Joel Embiid -- The Process is now Live

[phiphan]

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[bedjawII]

The problem with the Jefferson/Okafor comparison is that Jefferson was a plus defender for the past 7 consecutive years.

So true! You are spot on. This is so obvious. It took AJ six years to develop into a plus defender. So we just need to be patient with Jah's development.

That's is where you were going with that statement...right?

[TTP]

The problem with the Jefferson/Okafor comparison is that Jefferson was a plus defender for the past 7 consecutive years.

So true! You are spot on. This is so obvious. It took AJ six years to develop into a plus defender. So we just need to be patient with Jah's development.

That's is where you were going with that statement...right?

Jefferson is not a plus defender. Most bigs grade positively on defensive metrics so instead you need to look at how they fare relative to other bigs that play the same position. For example, 48 of 59 qualified Centers had a positive DRPM last season. However, I wouldn't consider someone that is below average for their position a plus defender.

Jefferson was 27th of 59 in DRPM in 2015-2016, 36th of 53 in 2014-2015, and 31st out of 46 in 2013-2014.

His rim protection numbers on NylonCalculus were among the bottom of the league last season. His positionally adjusted points saved per 36 in 2015-2016 was second worst in the league behind Bargnani.

I don't think Okafor is ever going to be a plus defender. It would be surprising if he were even league average defensively for any position he plays.

[sixerswillrule]

The problem with the Jefferson/Okafor comparison is that Jefferson was a plus defender for the past 7 consecutive years.

So true! You are spot on. This is so obvious. It took AJ six years to develop into a plus defender. So we just need to be patient with Jah's development.

That's is where you were going with that statement...right?

Jefferson is not a plus defender. Most bigs grade positively on defensive metrics so instead you need to look at how they fare relative to other bigs that play the same position. For example, 48 of 59 qualified Centers had a positive DRPM last season. However, I wouldn't consider someone that is below average for their position a plus defender.

Jefferson was 27th of 59 in DRPM in 2015-2016, 36th of 53 in 2014-2015, and 31st out of 46 in 2013-2014.

His rim protection numbers on NylonCalculus were among the bottom of the league last season. His positionally adjusted points saved per 36 in 2015-2016 was second worst in the league behind Bargnani.

I don't think Okafor is ever going to be a plus defender. It would be surprising if he were even league average defensively for any position he plays.

So Walker, MKG, and Tolliver were the only players in all of Charlotte's rotation in 2014 to finish with a clearly above average DRPM, yet Charlotte as a team had the 5th best DRtg in the entire league? Makes sense

[LloydFree]

So true! You are spot on. This is so obvious. It took AJ six years to develop into a plus defender. So we just need to be patient with Jah's development.

That's is where you were going with that statement...right?

Jefferson is not a plus defender. Most bigs grade positively on defensive metrics so instead you need to look at how they fare relative to other bigs that play the same position. For example, 48 of 59 qualified Centers had a positive DRPM last season. However, I wouldn't consider someone that is below average for their position a plus defender.

Jefferson was 27th of 59 in DRPM in 2015-2016, 36th of 53 in 2014-2015, and 31st out of 46 in 2013-2014.

His rim protection numbers on NylonCalculus were among the bottom of the league last season. His positionally adjusted points saved per 36 in 2015-2016 was second worst in the league behind Bargnani.

I don't think Okafor is ever going to be a plus defender. It would be surprising if he were even league average defensively for any position he plays.

So Walker, MKG, and Tolliver were the only players in all of Charlotte's rotation in 2014 to finish with a clearly above average DRPM, yet Charlotte as a team had the 5th best DRtg in the entire league? Makes sense

I don't know what the emoticon is about. What's so hard to comprehend about a player being less than average defensively compared to others at his position?

[sixerswillrule]

Jefferson is not a plus defender. Most bigs grade positively on defensive metrics so instead you need to look at how they fare relative to other bigs that play the same position. For example, 48 of 59 qualified Centers had a positive DRPM last season. However, I wouldn't consider someone that is below average for their position a plus defender.

Jefferson was 27th of 59 in DRPM in 2015-2016, 36th of 53 in 2014-2015, and 31st out of 46 in 2013-2014.

His rim protection numbers on NylonCalculus were among the bottom of the league last season. His positionally adjusted points saved per 36 in 2015-2016 was second worst in the league behind Bargnani.

I don't think Okafor is ever going to be a plus defender. It would be surprising if he were even league average defensively for any position he plays.

So Walker, MKG, and Tolliver were the only players in all of Charlotte's rotation in 2014 to finish with a clearly above average DRPM, yet Charlotte as a team had the 5th best DRtg in the entire league? Makes sense

I don't know what the emoticon is about. What's so hard to comprehend about a player being less than average defensively compared to others at his position?

Really? It's pretty clear that the is about the illogical sentence that comes right before it.

[TTP]

So true! You are spot on. This is so obvious. It took AJ six years to develop into a plus defender. So we just need to be patient with Jah's development.

That's is where you were going with that statement...right?

Jefferson is not a plus defender. Most bigs grade positively on defensive metrics so instead you need to look at how they fare relative to other bigs that play the same position. For example, 48 of 59 qualified Centers had a positive DRPM last season. However, I wouldn't consider someone that is below average for their position a plus defender.

Jefferson was 27th of 59 in DRPM in 2015-2016, 36th of 53 in 2014-2015, and 31st out of 46 in 2013-2014.

His rim protection numbers on NylonCalculus were among the bottom of the league last season. His positionally adjusted points saved per 36 in 2015-2016 was second worst in the league behind Bargnani.

I don't think Okafor is ever going to be a plus defender. It would be surprising if he were even league average defensively for any position he plays.

So Walker, MKG, and Tolliver were the only players in all of Charlotte's rotation in 2014 to finish with a clearly above average DRPM, yet Charlotte as a team had the 5th best DRtg in the entire league? Makes sense

I'm not sure what your argument is. Are you arguing that Al Jefferson is a plus defender?

Basketballreference lists Charlotte as 6th in DRTG in 2013-2014 at 104.61 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_ratings.html). They were closer to the 21st ranked team (108.79) than the 1st (100.05). It looks like the only real negative defenders they had were Al Jefferson and a little over half a season of Ramon Sessions. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

[sixerswillrule]

Jefferson is not a plus defender. Most bigs grade positively on defensive metrics so instead you need to look at how they fare relative to other bigs that play the same position. For example, 48 of 59 qualified Centers had a positive DRPM last season. However, I wouldn't consider someone that is below average for their position a plus defender.

Jefferson was 27th of 59 in DRPM in 2015-2016, 36th of 53 in 2014-2015, and 31st out of 46 in 2013-2014.

His rim protection numbers on NylonCalculus were among the bottom of the league last season. His positionally adjusted points saved per 36 in 2015-2016 was second worst in the league behind Bargnani.

I don't think Okafor is ever going to be a plus defender. It would be surprising if he were even league average defensively for any position he plays.

So Walker, MKG, and Tolliver were the only players in all of Charlotte's rotation in 2014 to finish with a clearly above average DRPM, yet Charlotte as a team had the 5th best DRtg in the entire league? Makes sense

I'm not sure what your argument is. Are you arguing that Al Jefferson is a plus defender?

Basketballreference lists Charlotte as 6th in DRTG in 2013-2014 at 104.61 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_ratings.html). They were closer to the 21st ranked team (108.79) than the 1st (100.05). It looks like the only real negative defenders they had were Al Jefferson and a little over half a season of Ramon Sessions. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

Biyombo was also a negative defender according to DRPM. So that's 3 below average defenders, 3 average defenders, and 3 above average defenders (two of which only played 20 and 24 mpg, respectively). My argument was that something seemed off with DRPM if a team full of mostly average and below average defenders could finish with an above average defense.

My next argument would be that if nothing is off with DRPM, and a team full of mostly average and below average defenders, including a below average defensive center, can finish with an above average defense, isn't that an argument against "starting someone like Jefferson or Okafor at center is a killer for your defense, you just can't do it"? Of course I don't plan on Okafor starting at center for this team with Embiid here. But whether we trade him or he's our 6th man, that's an argument in his favor.

[LloydFree]

So Walker, MKG, and Tolliver were the only players in all of Charlotte's rotation in 2014 to finish with a clearly above average DRPM, yet Charlotte as a team had the 5th best DRtg in the entire league? Makes sense

I don't know what the emoticon is about. What's so hard to comprehend about a player being less than average defensively compared to others at his position?

Really? It's pretty clear that the is about the illogical sentence that comes right before it.

Lol. OK, by your logic Jefferson is a better than average defensive Center, because he was part of a team that was good defensively. Makes me think of the scene in the Holy Grail, where they're trying to use Aristotelian logic to determine if the Witch floats.

[sixerswillrule]

I don't know what the emoticon is about. What's so hard to comprehend about a player being less than average defensively compared to others at his position?

Really? It's pretty clear that the is about the illogical sentence that comes right before it.

Lol. OK, by your logic Jefferson is a better than average defensive Center, because he was part of a team that was good defensively. Makes me think of the scene in the Holy Grail, where they're trying to use Aristotelian logic to determine if the Witch floats.

I never said that Jefferson is a better than average defensive center. Don't put words in my mouth.

[Ericb5]

So Walker, MKG, and Tolliver were the only players in all of Charlotte's rotation in 2014 to finish with a clearly above average DRPM, yet Charlotte as a team had the 5th best DRtg in the entire league? Makes sense

I'm not sure what your argument is. Are you arguing that Al Jefferson is a plus defender?

Basketballreference lists Charlotte as 6th in DRTG in 2013-2014 at 104.61 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_ratings.html). They were closer to the 21st ranked team (108.79) than the 1st (100.05). It looks like the only real negative defenders they had were Al Jefferson and a little over half a season of Ramon Sessions. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

Biyombo was also a negative defender according to DRPM. So that's 3 below average defenders, 3 average defenders, and 3 above average defenders (two of which only played 20 and 24 mpg, respectively). My argument was that something seemed off with DRPM if a team full of mostly average and below average defenders could finish with an above average defense.

My next argument would be that if nothing is off with DRPM, and a team full of mostly average and below average defenders, including a below average defensive center, can finish with an above average defense, isn't that an argument against "starting someone like Jefferson or Okafor at center is a killer for your defense, you just can't do it"? Of course I don't plan on Okafor starting at center for this team with Embiid here. But whether we trade him or he's our 6th man, that's an argument in his favor.

You are pointing out a flaw in these statistics. It is really hard to come up with a team based stat for individual defensive impact. That is why all of these advanced metrics have to be taken in context. They aren't meaningless, but they also don't tell the full story.

The whole argument of whether or not a center can be below average for the position, but a plus defender in general shows the flaws.

If you trust the stat to say that it will tell you if someone is a plus defender or not then it should be trusted. People then contort the logic to fit their conclusion when they would say that someone is a plus defender, but below average at the same time. It's silliness.

Right now Embiid has a negative OBPM, yet anyone with two eyes can see that he is a dominant offensive force. So what is the conclusion? That he makes the team worse on offense?

I personally put a lot more stock in advanced metrics that only measure individual performance, and the ones that attempt to measure affects on a team can be misleading.


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[TTP]

So Walker, MKG, and Tolliver were the only players in all of Charlotte's rotation in 2014 to finish with a clearly above average DRPM, yet Charlotte as a team had the 5th best DRtg in the entire league? Makes sense

I'm not sure what your argument is. Are you arguing that Al Jefferson is a plus defender?

Basketballreference lists Charlotte as 6th in DRTG in 2013-2014 at 104.61 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_ratings.html). They were closer to the 21st ranked team (108.79) than the 1st (100.05). It looks like the only real negative defenders they had were Al Jefferson and a little over half a season of Ramon Sessions. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

Biyombo was also a negative defender according to DRPM. So that's 3 below average defenders, 3 average defenders, and 3 above average defenders (two of which only played 20 and 24 mpg, respectively). My argument was that something seemed off with DRPM if a team full of mostly average and below average defenders could finish with an above average defense.

My next argument would be that if nothing is off with DRPM, and a team full of mostly average and below average defenders, including a below average defensive center, can finish with an above average defense, isn't that an argument against "starting someone like Jefferson or Okafor at center is a killer for your defense, you just can't do it"? Of course I don't plan on Okafor starting at center for this team with Embiid here. But whether we trade him or he's our 6th man, that's an argument in his favor.

I mean if you think it's flawed and care enough about it, do some kind of weighted average relative to the amount of minutes they played and factoring in their deviation from average DRPM. Biyombo and Sessions together played a full season of minutes so it's a bit disingenuous to use your 3,3,3 claim and also note that two of the above average defenders averaged only 20 and 24 mpg. At least provide evidence on both sides of the argument.

I think the numbers look pretty reasonable relative to where the team finished.

I don't think you can start Okafor on a team that has championship aspirations. I'm not even really interested in him on the bench but am willing to give him a chance to give us more information there this season. Look at Enes Kanter though - an elite team like the Warriors will just abuse him and make it so you can't even play him. He averaged 12 mpg in the finals and significantly less after the Thunder realized they couldn't play him. He played 3 minutes vs the Warriors the other night. If you can't play a guy like that against the best teams in the league and your goal is to win a championship, it likely won't make sense to roster him.

[TTP]

I'm not sure what your argument is. Are you arguing that Al Jefferson is a plus defender?

Basketballreference lists Charlotte as 6th in DRTG in 2013-2014 at 104.61 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_ratings.html). They were closer to the 21st ranked team (108.79) than the 1st (100.05). It looks like the only real negative defenders they had were Al Jefferson and a little over half a season of Ramon Sessions. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

Biyombo was also a negative defender according to DRPM. So that's 3 below average defenders, 3 average defenders, and 3 above average defenders (two of which only played 20 and 24 mpg, respectively). My argument was that something seemed off with DRPM if a team full of mostly average and below average defenders could finish with an above average defense.

My next argument would be that if nothing is off with DRPM, and a team full of mostly average and below average defenders, including a below average defensive center, can finish with an above average defense, isn't that an argument against "starting someone like Jefferson or Okafor at center is a killer for your defense, you just can't do it"? Of course I don't plan on Okafor starting at center for this team with Embiid here. But whether we trade him or he's our 6th man, that's an argument in his favor.

You are pointing out a flaw in these statistics. It is really hard to come up with a team based stat for individual defensive impact. That is why all of these advanced metrics have to be taken in context. They aren't meaningless, but they also don't tell the full story.

The whole argument of whether or not a center can be below average for the position, but a plus defender in general shows the flaws.

If you trust the stat to say that it will tell you if someone is a plus defender or not then it should be trusted. People then contort the logic to fit their conclusion when they would say that someone is a plus defender, but below average at the same time. It's silliness.

Right now Embiid has a negative OBPM, yet anyone with two eyes can see that he is a dominant offensive force. So what is the conclusion? That he makes the team worse on offense?

I personally put a lot more stock in advanced metrics that only measure individual performance, and the ones that attempt to measure affects on a team can be misleading.


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RPM is going to be better than BPM. BPM is box score based and doesn't measure team contributions as well as RPM does. I'm also fairly sure it also doesn't adjust for quality of opponents and teammates like RPM does.

Using multiple stats in conjunction with each other paints a better picture, which is why I also referenced rim protection statistics.

[Kobblehead]

Why has a conversation about Big Icing, perpetual bench scoring specialist, taken over this Embiid thread?

[LloydFree]

Why has a conversation about Big Icing, perpetual bench scoring specialist, taken over this Embiid thread?

Because every thread leads to somebody's ridiculous advocacy of Okafor's defensive potential. Now, we should have hope that in six (6) years he can be as good as the below average defensive Center, Al Jefferson. SMH.

[CoreyGallagher]

Why has a conversation about Big Icing, perpetual bench scoring specialist, taken over this Embiid thread?

Because every thread leads to somebody's ridiculous advocacy of Okafor's defensive potential. Now, we should have hope that in six (6) years he can be as good as the below average defensive Center, Al Jefferson. SMH.

...

And there are still guys on this board trying to say the Lakers gave the the 76ers a gift by selecting Russell over Okafor. SMH.

[Ericb5]

Cant wait to see Embiid and Gobert battle tomorrow. We might get a chance to see how tall Embiid really is since we have a firm measurement of Gobert at 7 foot and a half an inch.

He is listed at 7'2 which is what Embiid supposedly is, although he is frustratingly still listed at 7'0, and none of our media members seem willing to ask the team what the true numbers are.

We should get some clarity tomorrow.






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[LloydFree]

Embiid's teammates know that he is automatic from 3 when he is wide open. At 1:45: All four players started running back before the shot went through the net.

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[CoreyGallagher]

He now ranks 2nd in the NBA in blocks per game with 3.0 while playing 22 minutes per game. Davis leads with 3.2 bpg while playing 38 mpg.

[CoreyGallagher]

ROY

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