level.

[Kobblehead]

LeBron James
Russell Westbrook
Grant Hill
Penny Hardaway
Michael Jordan
Dwyane Wade
Clyde Drexler

These guys somehow negotiated their way to becoming superstars without having been a shooter.

[Ericb5]

There is no set way to formulate what a superstar wing is.

LeBron is an all-encompassing player that can't shoot.
KD is a shooting scorer that doesn't distribute or defend at a high level.

Both are superstars.

With all due respect, do you think you can be a superstar primary ball handler wing nowadays without a jumper?

First off, Simmons will have a jumper. The question is how good will it be.

You don't have to be a "shooter" though to be a superstar.

These types of formulaic arguments that you make all the time are really missing the mark with Simmons. He transcends positional requirements.

You are trying to fit him into a category and then getting frustrated by the fact that he doesn't fit into the normal categories. Ingram checks the normal boxes for a category.

Simmons is a superstar that will bend the game to him. Opponents will be spending all of their effort trying to stop his impact on the game.

Is Simmons a guard, a forward or a big man? The answer is yes.

The fact that we will have Simmons PLUS a guy like Embiid is an embarrassment of riches. No young team in the league will be able to match a top 2 like them.

[76ciology]

LeBron James
Russell Westbrook
Grant Hill
Penny Hardaway
Michael Jordan
Dwyane Wade
Clyde Drexler

These guys somehow negotiated their way to becoming superstars without having been a shooter.

Respect to all those guys you mentioned. I was a penny fan before being a sixers fan.

But only one of them is an active player (he's a really good mid range shooter). And the game has changed. Current game favors the shooters and punishes the non shooters.