Simmons Trade Thread - The Ocho

[the_process]

People say Harris is a bad fit here like it's a given and I don't get that at all. His literal skills are a great fit with Embiid and while he was playing Simmons. If anything it's the exact opposite, his issue is just that he's not an elite talent which is how he is being paid. If he was making $25 million or whatever no one would be complaining about him.

Couldn't be further from the truth.

He cannot operate the P&R, so there's no mutualism in their games. There isn't anything Tobias Harris is doing out there that makes life easier for Joel Embiid.

He pounds the air out of the basketball, isn't a willing shooter from 3, can't facilitate and wants to play bullyball ala: inside the hashes forcing Embiid away from the rim.

And to compound his dysfunctional offensive skillset, he doesn't even be playing any defense. He's a sieve that gets cooked by any above average forward and had an illness riddled Embiid chasing (and clamping) Siakam around the perimeter because he had a swift 30 bomb dropped on his head in game one of the Raptors series.

Theoretically Tobias Harris is this monster 6'8 stretch forward with guard skills. But in actuality he's a role-player on an inflated contract that gets his in slow paced mid 2000's fashion.

This team doesn't skip a beat when he's out with injury and replaced by near vet min Georges Niang.

The hatred of Harris on this board has reached comical levels. Were you making these proclamations last year? The main issue with Harris right now is twofold his 3PT shot isn't there and he is trying to do too much with Simmons gone.

He is a guy who is sort of capable of doing a bit of everything on offense. He is capable of handling the ball. He is a capable passer. His 3PT shot is streaky but over his career it's been pretty good. The issue sort of becomes when you look at what he does well and sort of expand his role too large. Last year everything was free and easy he was basically putting up similar playmaking numbers despite Simmons being there.

But now the efficiency is gone and that is because the focus has mainly been on him as the 2nd guy. Which he isn't. His 3PT shot also hasn't been there which also doesn't help but the idea that you can just take him away and throw Niang I don't buy. All that does it make an existing problem that much worse which is we don't have a guard we can run our offense through. We just don't. It's like in baseball moving someone from middle relief into a closer role him struggling then saying well we don't need a closer and the previous guy who excelled in middle relief isn't useful. Well he may not be useful in his new role but if you move him back to old one he could still be.

I don't honestly really see a situation where we can move Harris and improve the team and I don't see a way where we bring in the guards where our bigs whether that be Embiid or Harris are not going to have to force things on offense. Maybe if we somehow get Lillard we can reopen that discussion

I can't believe The Bookworm still has defenders here. You aren't moving Harris for an improvement, the players you get will almost certainly be worse. You trade for a better fit. One who will spam 3' balls and keep the lane more open for Jo and Maxey.

[Kobblehead]

I think the disconnect is that many people think Harris is incapable of being useful. I think that's incorrect and that he just chooses not to be useful. That's what keeps his defenders hooked. There are pockets where he shows dribble-pass-shoot play that would make him an excellent fit. He just doesn't do it with any consistency. So yeah, ultimately, he's gotta go. I don't think Morey would swap him for a guy who fits better like Kevin Love, though.

[Zumramania]

Spikeslovechild is right about one thing, that is that the focus is on Harris as the second guy in the pecking order, which is a bad coaching decision by Rivers and also Harris tries to be too much. This is also why we play better without him, because the offense is more equally distributed and geared toward finding the open guy, whereas when he plays our offensive flow gets clogged. And defensively he is not good, which is getting exposed now. So yeah, I'm sure that if he would play our other players 1 on 1 he would probably beat them, but in this team he simply does not fit (and there are not be so many teams where he would fit). Also last season Simmons was here, Maxey was still in his first season etc. so you could argue that if you would add Simmons to this team, we'd be rocking in the regular season, with or without Harris. Heck, even in this situation, if Embiid didn't get covid we'd probably have one of the best records in the east. The eye test shows this season that we are simply playing better without Harris. Cavs are also better without Sexton, who is a better player than Harris. This is not a weird thing, fit matters.

[Bum Adebayo]

The fit Harris still better than the bum shooting tries at least and the dunk possible.

[spikeslovechild]

Couldn't be further from the truth.

He cannot operate the P&R, so there's no mutualism in their games. There isn't anything Tobias Harris is doing out there that makes life easier for Joel Embiid.

He pounds the air out of the basketball, isn't a willing shooter from 3, can't facilitate and wants to play bullyball ala: inside the hashes forcing Embiid away from the rim.

And to compound his dysfunctional offensive skillset, he doesn't even be playing any defense. He's a sieve that gets cooked by any above average forward and had an illness riddled Embiid chasing (and clamping) Siakam around the perimeter because he had a swift 30 bomb dropped on his head in game one of the Raptors series.

Theoretically Tobias Harris is this monster 6'8 stretch forward with guard skills. But in actuality he's a role-player on an inflated contract that gets his in slow paced mid 2000's fashion.

This team doesn't skip a beat when he's out with injury and replaced by near vet min Georges Niang.

The hatred of Harris on this board has reached comical levels. Were you making these proclamations last year? The main issue with Harris right now is twofold his 3PT shot isn't there and he is trying to do too much with Simmons gone.

He is a guy who is sort of capable of doing a bit of everything on offense. He is capable of handling the ball. He is a capable passer. His 3PT shot is streaky but over his career it's been pretty good. The issue sort of becomes when you look at what he does well and sort of expand his role too large. Last year everything was free and easy he was basically putting up similar playmaking numbers despite Simmons being there.

But now the efficiency is gone and that is because the focus has mainly been on him as the 2nd guy. Which he isn't. His 3PT shot also hasn't been there which also doesn't help but the idea that you can just take him away and throw Niang I don't buy. All that does it make an existing problem that much worse which is we don't have a guard we can run our offense through. We just don't. It's like in baseball moving someone from middle relief into a closer role him struggling then saying well we don't need a closer and the previous guy who excelled in middle relief isn't useful. Well he may not be useful in his new role but if you move him back to old one he could still be.

I don't honestly really see a situation where we can move Harris and improve the team and I don't see a way where we bring in the guards where our bigs whether that be Embiid or Harris are not going to have to force things on offense. Maybe if we somehow get Lillard we can reopen that discussion

I can't believe The Bookworm still has defenders here. You aren't moving Harris for an improvement, the players you get will almost certainly be worse. You trade for a better fit. One who will spam 3' balls and keep the lane more open for Jo and Maxey.

Except the offense is already being run through Embiid so what you want to do so even more? I don't. Much of what has gotten us into trouble is these big long possessions of Embiid which often result in turnovers rather then having someone break down the defense and passing to Embiid once he gets into his spots. There is also a ton of wasted energy of Embiid that goes into that.

I am not arguing that Harris is a great fit as sort of that guy either but he is better than nothing or a guy standing at the perimeter spamming 3's and making them at a league average clip. What we truly need is a guard who can breakdown a defense. We have always needed that. We tried to get Harden it didn't work. We are trying for Lillard hopefully somehow that changes.

That will solve a host of issues but until that happens what you suggesting is sort of crazy to me. Maxey needs a secondary ballhandler to help him as a PG. Hell ideally he would be our secondary ballhandler. This team is 22nd in the league in assists

[Sixerscan]

The hatred of Harris on this board has reached comical levels. Were you making these proclamations last year? The main issue with Harris right now is twofold his 3PT shot isn't there and he is trying to do too much with Simmons gone.

He is a guy who is sort of capable of doing a bit of everything on offense. He is capable of handling the ball. He is a capable passer. His 3PT shot is streaky but over his career it's been pretty good. The issue sort of becomes when you look at what he does well and sort of expand his role too large. Last year everything was free and easy he was basically putting up similar playmaking numbers despite Simmons being there.

But now the efficiency is gone and that is because the focus has mainly been on him as the 2nd guy. Which he isn't. His 3PT shot also hasn't been there which also doesn't help but the idea that you can just take him away and throw Niang I don't buy. All that does it make an existing problem that much worse which is we don't have a guard we can run our offense through. We just don't. It's like in baseball moving someone from middle relief into a closer role him struggling then saying well we don't need a closer and the previous guy who excelled in middle relief isn't useful. Well he may not be useful in his new role but if you move him back to old one he could still be.

I don't honestly really see a situation where we can move Harris and improve the team and I don't see a way where we bring in the guards where our bigs whether that be Embiid or Harris are not going to have to force things on offense. Maybe if we somehow get Lillard we can reopen that discussion

I can't believe The Bookworm still has defenders here. You aren't moving Harris for an improvement, the players you get will almost certainly be worse. You trade for a better fit. One who will spam 3' balls and keep the lane more open for Jo and Maxey.

Except the offense is already being run through Embiid so what you want to do so even more? I don't. Much of what has gotten us into trouble is these big long possessions of Embiid which often result in turnovers rather then having someone break down the defense and passing to Embiid once he gets into his spots. There is also a ton of wasted energy of Embiid that goes into that.

I am not arguing that Harris is a great fit as sort of that guy either but he is better than nothing or a guy standing at the perimeter spamming 3's and making them at a league average clip. What we truly need is a guard who can breakdown a defense. We have always needed that. We tried to get Harden it didn't work. We are trying for Lillard hopefully somehow that changes.

That will solve a host of issues but until that happens what you suggesting is sort of crazy to me. Maxey needs a secondary ballhandler to help him as a PG. Hell ideally he would be our secondary ballhandler. This team is 22nd in the league in assists

Yeah I think when people are saying he's a bad fit they are assuming that the team is going to bring in an elite guard to handle a lot of the non-Embiid shot creation. If and when that happens, I agree that Tobias probably isn't the best use of resources. But that doesn't make him a bad fit with Embiid, it makes him a bad fit with Embiid and this guard that isn't here yet.

In the meantime, with the starting lineup of Simmons, Curry, Green, Embiid last year, and now Maxey this year, Tobias does a lot of what you need at the 4 (a guy that can both shoot and handle the ball in addition to the decent defense and rebounding). And that was shown last year when they had the best record in the conference (again, not sure how people think they pulled that off with Embiid missing 1/3 of the season unless Simmons and Harris were very good? Anyway.)

It'd be better to have, like, Kevin Durant of course. But that's not because of fit issues (Durant has a lower 3 point rate and lives even more in midrange) it's because of the talent/skill upgrade. Likewise, I'm not sure why people are flipping out about Tobias' fit but also would want Ingram, those two have fairly similar offensive games. Actually, I think Tobias' success with Embiid is a reason that I would actually be pretty excited about bringing Ingram in (provided you would eventually move Tobias and get better guards, of course).

And with the Turner thing... yeah I'm just gonna disagree that would be a good idea. We've seen how that goes already. Good strategy if you want Embiid to get pissed off again and demand a trade I guess.

[the_process]

What we do not want, at any time and with any lineup, is Tobias with the ball in his hands. Ever.

[phillynative]

The fit Harris still better than the bum shooting tries at least and the dunk possible.

[Negrodamus]

I'm still on the Fox trade bandwagon, but I'd love it if we could reshuffle the chairs on our roster by adding Harrison Barnes.

Fox and Barnes for Ben, Kork, Green (Dec 15).

Fox, Curry, Barnes, Tobi, Embiid starting
Maxey, Shake, Tisse, Niang, Drummond bench

Presumably that pushes Tobi back into more of a C&S role and we can eventually move Barnes into his slot if we trade Harris.

I think the Kings might want Tisse over Kork for youth reasons, which I'd be fine with, but then we've completely gutted our team of defensive specialists.

I also think the Kings actually value Barnes quite a bit because he's an absolute force on offense this year. He's like the perfect PF to play with Embiid.

[Bum Adebayo]

Fox the breakout is happening

[phillynative]

I'm still on the Fox trade bandwagon, but I'd love it if we could reshuffle the chairs on our roster by adding Harrison Barnes.

Fox and Barnes for Ben, Kork, Green (Dec 15).

Fox, Curry, Barnes, Tobi, Embiid starting
Maxey, Shake, Tisse, Niang, Drummond bench

Presumably that pushes Tobi back into more of a C&S role and we can eventually move Barnes into his slot if we trade Harris.

I think the Kings might want Tisse over Kork for youth reasons, which I'd be fine with, but then we've completely gutted our team of defensive specialists.

I also think the Kings actually value Barnes quite a bit because he's an absolute force on offense this year. He's like the perfect PF to play with Embiid.

Tisse and Furk are both 24.

[Negrodamus]

I'm still on the Fox trade bandwagon, but I'd love it if we could reshuffle the chairs on our roster by adding Harrison Barnes.

Fox and Barnes for Ben, Kork, Green (Dec 15).

Fox, Curry, Barnes, Tobi, Embiid starting
Maxey, Shake, Tisse, Niang, Drummond bench

Presumably that pushes Tobi back into more of a C&S role and we can eventually move Barnes into his slot if we trade Harris.

I think the Kings might want Tisse over Kork for youth reasons, which I'd be fine with, but then we've completely gutted our team of defensive specialists.

I also think the Kings actually value Barnes quite a bit because he's an absolute force on offense this year. He's like the perfect PF to play with Embiid.

Tisse and Furk are both 24.

That was silly of me; you're right. I guess Kork joining the league at a young age while Tisse joined super old threw me.

I guess the only reason Tisse has more perceived value (in my mind, at least) is because he has the reputation of top defensive talent in the league.

[Bum Adebayo]

Matisse is the only Aussie value reason the leaving fans riddance is good

[the_process]

Tobias, Ben, and Matisse to SAC
Thompson and 2022 PHI 1st to OKC
Barnes, Fox, Bagley, and 2025 PHI 1st (via OKC) to PHI

[Roy The Natural]

Simmons and Curry plus picks for Powell and Lillard makes a ton of sense for both clubs

Nah... I'd rather cut Powell out and move him somewhere else for likely better return if I'm Portland. There's no way you avoid Thybulle, Maxey, Simmons, and picks for Powell+Lillard.

I have Powell worth more than a 1st. Maybe two 1sts or a decent prospect and a 1st. Lillard is worth a minimum of Simmons+two 1sts.

Curry holds little value to the Blazers in a blow up scenario and would need to be routed to a 3rd team who could provide something that did provide value. I think the value's off here.

I don't have Powell worth anywhere close to a first. He is basically having a similar year to last season and he at that point was moved for a restricted FA in Trent Jr. Curry to me on his contract is more valuable. Curry is probably worth at least a first and I am not joking his contract is one of the best bargains in the NBA.

It's much easier for the Trailblazers to move Curry down the line rather than Powell just because of the money. The reason why I suggested Powell is because I thought the swap would actually add value for the Blazers. I could be wrong but that is how I see things

We just have a massively different valuation of players then. I think Powell is a SIGNIFIGANTLY better player than Curry. Powell provides a similar level of shooting to Curry while being a good defender and MUCH better at getting to the rim and finishing there. Powell plays very similar to young Eric Gordon before the injuries, and with better shooting. His primary issue at this point is being played out of position.

But you're free to have your own valuation. The reason Powell was traded for a RFA is because he was an UFA. I wouldn't trade Powell straight up for Curry if I was a team looking to win... no way.

[phillynative]

I'm still on the Fox trade bandwagon, but I'd love it if we could reshuffle the chairs on our roster by adding Harrison Barnes.

Fox and Barnes for Ben, Kork, Green (Dec 15).

Fox, Curry, Barnes, Tobi, Embiid starting
Maxey, Shake, Tisse, Niang, Drummond bench

Presumably that pushes Tobi back into more of a C&S role and we can eventually move Barnes into his slot if we trade Harris.

I think the Kings might want Tisse over Kork for youth reasons, which I'd be fine with, but then we've completely gutted our team of defensive specialists.

I also think the Kings actually value Barnes quite a bit because he's an absolute force on offense this year. He's like the perfect PF to play with Embiid.

Tisse and Furk are both 24.

That was silly of me; you're right. I guess Kork joining the league at a young age while Tisse joined super old threw me.

I guess the only reason Tisse has more perceived value (in my mind, at least) is because he has the reputation of top defensive talent in the league.

Yea it's his defensive abilities that give him any value. Furk is way too inconsistent to have any value and that's too bad. I guess you get what you pay for in his case.

[spikeslovechild]

Nah... I'd rather cut Powell out and move him somewhere else for likely better return if I'm Portland. There's no way you avoid Thybulle, Maxey, Simmons, and picks for Powell+Lillard.

I have Powell worth more than a 1st. Maybe two 1sts or a decent prospect and a 1st. Lillard is worth a minimum of Simmons+two 1sts.

Curry holds little value to the Blazers in a blow up scenario and would need to be routed to a 3rd team who could provide something that did provide value. I think the value's off here.

I don't have Powell worth anywhere close to a first. He is basically having a similar year to last season and he at that point was moved for a restricted FA in Trent Jr. Curry to me on his contract is more valuable. Curry is probably worth at least a first and I am not joking his contract is one of the best bargains in the NBA.

It's much easier for the Trailblazers to move Curry down the line rather than Powell just because of the money. The reason why I suggested Powell is because I thought the swap would actually add value for the Blazers. I could be wrong but that is how I see things

We just have a massively different valuation of players then. I think Powell is a SIGNIFIGANTLY better player than Curry. Powell provides a similar level of shooting to Curry while being a good defender and MUCH better at getting to the rim and finishing there. Powell plays very similar to young Eric Gordon before the injuries, and with better shooting. His primary issue at this point is being played out of position.

But you're free to have your own valuation. The reason Powell was traded for a RFA is because he was an UFA. I wouldn't trade Powell straight up for Curry if I was a team looking to win... no way.

Their salaries aren't comparable Powell makes an AAV of 18M on his new deal. Curry makes 16.7M (8.4 AAV) total over the next two years. Basically any contender can trade for Curry without subtracting a major piece from their roster which would be important to the Blazers if they are planning on tearing things down by moving Dame (paying Powell 18M AAV on a sliding scale contract would make little sense).

Furthermore I don't really buy that Powell sort of became more valuable after signing his deal unless you believe he took a discount in doing so as a UFA which I don't plus everyone knew he wanted 80M that was his ask from the raptors anyone could have traded for him and signed him to that deal. Also Powell defense is sort uneven depending on where he plays. He can usually guard the two but at the 3 he gets abused by bigger wings on the regular even with his wingspan. The Blazers as an example had a 118 DTRG with him on the court last year and a 116 DTRG overall. This year they have 116 DTRG on the court with him and 113.2 overall.

But I honestly don't want to spend a whole lot more time on this we just see things differently.

[Bum Adebayo]

In the end what we desperately need is a guy that can create his shot, I'm tired of ballhogs, defenders with zero offense, 3&D or no D, you name it, is it that much to ask to have a guy that can score on the ball for once?

[SixthStreet]

Tin foil hat theory: Morey isn't even trying to trade Simmons. Maybe he thinks that Simmons sitting out the entire year and forfeiting all the money isn't a plausible outcome and that after the trade deadline Simmons will show up and play as there's no movement until the offseason. That raises championship equity this year (probably moreso than any realistic trade out there before the deadline) and then in the offseason he's used in a S&T for ideally Harden, but there could be other irons in the fire.

[ExplosionsInDaSky]

People say Harris is a bad fit here like it's a given and I don't get that at all. His literal skills are a great fit with Embiid and while he was playing Simmons. If anything it's the exact opposite, his issue is just that he's not an elite talent which is how he is being paid. If he was making $25 million or whatever no one would be complaining about him.

I agree with this as well. I don't know why Tobias catches the flack he does on here. He is what he is, but he's far from the problem right now. He's not the answer either, but he's not a detriment to this team nor is a player I want to see traded. I like him for what he does.

How do posters not see the glaringly obvious here. Harris has and always been the biggest problem since day dot. The contract kills any slim chance of winning. Not a second option and not near enough on dynamics to be a third.

We just saw once he came back went back to being a ball stopper once again. Dude is kind of a selfish player when you watch him close enough. He’s like the Doc Rivers of scoring lol. Everything has to go right or it becomes shakey. I’ve never seen anyone score 28 and have literally no bearing on the outcome of a game.

Dude would go top 3 in the league if you want a tank commander. Durable, scores 20 on 15+ shots doesn’t get to the line with no real winning impact. Perfect

I'm not one to throw a bunch of stats at someone to support an argument/ideology, but I will say this. I don't think it's Harris's fault that he is paid as much as he is. I think the fact that he gets paid like a superstar is why everyone seems to be so hard on him. Thing is Ben is on a max contract as well and there are people out there still defending him for his abysmal performance in the playoffs last year. Harris was brought here to be a scorer and he's done exactly that. He was brought here to play power forward next to Embiid and he was extended in the hope that he would continue to evolve and develop his game. Things don't always go as planned, but I still don't see the complaint with Harris. He's been extremely durable, he's been a consistent scorer for us which is what we've asked him to be, he's been a total team player the whole time he's been here, he's humble, he's got good character, he's not once been a distraction to this team. I simply don't see what the problem is here. This year he's being asked to be the second option for us and I disagree with that as a fan of this team. I think that role should go to Maxey despite him being so young.

Tobias Harris isn't a player that can take over a game when it matters the most. He isn't a closer, and he's never been a clutch player late in the game. Those are legitimate complaints about him that I have. He also gets his shot blocked a lot and he's ghosted at times when we've really needed him. All of that is true about Tobias Harris. I do agree that when things break down he falls apart, but again...If you're looking at Tobias Harris in terms of what he is and not how he's paid, then you really can't complain about it. He's a third option on a contending team. A supporting player so to speak, one that can score, one that can get his early in the game where a tone can be set or where we can jump out to a big lead. Tobias has and never will be a superstar player in this league and people need to stop expecting that from him.

Some of what you said I agree with and some really makes no sense at all....If he scores 28 in a game that we have a chance at winning then he's had a positive impact on that game for us. If he scores 20 points on fifteen shots that's pretty decent efficiency if you ask me. I mean, if he doesn't get to the line and scores 20 points on 15 shots, then that's a 9/10-15 clip he's doing it at. Sorry, but what exactly is wrong with that type of percentage? It's above 50% for Christ sake!

There are those that suggest that we are in fact a better team without him. I think in a regular season game that is pretty much meaningless at times where players are just going through the motions of playing the game, comments like that can ring some truth to them. However, in a playoff setting, when the games matter the most, I feel like we have a much better chance of winning with him then we would without him. In my opinion an NBA roster is only as good as it is in a playoff setting. During a long regular season, people seem to forget what it actually takes to win in the postseason. You need scoring, you need to hit open shots, and you need a lead guard that can win one v one situations, operate in the PnR, and score off the dribble. Tobias Harris can score and hit open shots. The problem isn't Tobias Harris, the problem is that we don't have a lead guard that can do all the things I just listed. If we had that type of guard on this roster, there would be no complaints about Harris at all. Again, it's not about what Tobias does or doesn't do for us. We paid him, we chose to keep him. No! It's about what we as a team don't have and right now, it's a lead guard that can take the pressure off of both Embiid and Harris. We know what Tobias IS, we know what he isn't. We also know what we need and what we don't have on this roster.