SixerFan1976 Offseason Thread (Update Pg 73)

[ProcessDoctor]

I'm honestly shocked that the front office is so willing to trade Iguodala and keep Turner. I'm not an Iguodala lover nor a Turner hater. I like both players and think they each have unique games. I understand Iguoadala's 28 and that he's not a #1 scorer. However, he is a leader and a tremendously hard worker. I wish we could go the Boston route and put stars around him like the Celtics did to Pierce. Deron-Iguodala-Howard. I know chances are slim, but the chances to win a championship around Holiday/ET are slimmer IMO. Will it hurt us to try? Absolutely not. The fact is that without 2 or 3 all-stars on this team, we are not getting out of the East for the next 5 seasons. Boston may be finished, but Miami is still light years ahead of this team and will be until LeBron leaves or until we acquire legit superstars. I've said it before, but if we play our cards right, we can convince Deron and Dwight to play here. Secret: Keep Iguodala and do the best to keep Holiday. All 4 are friends and have a mutual respect for one another.
What would Orlando want for Dwight? Who knows at this point. Was Brook Lopez, Brooks, and 1st round pick really going to net Dwight? Was Andrew Bynum + a few pieces going to? I'm not sure and no source out there has convinced me yet. Our package consisting of Turner, Vucevic, Young, S & T Lou, and picks for Dwight + bad contract (JRich?) would be hard to beat for a rebuilding team. Again, I'm not saying it's likely to happen but I am saying that it is an option and that it would be foolish not to explore it and at least discuss the idea with their agents.

[Do the Jrue]

Of the three, I still think Evan Turner is far and away the most valuable towards a winning team. Once he gets his jumpshot to resemble an NBA basketball player, he's going to be fine.

And what if this will never happen?
People talk about him as a 19-year prospect, but at his age, there's really not so much room for improvement anymore.

It's safe to say George, Cousins, Monroe and probably Favors will have far better careers than Turner.
Only the 'hopers' need to wake up.

Yeah that's what I don't get with how people keep bringing up Turner's "potential" like he's some young raw prospect using only his athleticism right now....but he's gonna be 24 when next season starts while Derrick Favors is 20 years old, Paul George just turned 22, DeMarcus Cousins is 21, Greg Monroe just turned 22 and John Wall is 21. Turner and Derrick Rose were in the same high school class and were born in the same month as eachother, and Rose is going to be going into his 5th year in the league. It's kinda safe to say that Turner pretty much is what he is at this point. While he'll get more opportunities if Iguodala isn't on the team I'm not necessarily sure he'll suddenly morph into the All-Star we drafted him thinking he could be. And the Brandon Roy comparisons, well Brandon Roy could actually shoot the NBA three ball pretty well. How many clutch 3 pointers did we see Roy hit in just his short career? Turner can barely shoot the ball from any damn spot on the floor it seems. Some games he's good for a couple mid-range pull ups, but if there's somebody guarding him close he doesn't even try to go up with it. And I know it sounds corny, but Roy just had a swag/smoothness about his game, Turner looks like he's scared as **** half the time. Dude is goofy as hell.

[Sixerscan]

I also don't get how getting rid of Iguodala (Who took the 8th most shots/minute on the team) will some how result in more opportunities for Turner. Turner averaged 32 MPG and 12 shots per game the last 41 games we played and did jack **** with it.

[The Sixer Fixer]

While I'm admittedly not a Turner guy, I do think people are selling him a bit short if you think he's a finished product. The one thing about Turner's past is it's ALWAYS taken him a year or two to adapt to the next level he plays at. I don't think he was great early in HS, we know he wasn't at OSU and so far he hasn't adjusted quickly in the NBA. I'm willing to give him 1 more year though. I mean, if you could more him and pickup a nice big man prospect, then by all means, do it, but I'm not ready to write him off and trade him for pennies on the dollar.

I would like to see what he can do with some shooters around him and maybe an athletic big. While he's disappointed, this current roster is such a mess, I think it makes it hard to truly evaluate what we have in some guys (mainly Jrue and ET).

[Sixerscan]

He led the big 10 in scoring his sophomore year.

What is early in high school? You mean like when he was a 15 years old? He was a top recruit by his junior year.

[The Sixer Fixer]

He led the big 10 in scoring his sophomore year.

What did he do as a Freshman? 8.5 ppg in 27 mpg...that's what I mean about taking time to adjust.

[ProcessDoctor]

I also don't get how getting rid of Iguodala (Who took the 8th most shots/minute on the team) will some how result in more opportunities for Turner. Turner averaged 32 MPG and 12 shots per game the last 41 games we played and did jack **** with it.

Agreed. I think we are go to be very disappointed next season if/when he gets more chances and has similar production.

[The Sixer Fixer]

He led the big 10 in scoring his sophomore year.

What is early in high school? You mean like when he was a 15 years old? He was a top recruit by his junior year.

Elite prospects are usually dominant from the day they enter HS....taking until your Junior year isn't exactly fast progress IMO.

[Sixerscan]

You're seriously taking whether or not someone was a highly ranked prospect when he was 16 years old as a predictor of his future development in the NBA? Rankings at that point are worthless.

Not dominating high school before you get your drivers' license or college your freshman year is completely different than what Turner has (not) done his first two years in the league. We need to stop the excuses and trade him while he still has value.

edit- And if we are going to take these slow starts seriously, if anything it's evidence for the case that he doesn't have the talent to dominate, and needs some sort of maturity advantage to do so, something he won't ever have in the NBA to the degree he had it in college or high school.

I sincerely do hate taking this side in every turner argument, but we need to stop the excuses before his trade value comes down to his actual level of play.

[Numb3rs]

+177 (850 regular season minutes)

Holiday - Meeks - Iguodala (2011-12)


+171 (1152 regular season minutes)

Holiday - Meeks - Iguodala (2010-11)


+9 (949 regular season minutes)

Holiday - Turner (2011-12)


Holiday - Turner - Iguodala has not been in our top 50 three player combinations in either of those seasons.

Enough said?

[The Sixer Fixer]

You're seriously taking whether or not someone was a highly ranked prospect when he was 16 years old as a predictor of his future development in the NBA? Rankings at that point are worthless.

Not dominating high school before you get your drivers' license or college your freshman year is completely different than what Turner has (not) done his first two years in the league. We need to stop the excuses and trade him while he still has value.

Again, the point I made was it took him time to mature at each level. Not starting in HS until you are junior tells me he needed time...8.5 ppg as a freshman in college (with significant minutes) tells me he needed time....so far not being the player we thought he was after 2 years in the NBA tells me he needed time. You can clearly argue he will never be good (and trust me I have been close to saying that myself), but it's completely not uncommon for some players to take time before they break out in the NBA. How can we be so sure Turner won't be one of them?

James Harden didn't get significant time until his 3rd year (12 pts, 3 reb, 2 assists in 2nd year). Yes, I know he had an amazing true shooting %, but he still was only playing under 27 mpg. His numbers went through the roof this year with less that 5 mpg more. Is this not possible for Turner to do in his 3rd year too? I know the argument will be "he's playing along side two stars, that's why his #'s were down or why he didn't have the ball enough", but to be honest playing along side 2 studs probably makes things a little easier on him offensively. Turner has garbage offense players around him so it could be argued the D can key in on him more.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here....like I said, I'm not a Turner guy...I have my doubts he can take it to that next level. I'm just willing to give him 1 more year to prove me wrong as I seriously doubt he's a finished product

[corwin]

I guess I'm not getting all of the Turner hate. Without getting into Iggy' many short-comings, Turner came out of one of the weakest drafts in memory. Monroe is Detroit's version of Sponge & I wouldn't be crying over him. DC has already gotten one coach fired, Wall went before Turner, and Favors is still a work in progress. I will admit that I was torn over Favors vs. Turner. I do like Paul George but there's always a guy that slides and becomes better than expected. BTW, he was the 10th pick, so other teams missed on him. IMO, Turner will not be a huge star but he is a multi-positional player who plays with a lot of heart ^ he should have the same 10+ years as a starter as Iggy. Besides, after watching the last 4 years of the Iggy/Brand/Lou team, it really is time for a change.

[bmyers3317]

People are missing the point.
1) Iguodala can and will opt of his contract after next season and will get another deal from someone similar to his last deal and we will be left holding the bag. Now is the time to get something for him because "he is our most valuable asset". It has nothing to do with Turner or Iggy vs Turner.

2) He will be playing all offseason in the olymipics with his Achilles tendon problems with little rest.

[The Sixer Fixer]

I don't think it's a given he will opt-out of 15 million after next year. With the new CBA and all the tax penalties teams face, I think in general contract values are going to go down (for non-max guys). I think he would have a hard time getting anything over 12-13 mil/yr. Do you walk away from a couple extra million because you think you won't be able to get that same 12-13 million per by waiting another year? Personally, I think the only reason he would opt-out is more about wanting to go to a new team as opposed to him worrying about getting his next contract a year earlier. If he thought the injuries were an issue he wouldn't participate in the olympic stuff.

[Sixerscan]

You're seriously taking whether or not someone was a highly ranked prospect when he was 16 years old as a predictor of his future development in the NBA? Rankings at that point are worthless.

Not dominating high school before you get your drivers' license or college your freshman year is completely different than what Turner has (not) done his first two years in the league. We need to stop the excuses and trade him while he still has value.

Again, the point I made was it took him time to mature at each level. Not starting in HS until you are junior tells me he needed time...8.5 ppg as a freshman in college (with significant minutes) tells me he needed time....so far not being the player we thought he was after 2 years in the NBA tells me he needed time. You can clearly argue he will never be good (and trust me I have been close to saying that myself), but it's completely not uncommon for some players to take time before they break out in the NBA. How can we be so sure Turner won't be one of them?

James Harden didn't get significant time until his 3rd year (12 pts, 3 reb, 2 assists in 2nd year). Yes, I know he had an amazing true shooting %, but he still was only playing under 27 mpg. His numbers went through the roof this year with less that 5 mpg more. Is this not possible for Turner to do in his 3rd year too? I know the argument will be "he's playing along side two stars, that's why his #'s were down or why he didn't have the ball enough", but to be honest playing along side 2 studs probably makes things a little easier on him offensively. Turner has garbage offense players around him so it could be argued the D can key in on him more.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here....like I said, I'm not a Turner guy...I have my doubts he can take it to that next level. I'm just willing to give him 1 more year to prove me wrong as I seriously doubt he's a finished product

Yeah I get that. Certainly not lumping you into all of that.

The thing is, it is really rare for someone like Turner, who was a guard that played about half the game as a 22 and 23 year old and put up PERs of 10.8 and 12.6, to suddenly "get it" and become a stud. Most guys that start slow do so because they came out too early. Evan wasn't some 19 year old project.

Harden, as you said, was significantly more efficient than Evan early in his career (Also came out a year earlier). We can argue about whether this success was due to the excellent situation he was drafted into (Although he never had a fatal hole in his game the way Turner can't shoot further out than 5 feet) but what should be pretty clear is that Evan will never be placed into such a great incubator with the Sixers.

[Skates]

People are missing the point.
1) Iguodala can and will opt of his contract after next season and will get another deal from someone similar to his last deal and we will be left holding the bag. Now is the time to get something for him because "he is our most valuable asset". It has nothing to do with Turner or Iggy vs Turner.

2) He will be playing all offseason in the olymipics with his Achilles tendon problems with little rest.

+1 and that is from a guy who loves Iggy and has greatly owered his expectations for Turner. These are the cold, hard facts. Even if he doesn't make the final Olympic team, that achilles is chronic and those legs have a lot of miles on them.

The other reason they aren't trading Turner, because really, why not trade both guys? He has no reasonable trade value in the league. Unless and until he develops that mid range jump shot he is a spirited, average athlete with versatility and a nice handle. In other words, a glue guy. All you could trade Turner for now is someone else's disappointment. Might as well keep him and hope that he starts hitting that jumper. At worst you dump him or re-sign him as a role player when his rookie deal is up. At best he develops that jumper and becomes a solid starter or top sixth man.

Keeping ET doesn't mean building the team around him, it just means he doesn't get traded this summer.

[The Sixer Fixer]

Oh trust me, I know how far he will need to come to make me change my mind about him. I mean, watching him take a jumper is like torture to me. I do think he will get better shooting wise though. How much better will be the real question though. What I would mainly like to see him get better at is driving the lane and pulling up for the short 5-10 foot jumper (instead of going to the rim and getting trapped/blocked). He did that a lot in college and was real good at it. Anything beyond 15 ft isn't his shot right now. While he has his flaws in the rest of his game, he still in probably the best rebounding SG in the NBA and he's one of the better ball handlers too. The thing that upset me as his minutes grew was that he didn't look to facilitate for other...it was all about him getting his when he put the ball on the floor. If he can get better at finding him teammates, that will help him a lot too. Getting some better shooter and a big who can catch a lob would help a lot too.

I think this is most I have ever supported Turner in the last 2 years...to be honest, I feel a little dirty and should probably focus on something else lol.

[Numb3rs]

Can anyone guess what Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, Paul Pierce, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Tayshaun Prince and Dwight Howard have in common?

[Sixerscan]

do tell

[Numb3rs]

I could be wrong, but they are the only active players who have played more regular season games for their current team than Andre Iguodala.