2025 NBA Draft (2)

[Black Mage]

Is it fair to say that Tre Johnson has the best shooting, self creation, ballhandling, and playmaking of Ace, VJ, and Tre?

No.

Best 3pt shooting - but Ace is better midrange, tough shots and at the rim (albeit neither made it there often). I don't know how you define "play making," but I might give that to VJ who was a more willing and better connective passer which is a form of creation.

[LeonJordanJr24]

Ace is better prospect than vj and tre. Hes star potential.

[Black Mage]

This just circles back to player comps driving me crazy. Mitchell was getting compared to Norm Powell coming out (and this is early role player version of Norm Powell not the one we got this season). Ridiculous outlier improvement is required of any of these guys to reach stardom. That isn't controlled by who you think they have a similar profile to.

From everything I've read/heard, VJ is the guy with outlier work ethic among these guys. He's made large strides over the last couple years. He's an elite athlete and big time competitor. I think he's a reasonably good bet to end up the best player among these guys.

Work ethic based on what? He’s a year older than Ace with a worse offensive game.

Why hasn’t he developed any offensive skills yet if he’s such a hard worker?

Work ethic based on... Everything reported about the kid? Or maybe the dramatic improvement as a guy that wasn't talked about until his junior year? Certainly on a far greater improvement track than Ace over that same time period.

Also... Does he have a worse offensive game right now? Worse scoring package, sure. Seems like he's got a better feel for where to be and how to play currently.

Gonna disagree on the "where to be and how to play." You won't see it in box scores; but Ace has an exceptional feel for moving within the defense and finding those "gaps" and "soft spots." His off-ball game is 100% elite, Rutgers was just dumber than a box of rocks and didn't even try to run sh** to capitalize.

[76ciology]

https://theswishtheory.com/2025-nba-draft-articles/2025/06/contextualizing-production-vj-edgecombe-and-miles-byrd/

The article basically argues that VJ Edgecombe was misused at Baylor. They ran a slow-paced, PnR-heavy offense that didn’t suit his strengths, especially with two bigs often on the floor, which clogged the paint. That kind of setup exposed his weaknesses, he’s not a polished ballhandler, can’t create efficiently in tight spaces, and struggles finishing in the halfcourt (just 49% at the rim and 44% on layups in non-transition).

That said, it’s not a death sentence. His rim struggles aren’t new, his AAU data flagged this too, but his athleticism and feel are still elite. He’s explosive off two feet, and his transition scoring is legit. It’s just that Baylor’s system didn’t give him many chances to attack downhill against a tilted defense.

What’s encouraging is his shooting profile. He came into college shooting 39% from three and around 80% from the line. The pull-up jumper isn’t there yet (24% on off-the-dribble threes), but his spot-up potential is strong. That gives him real value as an off-ball weapon.

The author positions VJ as a “utility guard” (think Josh Hart or Gary Payton II) but with a better jumper. He rebounds like a big, defends like a wing, and has the athletic tools to fill a role that flexes between perimeter and frontcourt responsibilities. You can use him as a spacer, a screener, or someone who attacks mismatches. In that context, his weaknesses are manageable.

He’s not going to be a lead initiator or high-volume creator, and trying to make him that (as Baylor did) actually lowers his value. But in a secondary or tertiary role, with NBA spacing and simplified reads, he could thrive. He’s the type of guy who helps you build flexible lineups without sacrificing spacing, defense, or physicality.

So they dont see him to be a lead guard or primary creator. But he’s also not just a glue guy. And there’s real upside here if you use him the right way.

[Arsenal]

https://theswishtheory.com/2025-nba-draft-articles/2025/06/contextualizing-production-vj-edgecombe-and-miles-byrd/

The article basically argues that VJ Edgecombe was misused at Baylor. They ran a slow-paced, PnR-heavy offense that didn’t suit his strengths, especially with two bigs often on the floor, which clogged the paint. That kind of setup exposed his weaknesses, he’s not a polished ballhandler, can’t create efficiently in tight spaces, and struggles finishing in the halfcourt (just 49% at the rim and 44% on layups in non-transition).

That said, it’s not a death sentence. His rim struggles aren’t new, his AAU data flagged this too, but his athleticism and feel are still elite. He’s explosive off two feet, and his transition scoring is legit. It’s just that Baylor’s system didn’t give him many chances to attack downhill against a tilted defense.

What’s encouraging is his shooting profile. He came into college shooting 39% from three and around 80% from the line. The pull-up jumper isn’t there yet (24% on off-the-dribble threes), but his spot-up potential is strong. That gives him real value as an off-ball weapon.

The author positions VJ as a “utility guard” (think Josh Hart or Gary Payton II) but with a better jumper. He rebounds like a big, defends like a wing, and has the athletic tools to fill a role that flexes between perimeter and frontcourt responsibilities. You can use him as a spacer, a screener, or someone who attacks mismatches. In that context, his weaknesses are manageable.

He’s not going to be a lead initiator or high-volume creator, and trying to make him that (as Baylor did) actually lowers his value. But in a secondary or tertiary role, with NBA spacing and simplified reads, he could thrive. He’s the type of guy who helps you build flexible lineups without sacrificing spacing, defense, or physicality.

So they dont see him to be a lead guard or primary creator. But he’s also not just a glue guy. And there’s real upside here if you use him the right way.

Like I said, a role player. Absolutely not with the #3 pick.

[ivysixer2000]

I know some here don't like the comps, but I actually do to know what their upside will be without looking at hours of tape. I used to look at tape like that, but after the trade for Zhaire, I just stopped. Just tell me who we got, and then I will look at it cause it could break your heart otherwise.

We have done alot of dumb things but that was my last draw. How we didn't take SGA is beyond comprehension at the time, but at least Bridges would have been a nice consolation prize. I will never take time to review them and get an opinion again as it does not matter my opinion to the Sixers lol.

I do trust Morey, unlike the other past GMs, I figure whoever he picks will at least be good. My preference would not be another short guard, but all the top prospects except Ace are just that. Gotta take the hand your dealt I guess.

[76ciology]

I see VJ and Ace as having a similar level of shot creation. Both generated a comparable number of self-created shots in the halfcourt. Ace leans more on the midrange for his creation, while VJ mixes in both threes and midrange looks.

In terms of style of shotcreation, I profile Ace more like a Marcus Morris or TJ Warren style shotcreator, not saying he’ll be that good, but the style fits.. a few dribbles, a turnaround, or a simple pull-up from midrange. While VJ is more like Derrick White, very few PnRs and isolation, mostly shooting over defenders, catch and shoot and attacking close-outs.

Neither guy really has the handle or touch to consistently get all the way to the rim and finish.

They both project as potential 3&D players to 2nd or 3rd option, but VJ seems to have the edge in feel and basketball IQ. Ace has the physical advantage with his length (VJ is no slouch either he almost have same standing reach with Dwyane Wade), but I put more weight on feel and decision-making, and VJ grades out better in that area and you can see the big gap, where VJ has a big lead over Ace with their first year college numbers.

[ivysixer2000]

I can only see VJ, Ace, or Tre. I know alot of you are in love with Harper if he drops, but he can't shoot.

Not really into guards that can't shoot.

[76ciology]

Like I said, a role player. Absolutely not with the #3 pick.

If that’s the case, then don’t overthink it, just base it on who is closest to 60 TS% and the most unassisted buckets in the halfcourt. That narrows it down to just two real options, Dylan Harper or Kasparas Jakucionis.

And if you’re ignoring TS% and leaning more toward upside plus unassisted buckets in halfcourt, then Tre Johnson or Jeremiah Fears is your guy.

[76ciology]

I can only see VJ, Ace, or Tre. I know alot of you are in love with Harper if he drops, but he can't shoot.

Not really into guards that can't shoot.

I wouldn’t call it final or black-and-white, to say “he can’t shoot”.

But he’s not a good shooter, and there are definitely real questions with his shot. It’s not as bad as Fultz’s was at Washington, but it’s in that same ballpark.

*Harper shot 31% on midrange and 30% on 3s in halfcourt

[Black Mage]

Just some food for thought as it involves Tre. Think he's getting a bit overrated on offense and getting a few passes for some really concerning on court issues.

https://www.phillyvoice.com/sixers-news-analysis-2025-nba-mock-draft-rumors-tre-johnson-statsdrake-powell-dylan-harper-ace-bailey-cooper-flagg-highlights/

Aronson takes Tre at 3 for the Sixers quoting the "scout Jama" stating Tre had the most impressive jump shooting seasons in stat recorded history since 2010. Aronson goes on to highlight Tre's just under 40% from 3 on "massive" shot diet per 100 and "tough shots."

McCain just last year took the same amount of 3's and same shot diet as Tre and shot 2-3% better from 3 and his midrange jump shot was about 8% better than Tre's. So that scout's argument about greatest jump shooting season is a lot of hyperbole. BTW, man are we lucky to have gotten Jared.

Example 2: RTRS

[url]

Watch on YouTube

;t=4447s[/url] listen to the 1:14:00 marker.

Their guest goes on to talk about how he taped Tre during the SEC conference tournament to check his body language and said the following:

"Claps for ball a lot" - - "he'd slump" if the ball swung to the other side - - "threw his arms up" when he didn't get ball causing assistant coach to "plead with him" - - The conclusion was "clearly Texas was messed up" and Tre's 1 mature interview fixed that enormous red flag.

I'm dumbfounded that Mike, but especially, Spike let 1 good interview wash away this concern. This is exactly the same as how Joel Embiid acts on the Court which drives Spike insane. Joel doesn't get the ball how/when he wants, he sulks and pouts and then gives less effort on defense. Gee, does that sound familiar? That's exactly what we saw out of Tre, sulks and pouts and then didn't try on defense. And he wasn't listening to coaching about it either. I wouldn't trust 1 interview where his agent clearly had him prepared to handle specific questions. I don't know why this hasn't been raised as a bigger red flag given what we've gone through with Joel.

[youngcrev]

I know some here don't like the comps, but I actually do to know what their upside will be without looking at hours of tape. I used to look at tape like that, but after the trade for Zhaire, I just stopped. Just tell me who we got, and then I will look at it cause it could break your heart otherwise.

We have done alot of dumb things but that was my last draw. How we didn't take SGA is beyond comprehension at the time, but at least Bridges would have been a nice consolation prize. I will never take time to review them and get an opinion again as it does not matter my opinion to the Sixers lol.

I do trust Morey, unlike the other past GMs, I figure whoever he picks will at least be good. My preference would not be another short guard, but all the top prospects except Ace are just that. Gotta take the hand your dealt I guess.

I like player comps, I just think people get bogged down too much by them rather than just taking them for what they are. It's more like "his game resembles this guy" rather than "he's this guy."

It falls apart for me when people basically reduce it to Player X reminds of Andrei Kirilenko and Player Y reminds of Tyrese Haliburton, therefore Player Y > Player X because Haliburton > Kirilenko.

[Black Mage]

I can only see VJ, Ace, or Tre. I know alot of you are in love with Harper if he drops, but he can't shoot.

Not really into guards that can't shoot.

I wouldn’t call it final or black-and-white, to say “he can’t shoot”.

But he’s not a good shooter, and there are definitely real questions with his shot. It’s not as bad as Fultz’s was at Washington, but it’s in that same ballpark.

*Harper shot 31% on midrange and 30% on 3s in halfcourt

Just like with Ace, if you took off Rutgers' version of Ben Simmons; Harper's midrange % rose into the 40's which would be acceptable. Even if he's a weaker shooter, he fits seamlessly next to Maxey and McCain. Harper has that ability to penetrate and start the defensive rotation game or he'll be able to find and hit McCain and Maxey off-ball for open 3's. It's really good fit with either of our existing young guards, including Grimes.

[76ciology]

Just some food for thought as it involves Tre. Think he's getting a bit overrated on offense and getting a few passes for some really concerning on court issues.

https://www.phillyvoice.com/sixers-news-analysis-2025-nba-mock-draft-rumors-tre-johnson-statsdrake-powell-dylan-harper-ace-bailey-cooper-flagg-highlights/

Aronson takes Tre at 3 for the Sixers quoting the "scout Jama" stating Tre had the most impressive jump shooting seasons in stat recorded history since 2010. Aronson goes on to highlight Tre's just under 40% from 3 on "massive" shot diet per 100 and "tough shots."

McCain just last year took the same amount of 3's and same shot diet as Tre and shot 2-3% better from 3 and his midrange jump shot was about 8% better than Tre's. So that scout's argument about greatest jump shooting season is a lot of hyperbole. BTW, man are we lucky to have gotten Jared.

Example 2: RTRS

[url]

Watch on YouTube

;t=4447s[/url] listen to the 1:14:00 marker.

Their guest goes on to talk about how he taped Tre during the SEC conference tournament to check his body language and said the following:

"Claps for ball a lot" - - "he'd slump" if the ball swung to the other side - - "threw his arms up" when he didn't get ball causing assistant coach to "plead with him" - - The conclusion was "clearly Texas was messed up" and Tre's 1 mature interview fixed that enormous red flag.

I'm dumbfounded that Mike, but especially, Spike let 1 good interview wash away this concern. This is exactly the same as how Joel Embiid acts on the Court which drives Spike insane. Joel doesn't get the ball how/when he wants, he sulks and pouts and then gives less effort on defense. Gee, does that sound familiar? That's exactly what we saw out of Tre, sulks and pouts and then didn't try on defense. And he wasn't listening to coaching about it either. I wouldn't trust 1 interview where his agent clearly had him prepared to handle specific questions. I don't know why this hasn't been raised as a bigger red flag given what we've gone through with Joel.

I also see a lot of those emotions on the court.. and I’ve mentioned them before. But if you actually watch Texas games, you’ll see the offense is mostly primarily run for guys who frankly are no bodies. Tre usually only gets the ball when the first option breaks down. That’s not going to be the case in the NBA, where he’ll be playing off an All-Star like Maxey, a former All-NBA in Paul George, and an MVP in Embiid.

It’s hard to blame Tre, to be honest. The guys getting the primary touches at Texas weren’t Dylan Harper-level talents, they were random guards and bigs with limited creation ability. I’d imagine Maxey or even someone like Jared McCain would be frustrated in that setup too.

Personally, I think they should’ve leaned into using Tre more as a lead guard/secondary scorer in the mold of D’Angelo Russell. And there’s some proof he can thrive in that role, he averaged about 1.00 points per possession as a PnR ballhandler. So there’s upside there if he’s used correctly.

Bottom line, we dont know how his emotions will be like by not being first option on offense, but there are valid reasons to be frustrated.

[Black Mage]

I see VJ and Ace as having a similar level of shot creation. Both generated a comparable number of self-created shots in the halfcourt. Ace leans more on the midrange for his creation, while VJ mixes in both threes and midrange looks.

In terms of style of shotcreation, I profile Ace more like a Marcus Morris or TJ Warren style shotcreator, not saying he’ll be that good, but the style fits.. a few dribbles, a turnaround, or a simple pull-up from midrange. While VJ is more like Derrick White, very few PnRs and isolation, mostly shooting over defenders, catch and shoot and attacking close-outs.

Neither guy really has the handle or touch to consistently get all the way to the rim and finish.

They both project as potential 3&D players to 2nd or 3rd option, but VJ seems to have the edge in feel and basketball IQ. Ace has the physical advantage with his length (VJ is no slouch either he almost have same standing reach with Dwyane Wade), but I put more weight on feel and decision-making, and VJ grades out better in that area and you can see the big gap, where VJ has a big lead over Ace with their first year college numbers.

Really nice post. I do think you need to give a little more value to the fact that Ace can C&S on movement which VJ can't. I recall in the early days of Joel's career how we kept looking for guys with gravity that could bend the defense just by moving around the court without even needing to be a "hub" on offense. Ace, Tre, Kon all have that kind of gravity and ability to bend a defense.

Not talked about much by Kyle or Derek or other Sixers evaluators is that you can put pressure on a rim without the ball in your hands. The Heat and other elite teams put pressure on the rim by having elite rim cutters that strains a defense and can start a defensive rotation as well. Ace is probably the best off-ball cutter of the prospects in the Top 5-6 and #2 isn't even close.

This is where I see Ace having a leg up on VJ or Tre b/c he can cause pressure at all 3 levels off-ball. He is a deadly C&S from 3 even when guarded. He finds gaps in the midrange and nails those shots and he is an elite cutter that with competent teammates should find lobs at the ready.

[Black Mage]

Spoiler:

Just some food for thought as it involves Tre. Think he's getting a bit overrated on offense and getting a few passes for some really concerning on court issues.

https://www.phillyvoice.com/sixers-news-analysis-2025-nba-mock-draft-rumors-tre-johnson-statsdrake-powell-dylan-harper-ace-bailey-cooper-flagg-highlights/

Aronson takes Tre at 3 for the Sixers quoting the "scout Jama" stating Tre had the most impressive jump shooting seasons in stat recorded history since 2010. Aronson goes on to highlight Tre's just under 40% from 3 on "massive" shot diet per 100 and "tough shots."

McCain just last year took the same amount of 3's and same shot diet as Tre and shot 2-3% better from 3 and his midrange jump shot was about 8% better than Tre's. So that scout's argument about greatest jump shooting season is a lot of hyperbole. BTW, man are we lucky to have gotten Jared.

Example 2: RTRS

[url]

Watch on YouTube

;t=4447s[/url] listen to the 1:14:00 marker.

Their guest goes on to talk about how he taped Tre during the SEC conference tournament to check his body language and said the following:

"Claps for ball a lot" - - "he'd slump" if the ball swung to the other side - - "threw his arms up" when he didn't get ball causing assistant coach to "plead with him" - - The conclusion was "clearly Texas was messed up" and Tre's 1 mature interview fixed that enormous red flag.

I'm dumbfounded that Mike, but especially, Spike let 1 good interview wash away this concern. This is exactly the same as how Joel Embiid acts on the Court which drives Spike insane. Joel doesn't get the ball how/when he wants, he sulks and pouts and then gives less effort on defense. Gee, does that sound familiar? That's exactly what we saw out of Tre, sulks and pouts and then didn't try on defense. And he wasn't listening to coaching about it either. I wouldn't trust 1 interview where his agent clearly had him prepared to handle specific questions. I don't know why this hasn't been raised as a bigger red flag given what we've gone through with Joel.

I also see a lot of those emotions on the court.. and I’ve mentioned them before. But if you actually watch Texas games, you’ll see the offense is mostly primarily run for guys who frankly are no bodies. Tre usually only gets the ball when the first option breaks down. That’s not going to be the case in the NBA, where he’ll be playing off an All-Star like Maxey, a former All-NBA in Paul George, and an MVP in Embiid.

It’s hard to blame Tre, to be honest. The guys getting the primary touches at Texas weren’t Dylan Harper-level talents, they were random guards and bigs with limited creation ability. I’d imagine Maxey or even someone like Jared McCain would be frustrated in that setup too.

Personally, I think they should’ve leaned into using Tre more as a lead guard/secondary scorer in the mold of D’Angelo Russell. And there’s some proof he can thrive in that role, he averaged about 1.00 points per possession as a PnR ballhandler. So there’s upside there if he’s used correctly.

Bottom line, we dont know how his emotions will be like by not being first option on offense, but there are valid reasons to be frustrated.

How much more usage does Tre need or want? He was already at 29% at Texas which is huge. Even Kevin Durant was only 33% usage. He isn't going to get close to that usage on the Sixers. I have a hard time gambling with a guy who checks out if things don't go his way on offense. Joel's kinda burnt me out on that.

[76ciology]

Spoiler:

How much more usage does Tre need or want? He was already at 29% at Texas which is huge. Even Kevin Durant was only 33% usage. He isn't going to get close to that usage on the Sixers. I have a hard time gambling with a guy who checks out if things don't go his way on offense. Joel's kinda burnt me out on that.

It’s less about usage and more about hierarchy. He gets the ball, but usually after the offense has already burned through a big chunk of the shot clock, and we all know shot quality drops the deeper you go into the clock. That’s also a big reason why he ends up taking so many midrange shots. Not the only reason, but a major one. There’s no time left to get all the way to the rim, and the defense is already set.

To me, the high usage doesn’t necessarily mean he’s the hub of the offense, it just highlights how bad his teammates are. If those primary actions were being run by someone like Cooper Flagg or Jeremiah Fears instead of some random guard and big, Tre probably wouldn’t even be touching the ball that much. He’d just be camped in the corner and he’d be compare to Ray Allen.

..during his time with the Miami Heat

[76ciology]

If Jared McCain were in this year’s draft as a freshman, where do you think he’d go? I’d say around 13th. Guys who I’ll take ahead of him.

1. Cooper Flagg
2. Dylan Harper
3. Jakucionis
4. Tre Johnson
5. Kon Knueppel
6. Edgecombe
7. Ace Bailey
8. Jeremiah Fears
9. Khaman Maluach
10. CMB
11. Carter Bryant
12. Noa Essengue

[ivysixer2000]

If Jared McCain were in this year’s draft as a freshman, where do you think he’d go? I’d say around 13th. Guys who I’ll take ahead of him.

1. Cooper Flagg
2. Dylan Harper
3. Jakucionis
4. Tre Johnson
5. Kon Knueppel
6. Edgecombe
7. Ace Bailey
8. Jeremiah Fears
9. Khaman Maluach
10. CMB
11. Carter Bryant
12. Noa Essengue

I do have to say you are overrating these guys coming out cause they are prospects. Jared has proven what he can do early as a rookie against NBA talent. Everyone was hurt, after a while, he was the focal point for the opposition's D cause everyone else on our team was hurt. I don't think he will come back 100% really, pretty bad injury, but its hard to compare him to them.

Noone on that list has done anything against NBA talent, yet.

[eyeatoma]

If Jared McCain were in this year’s draft as a freshman, where do you think he’d go? I’d say around 13th. Guys who I’ll take ahead of him.

1. Cooper Flagg
2. Dylan Harper
3. Jakucionis
4. Tre Johnson
5. Kon Knueppel
6. Edgecombe
7. Ace Bailey
8. Jeremiah Fears
9. Khaman Maluach
10. CMB
11. Carter Bryant
12. Noa Essengue

I do have to say you are overrating these guys coming out cause they are prospects. Jared has proven what he can do early as a rookie against NBA talent. Everyone was hurt, after a while, he was the focal point for the opposition's D cause everyone else on our team was hurt. I don't think he will come back 100% really, pretty bad injury, but its hard to compare him to them.

Noone on that list has done anything against NBA talent, yet.

Meniscus tears are the most common injury in the NBA and amongst many athletes, it's the easiest to come back from. More worrisome longer term if they had to trim it, but from the lenght of time he was out, it was repaired, I believe we confirmed it later on as well. He should basically be 100% next year.

We're just scarred because our 7'2 Behemoth has had multiple, and it's basically non-existant now.