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2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III

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What should we do at #3?

Ace Bailey
16
21%
Tre Johnson
14
18%
V.J. Edgecombe
29
37%
Other
2
3%
Trade
17
22%
 
Total votes: 78

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Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#1341 » by CPops57 » Yesterday 7:21 pm

Arsenal wrote:
Kon basically gamed the system with low usage on a totally stacked team, which is inflating his efficiency compared to his peers who had the burden of shouldering the offense like Tre, KJ, Ace etc. Unlike others he had the luxury of only shooting wide open 3's, wide open driving lanes, and a premium lob threat.



1) Kon would not have earned a starting job at Duke as a freshman if he wasn't legit. That is not something that is handed to somebody "gaming the system".

2) Just curious, how many successful lobs did Proctor or Sion or other teammates throw up for Maluach? Seriously asking. Why could Kon take advantage of a stacked team and others couldn't?

3) During most of the ACC tournament, Cooper Flagg was injured and Kon was put into the role of #1 option. He helped Duke win the tournament and won the MVP. Over the three games, he averaged 21.0 points per game on 48.6% field goal shooting, with 5.0 rebounds, 4.7 assists, and 1.3 steals per game. It's admittedly a small sample size, but that's elite production and a really good indication that his game is capable of scaling up.

4) People have analyzed Kon's on/off splits without Flagg, and (no surprise) he was really good whenever Cooper wasn't on the court, including against the best college teams.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2450188&start=140#p118675676

In lineups without Flagg (lineup B), Kon's AST% rose to 23.7%, got to the rim a bit more, and didn't have a big drop in efficiency.


Good numbers with Flagg (lineup A) and without (lineup B) against top 60 competition. His ability to get to the rim and finish didn't drop against good teams, and his AST% stayed at a respectable number.





Arsenal wrote:
His athletic testing was atrocious and on par for centers, not even close to NBA-level guards or wings. It's absolutely correct that he won't defend as he's a tweener, way too slow for guards and too small to guard forwards.



1) His athletic testing was lower tier, but not atrocious. The main thing that matters is that he meets some baseline of athleticism where he's not going to get run out of the league. We see in the NBA Finals that small and slow TJ McConnell is sometimes the best player on the court. We've seen that Jokic is arguably the best player in the NBA for the last 5 years, and he's a slow fat man that cannot jump. Basketball is a skill and mental game as well as a physical contest and great skill and other attributes can trump athleticism.

2) Kon is not athletic, but his body frame and weight starts out great for guarding bigger players. Despite being shorter, he's immediately going to be able to hold his ground better than a lot of faster athletes. Look at combine weights for some of the players bandied about at #3 compared to Kon for example.


Arsenal wrote:
It has nothing to do with racism since everyone has acknowledged that his teammate Cooper Flagg is a tremendous athlete with excellent positional size. Crying "racism" for Kon is just another cope.


Nobody can read minds and know what's in other peoples' heart, but I think a lot of people do tend to put White snipers into their own little box and not consider their games beyond that. There are posters who are evaluating the draft that still think that Kon is just a pure sniper and has nothing else to his game. They don't look at his stats driving to the rim and finishing and other great things that he does far better than much better athletes. Is that motivated by racial stereotypes or something else?
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Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#1342 » by agiaco » Yesterday 7:49 pm

CPops57 wrote:
Arsenal wrote:
Kon basically gamed the system with low usage on a totally stacked team, which is inflating his efficiency compared to his peers who had the burden of shouldering the offense like Tre, KJ, Ace etc. Unlike others he had the luxury of only shooting wide open 3's, wide open driving lanes, and a premium lob threat.



1) Kon would not have earned a starting job at Duke as a freshman if he wasn't legit. That is not something that is handed to somebody "gaming the system".

2) Just curious, how many successful lobs did Proctor or Sion or other teammates throw up for Maluach? Seriously asking. Why could Kon take advantage of a stacked team and others couldn't?

3) During most of the ACC tournament, Cooper Flagg was injured and Kon was put into the role of #1 option. He helped Duke win the tournament and won the MVP. Over the three games, he averaged 21.0 points per game on 48.6% field goal shooting, with 5.0 rebounds, 4.7 assists, and 1.3 steals per game. It's admittedly a small sample size, but that's elite production and a really good indication that his game is capable of scaling up.

4) People have analyzed Kon's on/off splits without Flagg, and (no surprise) he was really good whenever Cooper wasn't on the court, including against the best college teams.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2450188&start=140#p118675676

In lineups without Flagg (lineup B), Kon's AST% rose to 23.7%, got to the rim a bit more, and didn't have a big drop in efficiency.


Good numbers with Flagg (lineup A) and without (lineup B) against top 60 competition. His ability to get to the rim and finish didn't drop against good teams, and his AST% stayed at a respectable number.





Arsenal wrote:
His athletic testing was atrocious and on par for centers, not even close to NBA-level guards or wings. It's absolutely correct that he won't defend as he's a tweener, way too slow for guards and too small to guard forwards.



1) His athletic testing was lower tier, but not atrocious. The main thing that matters is that he meets some baseline of athleticism where he's not going to get run out of the league. We see in the NBA Finals that small and slow TJ McConnell is sometimes the best player on the court. We've seen that Jokic is arguably the best player in the NBA for the last 5 years, and he's a slow fat man that cannot jump. Basketball is a skill and mental game as well as a physical contest and great skill and other attributes can trump athleticism.

2) Kon is not athletic, but his body frame and weight starts out great for guarding bigger players. Despite being shorter, he's immediately going to be able to hold his ground better than a lot of faster athletes. Look at combine weights for some of the players bandied about at #3 compared to Kon for example.


Arsenal wrote:
It has nothing to do with racism since everyone has acknowledged that his teammate Cooper Flagg is a tremendous athlete with excellent positional size. Crying "racism" for Kon is just another cope.


Nobody can read minds and know what's in other peoples' heart, but I think a lot of people do tend to put White snipers into their own little box and not consider their games beyond that. There are posters who are evaluating the draft that still think that Kon is just a pure sniper and has nothing else to his game. They don't look at his stats driving to the rim and finishing and other great things that he does far better than much better athletes. Is that motivated by racial stereotypes or something else?


Kon is the guy I'd be happiest about coming away with, trading down a few spots. Maybe he doesn't have the same upside as some of the other prospects, but he checks so many boxes of what you want out of a starter on a contending team.
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Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#1343 » by Kobblehead » Yesterday 7:55 pm

Kon Knueppel actually reminds me of Malcolm Brogdon/Desmond Bane. He would be a great pick at #3.
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Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#1344 » by Negrodamus » Yesterday 8:05 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=46

Total animal on both ends but particularly defense. I know everyone wants shooting, but if he gets to 75% FT, 33% from 3, then he might be 2nd or 3rd best player in this draft. He’s currently a good defensive version of Julius Randle.
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Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#1345 » by ProcessDoctor » Yesterday 8:26 pm

Negrodamus wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=46

Total animal on both ends but particularly defense. I know everyone wants shooting, but if he gets to 75% FT, 33% from 3, then he might be 2nd or 3rd best player in this draft. He’s currently a good defensive version of Julius Randle.


If we can get another lotto pick somehow, I'd love to grab this kid.
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Maxey/McCain/Butler
Grimes/Edwards/Gordon
Oubre/Council
George/()/()
Embiid/Bona/Drummond
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Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#1346 » by Mik317 » Yesterday 8:45 pm

Kon is the guy whose tape and stats are great. Like even passively watching prior to knowing we'd have a pick, he always played well in the Duke games I watched.....beyond Maluach not getting a single goddam rebound I feel like they lost that game because they froze Kon out.

The going phrase is that the game is built on outliers. Steph was a small skinny guard who wouldn't be more than a spark plug like his daddy at the time of his draft. Went on to change the game. Jokic is a fellow fat boi who is mid at best on defense which is a non starter for a center....3 time MVP and probably the best in the world rn. KD couldn't lift weights. ect.

But man idk lol. Kon checks a lot of boxes but until I see him survive on an nba court its a tough sell for sure. Its not about being a lock down defender just surviving. Luka is an insane player who every team could use and yet his non existent defense has lowkey cost his team in back to back years....and he's Luka **** Doncic lol. Those above outliers also spent most of their careers in near perfect situations too...and we never will build such a thing here lol its not allowed.

Unlike others I don't worry about passing on Kon and him panning out tho as I can cope and say he wouldn't have done so here at least lol.
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Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#1347 » by sodmoraes » Yesterday 9:02 pm

Mik317 wrote:Kon is the guy whose tape and stats are great. Like even passively watching prior to knowing we'd have a pick, he always played well in the Duke games I watched.....beyond Maluach not getting a single goddam rebound I feel like they lost that game because they froze Kon out.

The going phrase is that the game is built on outliers. Steph was a small skinny guard who wouldn't be more than a spark plug like his daddy at the time of his draft. Went on to change the game. Jokic is a fellow fat boi who is mid at best on defense which is a non starter for a center....3 time MVP and probably the best in the world rn. KD couldn't lift weights. ect.

But man idk lol. Kon checks a lot of boxes but until I see him survive on an nba court its a tough sell for sure. Its not about being a lock down defender just surviving. Luka is an insane player who every team could use and yet his non existent defense has lowkey cost his team in back to back years....and he's Luka **** Doncic lol. Those above outliers also spent most of their careers in near perfect situations too...and we never will build such a thing here lol its not allowed.

Unlike others I don't worry about passing on Kon and him panning out tho as I can cope and say he wouldn't have done so here at least lol.
Using your post logic, i think we should draft Tre, instead of Kon. Hes just as good as CS shooter than Nipples, but his off the dribble shooting is 1000% better. Yeah his defense sucks and hes subpar driving to the rim, but shooting is the most important skill in the game. Who cares if he doesnt jump as high as Edge.

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Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#1348 » by Iverson Armband » Yesterday 9:07 pm

sodmoraes wrote:
Mik317 wrote:Kon is the guy whose tape and stats are great. Like even passively watching prior to knowing we'd have a pick, he always played well in the Duke games I watched.....beyond Maluach not getting a single goddam rebound I feel like they lost that game because they froze Kon out.

The going phrase is that the game is built on outliers. Steph was a small skinny guard who wouldn't be more than a spark plug like his daddy at the time of his draft. Went on to change the game. Jokic is a fellow fat boi who is mid at best on defense which is a non starter for a center....3 time MVP and probably the best in the world rn. KD couldn't lift weights. ect.

But man idk lol. Kon checks a lot of boxes but until I see him survive on an nba court its a tough sell for sure. Its not about being a lock down defender just surviving. Luka is an insane player who every team could use and yet his non existent defense has lowkey cost his team in back to back years....and he's Luka **** Doncic lol. Those above outliers also spent most of their careers in near perfect situations too...and we never will build such a thing here lol its not allowed.

Unlike others I don't worry about passing on Kon and him panning out tho as I can cope and say he wouldn't have done so here at least lol.
Using your post logic, i think we should draft Tre, instead of Kon. Hes just as good as CS shooter than Nipples, but his off the dribble shooting is 1000% better. Yeah his defense sucks and hes subpar driving to the rim, but shooting is the most important skill in the game. Who cares if he doesnt jump as high as Edge.

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He’s said he would take Tre if it were him.
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Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#1349 » by agiaco » Yesterday 9:15 pm

sodmoraes wrote:
Mik317 wrote:Kon is the guy whose tape and stats are great. Like even passively watching prior to knowing we'd have a pick, he always played well in the Duke games I watched.....beyond Maluach not getting a single goddam rebound I feel like they lost that game because they froze Kon out.

The going phrase is that the game is built on outliers. Steph was a small skinny guard who wouldn't be more than a spark plug like his daddy at the time of his draft. Went on to change the game. Jokic is a fellow fat boi who is mid at best on defense which is a non starter for a center....3 time MVP and probably the best in the world rn. KD couldn't lift weights. ect.

But man idk lol. Kon checks a lot of boxes but until I see him survive on an nba court its a tough sell for sure. Its not about being a lock down defender just surviving. Luka is an insane player who every team could use and yet his non existent defense has lowkey cost his team in back to back years....and he's Luka **** Doncic lol. Those above outliers also spent most of their careers in near perfect situations too...and we never will build such a thing here lol its not allowed.

Unlike others I don't worry about passing on Kon and him panning out tho as I can cope and say he wouldn't have done so here at least lol.
Using your post logic, i think we should draft Tre, instead of Kon. Hes just as good as CS shooter than Nipples, but his off the dribble shooting is 1000% better. Yeah his defense sucks and hes subpar driving to the rim, but shooting is the most important skill in the game. Who cares if he doesnt jump as high as Edge.

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I'd be alright with him, although there's already a logjam of scoring-oriented guards on this roster. It's my belief that Kon's going to provide more overall for a team that (if health is on their side, big if) still has a chance to compete soon.
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Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#1350 » by M2J » Yesterday 10:05 pm

Honestly one of Kon or VJ are likely to be star level good... Both have high floors of being a really good player. Again, this draft is quite talented and that's possibly why Daryl is so open to trading back and acquiring more.

Only reason I'm not super high on them is because I think they have a higher hill to climb to get to stardom than like Tre for instance... But I think they have higher floors
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Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#1351 » by Mik317 » Yesterday 10:11 pm

sodmoraes wrote:
Mik317 wrote:Kon is the guy whose tape and stats are great. Like even passively watching prior to knowing we'd have a pick, he always played well in the Duke games I watched.....beyond Maluach not getting a single goddam rebound I feel like they lost that game because they froze Kon out.

The going phrase is that the game is built on outliers. Steph was a small skinny guard who wouldn't be more than a spark plug like his daddy at the time of his draft. Went on to change the game. Jokic is a fellow fat boi who is mid at best on defense which is a non starter for a center....3 time MVP and probably the best in the world rn. KD couldn't lift weights. ect.

But man idk lol. Kon checks a lot of boxes but until I see him survive on an nba court its a tough sell for sure. Its not about being a lock down defender just surviving. Luka is an insane player who every team could use and yet his non existent defense has lowkey cost his team in back to back years....and he's Luka **** Doncic lol. Those above outliers also spent most of their careers in near perfect situations too...and we never will build such a thing here lol its not allowed.

Unlike others I don't worry about passing on Kon and him panning out tho as I can cope and say he wouldn't have done so here at least lol.


Using your post logic, i think we should draft Tre, instead of Kon. Hes just as good as CS shooter than Nipples, but his off the dribble shooting is 1000% better. Yeah his defense sucks and hes subpar driving to the rim, but shooting is the most important skill in the game. Who cares if he doesnt jump as high as Edge.

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as Iverson Armband said, Tre is probably my choice if it was up to me (be grateful everyday that it isn't...I'd make Collars look like Sam Presti) because I like scoring.

HOWEVA

1. Didn't watch much Texas as I did Duke.

2. Kon is built like a tank and those guys can at least Harden defense themselves by just being strong...Tre is skinny as **** and on tape be it effort or stiff hips, his defense just doesn't show so its a lot of projection based off of nothing atm whereas Kon's defense was fine and has some stats to back it up even I doubt it from a pure eye test angle. This makes Tre a less safe bet than VJ and Kon even if I'd still bite the bullet.

My overall issue rn tho is that because of our roster make up, it just feels like difficult decisions need to be made and made sooner than expected. Tre, VJ and Kon all can in a pinch play the 3 but the 2 is probably their best position (maybe even the 1 if some crazy development happens)...which is the case with the only players that matter rn in Maxey and McCain...who also may not fit together (Grimes is whatever; he was cool but it came during a time where the team didn't care and he has multiple years prior of just being a guy so he doesn't matter for decision making purposes rn). Which means for longterm the FO has to make the decision on which 2 of the 3 (or 4 if Grimes is legit I guess) guards fit...it won't matter next year as a rookie probably is best coming off the bench but it is a looming decision and its one I feel like we will be on the SacKings side of instead of the Pacers side yknow? This is why I want Harper because he's bigger than most of the 3 guard targets rn, is a real PG so can play next to Maxey (who I think the FO would choose if it comes to that btw) and guard up due to his heft AND IMO he has real star upside that doesn't require as much squinting the others do (not to say he's perfect). This is also why Ace remains an option despite everything else about him telling me no. We aren't in position to worry about fit but at a certain point there are too many cooks in the kitchen but then again if you pass on the next Ray Allen, Wade or American Luka (these are jokes but not really) because of Maxey and he finally hits his ceiling or McCain's run was flukey or Grimes returns to earth for fit you are also ****.

This pick is way more important than it probably should be lol.
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Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#1352 » by Iverson Armband » Yesterday 10:26 pm

Mik317 wrote:
sodmoraes wrote:
Mik317 wrote:Kon is the guy whose tape and stats are great. Like even passively watching prior to knowing we'd have a pick, he always played well in the Duke games I watched.....beyond Maluach not getting a single goddam rebound I feel like they lost that game because they froze Kon out.

The going phrase is that the game is built on outliers. Steph was a small skinny guard who wouldn't be more than a spark plug like his daddy at the time of his draft. Went on to change the game. Jokic is a fellow fat boi who is mid at best on defense which is a non starter for a center....3 time MVP and probably the best in the world rn. KD couldn't lift weights. ect.

But man idk lol. Kon checks a lot of boxes but until I see him survive on an nba court its a tough sell for sure. Its not about being a lock down defender just surviving. Luka is an insane player who every team could use and yet his non existent defense has lowkey cost his team in back to back years....and he's Luka **** Doncic lol. Those above outliers also spent most of their careers in near perfect situations too...and we never will build such a thing here lol its not allowed.

Unlike others I don't worry about passing on Kon and him panning out tho as I can cope and say he wouldn't have done so here at least lol.


Using your post logic, i think we should draft Tre, instead of Kon. Hes just as good as CS shooter than Nipples, but his off the dribble shooting is 1000% better. Yeah his defense sucks and hes subpar driving to the rim, but shooting is the most important skill in the game. Who cares if he doesnt jump as high as Edge.

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as Iverson Armband said, Tre is probably my choice if it was up to me (be grateful everyday that it isn't...I'd make Collars look like Sam Presti) because I like scoring.

HOWEVA

1. Didn't watch much Texas as I did Duke.

2. Kon is built like a tank and those guys can at least Harden defense themselves by just being strong...Tre is skinny as **** and on tape be it effort or stiff hips, his defense just doesn't show so its a lot of projection based off of nothing atm whereas Kon's defense was fine and has some stats to back it up even I doubt it from a pure eye test angle. This makes Tre a less safe bet than VJ and Kon even if I'd still bite the bullet.

My overall issue rn tho is that because of our roster make up, it just feels like difficult decisions need to be made and made sooner than expected. Tre, VJ and Kon all can in a pinch play the 3 but the 2 is probably their best position (maybe even the 1 if some crazy development happens)...which is the case with the only players that matter rn in Maxey and McCain...who also may not fit together (Grimes is whatever; he was cool but it came during a time where the team didn't care and he has multiple years prior of just being a guy so he doesn't matter for decision making purposes rn). Which means for longterm the FO has to make the decision on which 2 of the 3 (or 4 if Grimes is legit I guess) guards fit...it won't matter next year as a rookie probably is best coming off the bench but it is a looming decision and its one I feel like we will be on the SacKings side of instead of the Pacers side yknow? This is why I want Harper because he's bigger than most of the 3 guard targets rn, is a real PG so can play next to Maxey (who I think the FO would choose if it comes to that btw) and guard up due to his heft AND IMO he has real star upside that doesn't require as much squinting the others do (not to say he's perfect). This is also why Ace remains an option despite everything else about him telling me no. We aren't in position to worry about fit but at a certain point there are too many cooks in the kitchen but then again if you pass on the next Ray Allen, Wade or American Luka (these are jokes but not really) because of Maxey and he finally hits his ceiling or McCain's run was flukey or Grimes returns to earth for fit you are also ****.

This pick is way more important than it probably should be lol.

If they plan on paying grimes upwards of 15+M a year, he absolutely factors in to decisions.
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Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#1353 » by Black Mage » Yesterday 11:08 pm

I really like the trade for PHX too. They would be a nice fit for CMB.
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Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#1354 » by Mik317 » Yesterday 11:33 pm

Black Mage wrote:I really like the trade for PHX too. They would be a nice fit for CMB.

they are allegedly going to take Danny Wolf.
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Re: 2024-2025 College Basketball / NBA Draft - Volume III 

Post#1355 » by GoSixersBro » Yesterday 11:36 pm

sodmoraes wrote:Someone knows if nba.com shows the draft for free or i have to pay for espn or league pass to see it? I only have Amazon here in brazil, but i want to see the draft. I think i will probably have to pay league pass for a month, or disney streaming to see it ( or look for a bootleg streaming :lol: )...


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