Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll

[76ciology]

The "don't overthink this" crowd is funny to me. Simmons will have to do a complete overhaul of his shot, gain confidence in shots at the rim with his left hand, and increase motivation on defense all while we will have to restructure the entire team to make Ben Simmons work, all while there are rumblings that he wants to force his way to LA. All the while we are doing this because he has elite handles, flashy passes, and good at Randle-esque "bullyball" in the SEC.

If anything, overthinking is a necessity.

Not just that. But you kind of saw all the possible red flags against his last game against Texas A&M. Where they have scouted them well, forcing him to take jumpers and let him finish with the left.

NBA defense are smart that they can play zone or pack the paint like how Thibs do it, you need to be able to operate in 3 zones. The 3pt arc, mid range and paint. You go where there's least pressure.

[Kobblehead]

Tell that to SI author then.

They compared Simmons/Ingram to Okafor/Towns based on trajectory.

Which makes no sense.

Based on his freshman year, Ingram is on a trajectory with Harrison Barnes, KCP, Allen Crabbe, Victor Oladipo and Jabari Parker.

Again, the media is trying to manufacture a debate by propping Ingram up as a worthy adversary for Ben Simmons as the #1 pick. He's not. He's nowhere close to being one.

Based on this analogy that the writer is trying to make, Ben Simmons is John Wall. Came in as the likely #1 pick, put all his tools on display during his freshman season and solidified himself as being worthy of the #1 pick.

[Jack Bauer]

right bc nobody has ever improved their jumper once getting to the nba right?

Lol so literal.

Right

[76ciology]

BPM in college:

KAT -- 17.3
Simmons -- 11.6
Okafor -- 10.9
Ingram -- 7.5

The game is different in the NBA.

For instance, Jah has a big negative ORPM despite being better than KP on offense in terms of skillset, TS% and FG%.

In the NBA, most teams have 7' wingspan 8'10" reach wings who can negate your size advantage. If you can't shoot, they will let you take jumper and not send any help defense.

[Kobblehead]

Towns was a force of nature during his freshman season at Kentucky. Ingram underwhelmed.

Huh? Towns had his minutes and role restricted at UK. If anything, he was drafted with this kept in mind. People knew he was a shooter and had a much more diverse game than he showed at UK because of what he showed in HS.

Towns averaged 10/6.7/1.1 and 2.2 blocks and minimal distance shooting at UK. His per 40 minutes were good, but not otherworldly.

Ingram averaged 17.3/6.8/2 and 1.4 blocks. Not sure you are making the best argument here. No doubt KAT was a more elite prospect than Ingram (or Simmons), but that was not because he dominated at UK.

Wrong. He was a plug superstar and anyone that has any experience evaluating draft prospects knew it.

- 18.5% rebounder
- 11.5% shotbocker
- 80%+ free throw shooter
- lowpost, highpost game
- passing instincts
- BPM splits of 6.5, 10.8 and 17.3 (godlike line)

[ExplosionsInDaSky]

My biggest concern with Simmons is that he doesn't want to be here. There seems to be this belief that he really wants to be in LA. How accurate is that? Like i've said before, i'm torn between Simmons and Ingram, but it's more because I fear Simmons doesn't want to play here. He's definitely the most talented player in this draft.

Where did you read that? Those reports are false. Simmons' camp has no issues with playing in Philly. But anyone would choose LA over Philly if they had a choice to live. BC said on the radio today he has spoken to Simmons' camp and there are no issues should he come to Philly.

Oh...You know...Just a few different places..But I certainly hope it's all BS....I just simply said that was my biggest concern. I didn't mean for it to sound like it was a profound one. I have very little worries about Ben Simmons as a basketball player in the NBA. I just want us to hold onto him once he does establish stardom lol.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiirde81fDMAhVDeSYKHYt9AXYQFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.silverscreenandroll.com%2F2016%2F2%2F5%2F10921474%2Fla-lakers-ben-simmons-nba-draft-2016&usg=AFQjCNFyd3fmWuo5M4hYLlAv0a73MszWJQ&sig2=w8UO9GJhA0Kr7ahBKxT9tw&bvm=bv.122676328,d.eWE

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiirde81fDMAhVDeSYKHYt9AXYQFghAMAc&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sportsrageous.com%2Fnba%2Fnba-rumors-is-ben-simmons-hiding-himself-to-land-in-lakers%2F23020%2F&usg=AFQjCNGncgXhwECwC9rJUZgK_yy9Ntd8SQ&sig2=R-3UhVy8JTa3dtAa4JRA5w&bvm=bv.122676328,d.eWE

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiirde81fDMAhVDeSYKHYt9AXYQFghPMAk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.morningnewsusa.com%2Fben-simmons-might-force-way-lakers-2355691.html&usg=AFQjCNHxl0DZJZmFIHGduIoDbmrurUNHKQ&sig2=Z6hq0ecQtJe8ZE3c5SE9HQ&bvm=bv.122676328,d.eWE

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiirde81fDMAhVDeSYKHYt9AXYQFghcMAs&url=http%3A%2F%2Fthebiglead.com%2F2015%2F10%2F29%2Fben-simmons-on-snapchat-you-can-catch-me-on-the-lakers-next-year%2F&usg=AFQjCNF5LKnuI8rDb79wPBGbMvj7bFClEw&sig2=u_-Puynsezy8JHzV1nXczQ&bvm=bv.122676328,d.eWE

[PhilasFinest]

What's with all these Ingram doesn't have a quick first step?

http://www.nbadraftroom.com/2015/04/brandon-ingram.html



As far as "fixable" is concerned, Sports Illustrated made a good point about Simmons. If he hasn't improved his jumper 5 years ago when it was deemed his biggest weakness, he's not going to improve it 5 years from now either. What you see in the last 4-5 years is what you'll see in the NBA based on his trajectory.

5 years ago Ben Simmons was 14 years old. Are you serious?

So?

Easier to get better the younger you are than the older you get. Fact that he didn't get better year after year after year after year on his jumper, and people think that all of a sudden he'll be much better 5 years from now? LOL.

WOW

[Negrodamus]

Sigh, I see some are so deep in Simmons's bandwagon that he's being credited for things that he doesn't do (play with fire or play defense in general).

I can at least acknowledge that he is worthy of his high billing, but I'm not interested in taking him over Ingram. He's the type of guy that needs to get passed on to gain motivation so he can stick it to the man.

Yea, all he has to do is learn how to shoot the ball and we've got one of the best in the league. All I need to do is learn Python, Ruby, and PHP on top of continued mastery of front end languages and I can make a multimillion dollar app. That's ALL I have to do.

[PhilasFinest]

right bc nobody has ever improved their jumper once getting to the nba right?

Lol so literal.

Right

If you can't shoot by the time your a freshman in high school, your gonna suck at it forever .

[tk76]

Towns was a force of nature during his freshman season at Kentucky. Ingram underwhelmed.

Huh? Towns had his minutes and role restricted at UK. If anything, he was drafted with this kept in mind. People knew he was a shooter and had a much more diverse game than he showed at UK because of what he showed in HS.

Towns averaged 10/6.7/1.1 and 2.2 blocks and minimal distance shooting at UK. His per 40 minutes were good, but not otherworldly.

Ingram averaged 17.3/6.8/2 and 1.4 blocks. Not sure you are making the best argument here. No doubt KAT was a more elite prospect than Ingram (or Simmons), but that was not because he dominated at UK.

Wrong. He was a plug superstar and anyone that has any experience evaluating draft prospects knew it.

- 18.5% rebounder
- 11.5% shotbocker
- 80%+ free throw shooter
- lowpost, highpost game
- passing instincts
- BPM splits of 6.5, 10.8 and 17.3 (godlike line)

Yes. We all knew he was the clear cut #1 pick. And part of that was that we knew Calipari was holding him back. The very reason you have to go to percentages and per minute stats was because Calipari held him back. And he also was forced to live in the paint, when scouts knew he was a much more multi-dimentional talent.

[tk76]

Towns was a force of nature during his freshman season at Kentucky. Ingram underwhelmed.

Huh? Towns had his minutes and role restricted at UK. If anything, he was drafted with this kept in mind. People knew he was a shooter and had a much more diverse game than he showed at UK because of what he showed in HS.

Towns averaged 10/6.7/1.1 and 2.2 blocks and minimal distance shooting at UK. His per 40 minutes were good, but not otherworldly.

Ingram averaged 17.3/6.8/2 and 1.4 blocks. Not sure you are making the best argument here. No doubt KAT was a more elite prospect than Ingram (or Simmons), but that was not because he dominated at UK.

Wrong. He was a plug superstar and anyone that has any experience evaluating draft prospects knew it.

- 18.5% rebounder
- 11.5% shotbocker
- 80%+ free throw shooter
- lowpost, highpost game
- passing instincts
- BPM splits of 6.5, 10.8 and 17.3 (godlike line)

Yes. We all knew he was the clear cut #1 pick. And part of that was that we knew Calipari was holding him back. The very reason you have to go to percentages and per minute stats was because Calipari held him back. And he also was forced to live in the paint, when scouts knew he was a much more multi-dimentional talent.

[tk76]

BPM in college:

KAT -- 17.3
Simmons -- 11.6
Okafor -- 10.9
Ingram -- 7.5

Embiid 14.9

[Kobblehead]

Sigh, I see some are so deep in Simmons's bandwagon that he's being credited for things that he doesn't do (play with fire or play defense in general).

How can you possibly hold the belief that Ben Simmons does not play defense?

He had identical STL%, BLK% and DBPM splits as Justise Winslow and Stanley Johnson.

It's like you guys pick and choose what to believe, facts be damned.

[Negrodamus]

BPM in college:

KAT -- 17.3
Simmons -- 11.6
Okafor -- 10.9
Ingram -- 7.5

Embiid 14.9

Denzel Valentine -- 16.5

Pack it up guys, I think we found our pick.

[Negrodamus]

Sigh, I see some are so deep in Simmons's bandwagon that he's being credited for things that he doesn't do (play with fire or play defense in general).

How can you possibly hold the belief that Ben Simmons does not play defense?

He had identical STL%, BLK% and DBPM slits as Justise Winslow and Stanley Johnson.

It's you guys pick and choose what to believe, facts be damned.

Because I watched his games and don't rely solely on stats. Do those percentages account for plays where he stands there on help defense and lets the guy get an easy basket?

[Kobblehead]

So you rely on your own untrained eye, biases and anecdotal outlier plays that resonated with you. I think you need to streamline your evaluating techniques.

[Kobblehead]

Yes. We all knew he was the clear cut #1 pick. And part of that was that we knew Calipari was holding him back. The very reason you have to go to percentages and per minute stats was because Calipari held him back. And he also was forced to live in the paint, when scouts knew he was a much more multi-dimentional talent.

Or because counting stats don't mean crap to me. He didn't live in the paint, his high post game was fully on display for anyone that cared to notice. He was draining 53% of his jumpers and exhibiting his passing acumen from there.

Towns didn't demonstrate anything during his rookie year that he didn't already preview at Kentucky. The only people that were caught off-guard by him were people that didn't evaluate him properly in the first place.

[phiphan]

It's funny, I actually like Ingram a lot. I'm only like 60% in favor of taking Simmons. But the anti-Simmons stuff is so over the top I feel like I have a much more favorable opinion of Simmons than I actually do.

[tk76]

So you rely on your own untrained eye, biases and anecdotal outlier plays that resonated with you. I think you need to streamline your evaluating techniques.

Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi: Your eyes can deceive you; don't trust them.

[Negrodamus]

So you rely on your own untrained eye, biases and anecdotal outlier plays that resonated with you. I think you need to streamline your evaluating techniques.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvF_1fXJxJc[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR_MSoFc4iA[/youtube]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx_fPbYlbgo&list=PLS02DrMDww6egdUy6vLzMooIZXaPCrXNi

Posted all these before, not quite anecdotal, and it's not just my untrained eye. It's not even really a secret that he doesn't care on defense.