Tobias Harris Trade Thread

[Jailblazers7]

I think Ben was a shield for a lot of people in the org. Tobias got to hide behind it, Embiid’s repeated lack of composure in 4th quarters, FO used him as an excuse for not covering up for their bad choices, and Doc even got to hide behind it last year.

Now it looks like Tobias will get to be the team’s shield lol. All the things about him are true - he’s overpaid, a bad fit, and stubborn in his ways. BUT, I do think this team has the ability to win a title if Embiid and Harden play up to their talent/skill level given the wide open nature of the league this year.

If Embiid/Harden don’t play well enough in big playoff games, which is a bit of a pattern for both of them, then they should shoulder the bulk of the responsibility.

[stormi]

Statistically, per impact catchall metrics, Ben's defense provides more positivity for his team in the regular season or playoffs than Tobias' "offense".

[Murray_17]

Just look at the buyout market, I can find guys who can provide me what Ben can provide on defense closer than guys who can provide what Tobi can. Nobody is letting a near 20ppg with good scoring %s go, while there’s an abundant on one dimensional defensive players in the league such as DeAndre Jordan or Derrick Favors.

Derrick Favors is not a good defender, nor is DJ. And i'm disgusted wth Ben as much as the next guy but comparing what he provides with those guys is simplistic at best. This is like saying Draymond or Gobert are easy to replace players.

Draymond and Gobert can anchor a defense, Ben Simmons, DAJ and Favors can’t.

Yeah and DAJ and Favors play mostly as centers which is why they're not good defenders. A center needs to be able to anchor your defense in the modern NBA.

Ben Simmons can be plugged at defensive positions 1-4 and even 5 against smallers centers, can lead a fastbreak while elite at producing steals or deflections. The only other guys with that ability combination in the entire league are Giannis, Lebron and Draymond.

Comparing him with DAJ or Favors just because he left and behave like an ass is just petty and ridicule

[76ciology]

I dont think Tobias was able to “hide behind it” or be “shielded” with Ben. Because when Ben was here, people was FORCED to look at Tobias to be that second option behind Embiid after being the team’s second best scorer and having the highest payroll on the team.

When Embiid struggles on offense, who did we blame at? Tobias. When Embiid struggles on defense, did we ever blame Ben?

Ben was the one who’s being able to “hide behind” or be “shielded” Tobias, instead. Without Tobias, people would raise the issue of Ben’s horrific scoring and shooting issues.

[76ciology]

Statistically, per impact catchall metrics, Ben's defense provides more positivity for his team in the regular season or playoffs than Tobias' "offense".

2018: Ben was a liability that TJ has to start at PG
2019: Ben was a liability that he has to be at dunker spot
2020: Ben was a liability when he wasn’t able to play
2021: Ben was a liability when he shot 33% from the line

Tobias is not Khris Middleton or Klay Thompson. He is not as good as those guys. But Tobias was not as big of a liability that Ben was in the playoffs.

Those same “metrics” lead us to this mess. Where we could have used the same “metrics” to land us Kawhi or someone really good but we were blinded by these “on/off Ben+Biid 2 man unit metrics”.

[stormi]

Tobias is not Khris Middleton or Klay Thompson. He is not as good as those guys. But Tobias was not as big of a liability that Ben was in the playoffs.

Heavily disagree. Tobias was actually our biggest floundering presence in 2019. He's the specific reason why we lost the Raptors series. He was the worst defensive player on the court and forced Joel to mark Siakam while being an inefficient offensive player that can't catch and shoot or create to any degree where you'd consider giving him the ball for any amount of considerable time. He was relegated to the 5th option on offense, and even then shot us completely out of games on wide open looks.

Tobias also had one of the worst performances I've ever seen against Boston in the bubble.

And then last season against Atlanta, when this team was screaming for someone to score the ball Harris couldn't be relied upon at all.

Keep in mind, Harris saves his worst performances of the year for the most important moments. His 7/23 including 2/13 from 3 against Toronto in Game 4 in a 5 point loss? Classic.

Game 7 against the Hawks in a 7 point loss? 8/24. Kobe mode! Including 2/7 from 3.

Harris is an offensive player that provides no consistent offense all while being the worst defensive player on the floor at all times. Disgusting excuse for a basketball player.

[stormi]

Playoff-LEBRON, which essentially aggregates box score numbers and impact metrics like ON/OFF grade Simmons as a net neutral offensive presence and a solidly positive entity defensively.

2016-2018 (Miami, Boston): +0.18 offensively & +1.35 defensively - Net: +1.53
2019-2021 (Brooklyn, Toronto, Washington, Atlanta): +0.06 offensively & +1.74 defensively - Net: 1.80

Which passes my eye test. Simmons is a huge negative block offensively in the half court, but a tremendous fast break creator of offense and three point shooting. He is not a point guard. Also a pretty disruptive defensive presence.

As for Mr. Bookworm

2019-2021 (Brooklyn, Toronto, Boston, Washington, Atlanta): -0.18 offensively & -1.30 defensively - Net: -1.48

Which also passes my eye test. Defensive sieve that can't guard the perimeter or the paint with no consistent offense when it matters. Loves to brick turnarounds and sky high floaters when you desperately need a bucket out of him.

He defines the Brand era Sixers for me, but it's the James Harden era now.

OT: Harden's '18-'20 P-Lebron is a monstrous 5.28, which is the best three year stretch of his career. With the hobbled year with Brooklyn included in the dataset '19-'21 he scores a 4.65 which in context are super mega elite. The only guys edging him out consistently are Kawhi (freakish), Draymond (playoff horse), Embiid, Lebron, Giannis, AD and Steph. Harden's numbers are right there with them. Also PG13 and CP3 are in that conversation as most consistent playoff floor tilters.

[Jailblazers7]

Fascinating stats, especially the Harden piece.

This is probably a question for a statistician but isn’t Ben Simmons basically built to manipulate stats like LEBRON? He avoids having his play register as a negative by simply not recording any stats in big 4th quarters other than maybe a rebound or an assist here or there. The only negative would be plus/minus but playing next to a player as good as Embiid helps keep those numbers decent.

[Iverson Armband]

Fascinating stats, especially the Harden piece.

This is probably a question for a statistician but isn’t Ben Simmons basically built to manipulate stats like LEBRON? He avoids having his play register as a negative by simply not recording any stats in big 4th quarters other than maybe a rebound or an assist here or there. The only negative would be plus/minus but playing next to a player as good as Embiid helps keep those numbers decent.

I know this isn’t statistical or what you’re specifically inquiring about, but I think you’re absolutely right. The way Ben Simmons plays offensively is strategic and by design. He plays “safe” (won’t shoot outside 5 feet, won’t go to the basket unless there is a clear lane, seeks out 3pt shooters in transition, etc), so you can’t definitively determine if he’s good or bad on offense. It shows in the data grading him out as neutral when he’s largely invisible, that’s not a coincidence and I think that’s the way he wants it.

[76ciology]

Anyway just happy we dont have Ben and Nets are the one who have to deal with Ben.

Whereas we can just hack Ben down the stretch to hurt the Nets and have Thybulle on Ben where Thybulle can roam around and create havoc on the defensive end, even possibly hide Maxey on defense on Ben.

And if Ben tries to lockdown Harden, Harden can continue to average 30 something pts on him like how he has done based on their match-ups, this is by calling 2 man games where we can wipe out Ben on defense.

Lastly, If teams are able to exploit Ben down the stretch just as how they were for the last 4 seasons in the playoffs of the 2nd round, I expect Nets to bench Ben and have Bruce Brown play his role.

[stormi]

Who is the ideal (and realistic) 4 that Morey can acquire to maximize our starting five?

Curious if you guys have any unique suggestions I haven't thought about.

Assume the lineup for all intents and purposes is:

Harden
Maxey
Thybulle
()
Embiid

[spikeslovechild]

Who is the ideal (and realistic) 4 that Morey can acquire to maximize our starting five?

Curious if you guys have any unique suggestions I haven't thought about.

Assume the lineup for all intents and purposes is:

Harden
Maxey
Thybulle
()
Embiid

Ideally a playmaking 4 who can bomb from 3.

[stormi]

Who is the ideal (and realistic) 4 that Morey can acquire to maximize our starting five?

Curious if you guys have any unique suggestions I haven't thought about.

Assume the lineup for all intents and purposes is:

Harden
Maxey
Thybulle
()
Embiid

Ideally a playmaking 4 who can bomb from 3.

Name names

[spikeslovechild]

Who is the ideal (and realistic) 4 that Morey can acquire to maximize our starting five?

Curious if you guys have any unique suggestions I haven't thought about.

Assume the lineup for all intents and purposes is:

Harden
Maxey
Thybulle
()
Embiid

Ideally a playmaking 4 who can bomb from 3.

Name names

Kevin Love would be one guy who would fit well

Maybe you swap him for Julias Randle and hope he can get back on track

[stormi]

Ideally a playmaking 4 who can bomb from 3.

Name names

Kevin Love would be one guy who would fit well

Great shout. I really like Kevin Love. I wasn't opposed to getting him last summer when he was viewed as a cap dump.

[Kobblehead]

Tobias better read a book about things to do in Oklahoma City

[stormi]

Tobias better read a book about things to do in Oklahoma City

Toss some suggestions.

[FireMorey]

Tobias doesn't necessarily have to be a salary dump trade. It could be a bad contract for another bad contract that's a better fit.

Curious how people think Jerami Grant would fit on this roster.

[stormi]

Tobias doesn't necessarily have to be a salary dump trade. It could be a bad contract for another bad contract that's a better fit.

Curious how people think Jerami Grant would fit on this roster.

I personally am a lot lower on Grant than a lot of Sixers fans. I don't think he's all that good at basketball. He would provide an upgraded defensive presence though for sure.

[ProcessDoctor]

Tobias for THJ + Powell

Get a 3rd guard who can keep up the scoring and bomb 3's when Harden or Maxey are out plus a springy C who can catch lobs and rebound at an excellent rate.

The other variant of this that accomplishes the same thing is Gordon + Wood.

Maxey(32)/Harden(16)
Harden(16)/THJ(28)/Green(4)
Thybulle(28)/Green(20)
MLE(28)/Niang(20)
Embiid(32)/Powell(16)

Maxey/Milton/Springer
Harden/THJ/Joe
Thybulle/Green/Korkmaz
MLE/Niang/Reed
Embiid/Powell/Bassey

Assume my MLE player is Covington (obviously lol).