The curious case of Thybulle

[76ciology]

Thomas is the worst defensive player in the NBA. And his shot selection is terrible.

welcome to 2023. where defense is almost powerless and you need great offense to beat good offense.

[76ciology]

You even can play better defense with a guy like Cam Thomas because it allows you to load up on defense at PF-C. Where as if your go to guy is a PF-C, then you will rely a lot on your wings for defense.

[Decipher]

Thomas is the worst defensive player in the NBA. And his shot selection is terrible.

You need to remember that he's 12 months younger than Tyrese & has only started 3 games

He's also less mature IMO

Maxey came in, knew his role & prospered

Cam tried waaaay too hard to impress & it cost him minutes

I like both of them & it will be fun to see how their careers pan out

[Murray_17]

Dude waited 1 months to recycle this argument after 2 games

Not sure about Maxey being better than Thomas.

Cam Thomas this season when he plays 25+ Minutes:

8 games

Easier to be efficient if you play with guys like Harden and Embiid who’s generates a lot of gravity. And when most of your scoring is transition, attacking close outs, against bench units and spot ups.
Thomas is way more skilled than maxey, who’s more of an opportunistic scorer than a halfcourt/crunch time scorer that is very valuable in today’s nba.

You just listed things Maxey is better at than Thomas, then said that because Thomas is a better halfcourt scorer (?) he's better skilled.

Maxey is a better shooter than Thomas right now, Thomas is 40% on less than 2 attempts. Even yesterday he was inefficient outside 3 points and that's a volume that it looks impossible to sustain for him. Like, can we put at least context in things?

Im not saying Maxey is a bad player. Its just Cam is better and I dont have any issues with having Maxey. Because for this team, i root for the team not for a single player

The way you rehash stuff like this, it doesn't seem like this is true.


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About Thomas, guy looks fine and he has improved his TS which points to be at least being playable. But his 3 point shooting on volume has been bad and without shooting your scoring in the halfcourt is limited, so unless he can score on volume i don't think he can be playable on the league.

Also, for all the criticism about Maxey on defense, that are accurate, Cam is just as bad but he doesn't even put effort into it,

[Bum Adebayo]

Maxey has improved a lot on defense in the last 3 games, now I would say he is an average defender.

[Negrodamus]

Yup. They’re all excellent as 6th man as Poole or Herro role. But I think Thomas can be a starter with the right set-up because he’s a monster halfcourt scorer

Probably, but who is the upside? Beal? Even he had some defensive chops as a prospect. And even if that is realized, is he worth building a team around like the Wizards are currently stuck with?

I won’t deny that his footwork and craft are exceptional as a scorer, but there’s a reason they haven’t sent him onto the floor and unhooked the leash these past two seasons.

Devin Booker, SG version of Kyrie or SG version of Tatum?

With the right structure, you can build around him. And let him be your go to guy on offense.

The reason why he’s on the leash is because he’s playing behind two of the greatest shot creators in the league. He’d probably average 25-30ppg with the Rox or Pistons

Well, Maxey has been able to get substantial minutes as a pure scorer despite being behind Embiid and Harden, so...

Kyrie has a career AST% of 29.9
Booker with 23.6

Jayson Tatum is 6'8 and fairly switchable on defense.

Cam is 6'3, weak defense/switchability, and weak distribution. He's going to need to fix one of those three things to become a regular starter and unfortunately it's not going to be the height.

[76ciology]

Probably, but who is the upside? Beal? Even he had some defensive chops as a prospect. And even if that is realized, is he worth building a team around like the Wizards are currently stuck with?

I won’t deny that his footwork and craft are exceptional as a scorer, but there’s a reason they haven’t sent him onto the floor and unhooked the leash these past two seasons.

Devin Booker, SG version of Kyrie or SG version of Tatum?

With the right structure, you can build around him. And let him be your go to guy on offense.

The reason why he’s on the leash is because he’s playing behind two of the greatest shot creators in the league. He’d probably average 25-30ppg with the Rox or Pistons

Well, Maxey has been able to get substantial minutes as a pure scorer despite being behind Embiid and Harden, so...

Kyrie has a career AST% of 29.9
Booker with 23.6

Jayson Tatum is 6'8 and fairly switchable on defense.

Cam is 6'3, weak defense/switchability, and weak distribution. He's going to need to fix one of those three things to become a regular starter and unfortunately it's not going to be the height.

He’s still young (someone said he’s a year younger than Maxey) while he or his team can cover his deficiency. What’s important is he has the most valuable skillset in today’s NBA. Shot creation with shooting.

[76ciology]

Probably, but who is the upside? Beal? Even he had some defensive chops as a prospect. And even if that is realized, is he worth building a team around like the Wizards are currently stuck with?

I won’t deny that his footwork and craft are exceptional as a scorer, but there’s a reason they haven’t sent him onto the floor and unhooked the leash these past two seasons.

Devin Booker, SG version of Kyrie or SG version of Tatum?

With the right structure, you can build around him. And let him be your go to guy on offense.

The reason why he’s on the leash is because he’s playing behind two of the greatest shot creators in the league. He’d probably average 25-30ppg with the Rox or Pistons

Well, Maxey has been able to get substantial minutes as a pure scorer despite being behind Embiid and Harden, so...

Kyrie has a career AST% of 29.9
Booker with 23.6

Jayson Tatum is 6'8 and fairly switchable on defense.

Cam is 6'3, weak defense/switchability, and weak distribution. He's going to need to fix one of those three things to become a regular starter and unfortunately it's not going to be the height.

Btw, Nets play best defense with Cam Thomas at 109 DRtg and 114 DRTg when he’s not on the floor. Opponents also shot -4 FG% lower than average when he’s defending them.

His ast% increased from 9.7% last year to 13.9% this year

[Negrodamus]

Devin Booker, SG version of Kyrie or SG version of Tatum?

With the right structure, you can build around him. And let him be your go to guy on offense.

The reason why he’s on the leash is because he’s playing behind two of the greatest shot creators in the league. He’d probably average 25-30ppg with the Rox or Pistons

Well, Maxey has been able to get substantial minutes as a pure scorer despite being behind Embiid and Harden, so...

Kyrie has a career AST% of 29.9
Booker with 23.6

Jayson Tatum is 6'8 and fairly switchable on defense.

Cam is 6'3, weak defense/switchability, and weak distribution. He's going to need to fix one of those three things to become a regular starter and unfortunately it's not going to be the height.

Btw, Nets play best defense with Cam Thomas at 109 DRtg and 114 DRTg when he’s not on the floor. Opponents also shot -4 FG% lower than average when he’s defending them.

His ast% increased from 9.7% last year to 13.9% this year

Yea, I'm sure it's because of him:

https://youtu.be/Moc8K38B0ls?t=46 - Kinda hanging out on help D in this possession while his teammate getting dunked on

https://youtu.be/Moc8K38B0ls?t=219 - This one is my favorite. Batum blows by him and then he doesn't even recover to help with the wide open man in the corner

https://youtu.be/Moc8K38B0ls?t=230 - Too easy

https://youtu.be/Moc8K38B0ls?t=380 - I'm trying not to post possessions where he actually acts like a warm body on defense, but just wanted to show that Cam vs someone like Kawhi is like a hot knife through butter, zero resistance. He's too small and can't really contest the shot much.

I get it, he's young. But from the NBA footage I've seen of him, he looks like LSU Cam Thomas on defense: uninterested and zero instinct or effort. Maxey is also bad on defense, but he at least puts a lot of effort on that end.

[76ciology]

Well, Maxey has been able to get substantial minutes as a pure scorer despite being behind Embiid and Harden, so...

Kyrie has a career AST% of 29.9
Booker with 23.6

Jayson Tatum is 6'8 and fairly switchable on defense.

Cam is 6'3, weak defense/switchability, and weak distribution. He's going to need to fix one of those three things to become a regular starter and unfortunately it's not going to be the height.

Btw, Nets play best defense with Cam Thomas at 109 DRtg and 114 DRTg when he’s not on the floor. Opponents also shot -4 FG% lower than average when he’s defending them.

His ast% increased from 9.7% last year to 13.9% this year

Yea, I'm sure it's because of him:

https://youtu.be/Moc8K38B0ls?t=46 - Kinda hanging out on help D in this possession while his teammate getting dunked on

https://youtu.be/Moc8K38B0ls?t=219 - This one is my favorite. Batum blows by him and then he doesn't even recover to help with the wide open man in the corner

https://youtu.be/Moc8K38B0ls?t=230 - Too easy

https://youtu.be/Moc8K38B0ls?t=380 - I'm trying not to post possessions where he actually acts like a warm body on defense, but just wanted to show that Cam vs someone like Kawhi is like a hot knife through butter, zero resistance. He's too small and can't really contest the shot much.

I get it, he's young. But from the NBA footage I've seen of him, he looks like LSU Cam Thomas on defense: uninterested and zero instinct or effort. Maxey is also bad on defense, but he at least puts a lot of effort on that end.

Yeah. But still..

the team plays best defense when he’s on the floor and his man shoots 4% below their average when he’s defending them

And offensively, Maxey is better at opportunistic baskets because of his speed but Cam is so much better on halfcourt shot creations. Specially on crunch time

[Negrodamus]

Btw, Nets play best defense with Cam Thomas at 109 DRtg and 114 DRTg when he’s not on the floor. Opponents also shot -4 FG% lower than average when he’s defending them.

His ast% increased from 9.7% last year to 13.9% this year

Yea, I'm sure it's because of him:

https://youtu.be/Moc8K38B0ls?t=46 - Kinda hanging out on help D in this possession while his teammate getting dunked on

https://youtu.be/Moc8K38B0ls?t=219 - This one is my favorite. Batum blows by him and then he doesn't even recover to help with the wide open man in the corner

https://youtu.be/Moc8K38B0ls?t=230 - Too easy

https://youtu.be/Moc8K38B0ls?t=380 - I'm trying not to post possessions where he actually acts like a warm body on defense, but just wanted to show that Cam vs someone like Kawhi is like a hot knife through butter, zero resistance. He's too small and can't really contest the shot much.

I get it, he's young. But from the NBA footage I've seen of him, he looks like LSU Cam Thomas on defense: uninterested and zero instinct or effort. Maxey is also bad on defense, but he at least puts a lot of effort on that end.

Yeah. But still..

the team plays best defense when he’s on the floor and his man shoots 4% below their average when he’s defending them

Come on, you gotta add context to the stats; that's why statistical analysis gets a bad wrap. Who is he generally playing against when he got in the game prior to this recent increase in minutes? Bench players or even deep bench players in blowout games. How is that any kind of evaluation of a player's defense?

[Murray_17]

Edit: whatever, i was being petty.

[Murray_17]

Also, the majority of consistent Cam lineup minutes came in garbage time, of course, his Drtg and Ortg would be skewed. Again, you need real volume to evaluate some of these things

Stats are valuable if you read them carefully enough to see in which context they are accurate.

[76ciology]

Yea, I'm sure it's because of him:

https://youtu.be/Moc8K38B0ls?t=46 - Kinda hanging out on help D in this possession while his teammate getting dunked on

https://youtu.be/Moc8K38B0ls?t=219 - This one is my favorite. Batum blows by him and then he doesn't even recover to help with the wide open man in the corner

https://youtu.be/Moc8K38B0ls?t=230 - Too easy

https://youtu.be/Moc8K38B0ls?t=380 - I'm trying not to post possessions where he actually acts like a warm body on defense, but just wanted to show that Cam vs someone like Kawhi is like a hot knife through butter, zero resistance. He's too small and can't really contest the shot much.

I get it, he's young. But from the NBA footage I've seen of him, he looks like LSU Cam Thomas on defense: uninterested and zero instinct or effort. Maxey is also bad on defense, but he at least puts a lot of effort on that end.

Yeah. But still..

the team plays best defense when he’s on the floor and his man shoots 4% below their average when he’s defending them

Come on, you gotta add context to the stats; that's why statistical analysis gets a bad wrap. Who is he generally playing against when he got in the game prior to this recent increase in minutes? Bench players or even deep bench players in blowout games. How is that any kind of evaluation of a player's defense?

I dont think he’s that bad on defense.

If you watch the Clips game, they weren’t hunting him on defense and he was playable unlike Maxey.

And I haven’t seen a team defending him that tight since Steph Curry in 2016. Kawhi was not only defending him, but they were defending him FULL COURT, and trying to double team him in halfcourt.

I dont put a lot of value on a guard’s defense. Most of the top guards in the league are negative defenders like Steph, Trae, Fox, Harden, Morant (-3 DRaptor), Kyrie Doncic and Lillard.

And in general, i dont really value defense that much except for the C position and some at the 3&4 positions.

Thats how I see basketball is played right now. And thats where I see why people struggle to evaluate players because they can’t adjust to how the game is played now.

[Mik317]

why are we arguing about Cam in a Thybulle thread anyway lol

[76ciology]

why are we arguing about Cam in a Thybulle thread anyway lol

No one is arguing. Just discussing.

We’re trying to pump up Thybulle’s trade value by faking interest by number posts in his thread.

[Negrodamus]

Yeah. But still..

the team plays best defense when he’s on the floor and his man shoots 4% below their average when he’s defending them

Come on, you gotta add context to the stats; that's why statistical analysis gets a bad wrap. Who is he generally playing against when he got in the game prior to this recent increase in minutes? Bench players or even deep bench players in blowout games. How is that any kind of evaluation of a player's defense?

I dont think he’s that bad on defense.

If you watch the Clips game, they weren’t hunting him on defense and he was playable unlike Maxey.

And I haven’t seen a team defending him that tight since Steph Curry in 2016. Kawhi was not only defending him, but they were defending him FULL COURT, and trying to double team him in halfcourt.

I dont put a lot of value on a guard’s defense. Most of the top guards in the league are negative defenders like Steph, Trae, Fox, Harden, Morant (-3 DRaptor), Kyrie Doncic and Lillard.

And in general, i dont really value defense that much except for the C position and some at the 3&4 positions.

Thats how I see basketball is played right now. And thats where I see why people struggle to evaluate players because they can’t adjust to how the game is played now.

Watching the game right now. I'll let you know how his defense is against his mentor, Devin Booker.

[Jailblazers7]

It’s funnier to me that future lead guard Cam Thomas has improved to a whopping 14% assist rate. That makes him playmaking peers with Royce O’Neal lol

[Negrodamus]

Yea, Cam Thomas is a much better scorer than Maxey, but he's definitely worse at everything else. Unreal scorer though. Like, can't be stopped unless the team is game planning for him.

Maxey is an off ball scorer through and through while Cam is full-time ISO. Jamal Crawford is doing NBA on TNT tonight and he's actually an excellent comparison for Cam too.

[Kobblehead]

It’s funnier to me that future lead guard Cam Thomas has improved to a whopping 14% assist rate. That makes him playmaking peers with Royce O’Neal lol

That's an upward trajectory, though. In another year, he could be north of 20%, which would put him in legit combo guard territory.