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Negrodamus wrote:I'm actually expecting Frank Ntilikina to push many of these guards in the months approaching the draft. He has shown that he can use his length defensively, is a massive guard, and has shown an improving three point shot.
Kobblehead wrote:@Slizeezyc, I'm saying very specifically that Fultz has not played well enough to pass any of these other Gs.
Three years ago, Marcus Smart was clearly the best guard prospect in the draft.
Two years ago, D'Angelo Russell was clearly the best guard prospect in the draft.
Last year, Kris Dunn was clearly the best guard prospect in the draft.
From an age-to-excellence and performance perspective, how can anyone say Markelle Fultz has been better than (let alone well ahead of the pack of) Lonzo Ball, Malik Monk or De'Aaron Fox? From a skillset perspective, how can anyone say Markelle Fultz is clearly ahead of Dennis Smith Jr.?
To me, Markelle Fultz is very much within the pack and not pulling ahead of any of these guys. And in terms of projecting skillsets, Dennis Smith ticks every box Fultz does with even better physical ability and grit.
Kobblehead wrote:Negrodamus wrote:I'm actually expecting Frank Ntilikina to push many of these guards in the months approaching the draft. He has shown that he can use his length defensively, is a massive guard, and has shown an improving three point shot.
Are we positive he's a PG? His distributing metrics seem pretty low volume for a lead guard.
cksdayoff wrote:Jackson needs to get rid of that hitch.
cksdayoff wrote:Jackson needs to get rid of that hitch.
Kobblehead wrote:You're right in that Fultz and Smith are the most modern archetypal G talents in this draft.
I don't think that matters in the grand scheme of things if Ball and Monk continue to outplay them.
Ball's IQ, vision, unselfishness, shooting proficiency and physical tools make him special.
Monk's age-to-dominance as a scorer is pretty unprecedented in the recent era. When's the last time we had a freshman like him? His offensive game as a true freshman is at the same level Buddy Hield's was during his PotY senior season.
Ericb5 wrote:I'm not sure why Ball seems to be treated with a bunch of skepticism by many people. He should be recognized as elite.
Two things that make people underestimate him I think are his ridiculous shooting form that just seems like it shouldn't work, and that he has been SO damn good that it seems too good to be true.
I mean he had high school stats that were so good that people assumed that they over estimated his talent, and thought that he couldn't continue with that production as he moves up to the next level. The stats are down in college, but still show the same elite skills.
I think that if people just judge him fairly with their eyes that he is clearly a special talent.
He is in the same ballpark as Simmons when it comes to passing and vision, and you can never have enough of that on the floor.
On top of that, he competes, and is a terrific spot up shooter. He is definitely capable of playing off the ball, and he can defend both back court spots.
I think that he is an excellent fit with our team.
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Kobblehead wrote:cksdayoff wrote:Kobblehead wrote:I didn't say he was an elite slasher. I said he was an elite finisher. Someone finishing well over 70% at the rim is an elite finisher. There's no arguing that fact.
you're right, my mistake. and his % definitely backs your point, but when i think of an elite finisher, i picture someone making layup attempts with defenders underneath the basket. Maybe Lonzo Ball has it in him to do it, I just haven't seen it yet.
I don't think Ball will ever adopt a slasher/finisher playing style, but he will use his vertical explosiveness to finish a high percentage of his attempts on the break and of course on cuts to the basket off Simmons feeds.
Among the slashing PGs in this year's draft (Smith, Fultz and Fox), I think Markelle will have the most trouble continuing that at the next level. For one thing, he's nowhere near as twitchy and explosive as Smith and nowhere near as quick and agile as Fox. We consistently see him getting stymied at the arc and struggling to blow by guys. His teammates suck, but there are still physical shortcomings we can't just brush off.
cksdayoff wrote:Kobblehead wrote:I didn't say he was an elite slasher. I said he was an elite finisher. Someone finishing well over 70% at the rim is an elite finisher. There's no arguing that fact.
you're right, my mistake. and his % definitely backs your point, but when i think of an elite finisher, i picture someone making layup attempts with defenders underneath the basket. Maybe Lonzo Ball has it in him to do it, I just haven't seen it yet.
phiphan wrote:cksdayoff wrote:Kobblehead wrote:I didn't say he was an elite slasher. I said he was an elite finisher. Someone finishing well over 70% at the rim is an elite finisher. There's no arguing that fact.
you're right, my mistake. and his % definitely backs your point, but when i think of an elite finisher, i picture someone making layup attempts with defenders underneath the basket. Maybe Lonzo Ball has it in him to do it, I just haven't seen it yet.
Kobble, you said he could use his elite finishing off the pick and roll. That's a slashing situation. You want to walk back your original statement that's cool, but we're in the no spin zone here baby.
Slizeezyc wrote:Kobblehead wrote:@Slizeezyc, I'm saying very specifically that Fultz has not played well enough to pass any of these other Gs.
Three years ago, Marcus Smart was clearly the best guard prospect in the draft.
Two years ago, D'Angelo Russell was clearly the best guard prospect in the draft.
Last year, Kris Dunn was clearly the best guard prospect in the draft.
From an age-to-excellence and performance perspective, how can anyone say Markelle Fultz has been better than (let alone well ahead of the pack of) Lonzo Ball, Malik Monk or De'Aaron Fox? From a skillset perspective, how can anyone say Markelle Fultz is clearly ahead of Dennis Smith Jr.?
To me, Markelle Fultz is very much within the pack and not pulling ahead of any of these guys. And in terms of projecting skillsets, Dennis Smith ticks every box Fultz does with even better physical ability and grit.
I mean Fultz is the youngest of them, and what he's done from a statistical level as a whole is better than any of them. He's scoring 20+ a game while having 5 assists, 5 boards, shooting above 40% from deep and 50% from two on a high usage. Nobody else has that, Freshman or otherwise. Take it for what it is and pick it apart if you want, but it is a thing.
You can say Ball maybe has the most elite skill at one thing, Smith has best athleticism etc., but it's a bit unfair to say Fultz isn't doing "anything" to separate himself.
Also, as for those other drafts, I mean:
Fultz>Smart/Dunn/Russell. And to be original point, Ball/Smith>Smart/Russell/Dunn
And beyond that,
Exum was the only competition for Smart. Mudiay was the only one around Russell. And Murray/Hield were the only ones around Dunn. None of those "secondary" guys equate to a Ball/Smith in terms of competition. Which is sort of my point in saying, this is just a really good guard class, and it makes it hard to separate further.