Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll

[Unbreakable99]

I heard before the season that Simmons has a Kobe-like work ethic. I can't remember if it was a poster who said it or an article I read or if it was just a poster saying he read it in an article but I remember reading that. I hope it's true.

[Sixercise]

After mulling long and hard....I'm on board with team Simmons.

shoot, if Ingram was the pick, i wouldn't mind that either. He had a phenomenal shooting year at duke. His length can definitely translate in the NBA for deflections and cover D. My main issues with him are his strength and speed. I had similar concerns early on with Noel, but he is hella fast for a big man, which just about makes up for his lack of strength. Given that ingram is only 18 I have no doubt that he has plenty of room to grow, but realistically I can't see how he will gain the weight needed or become faster. I mean, he already is on a 5000 calorie diet and still can barely tip the scales at 200. And the way he runs reminds me of an antelope - rangy but not very quick. Also, with the comparisons we've been making to Durant, i've went back to watching some clips from his rookie year - and the one major difference between him and Ingram is that Durant is more explosive in his movement and gets into his shooting form quicker. Ingram has plenty of time to prove me wrong, but I just don't see the explosiveness or quickness I expect from a budding (super)star.

On the other hand, Simmons seems to be a decent jumper away from being virtually unstoppable IMO. The clips i've seen of him doing shooting drills showed that he tends to land right. His form is otherwise pretty good. Even though it's true that the best teams usually have a few elite shooters, the other most important aspect in today's NBA that is needed is the ability to get in the lane at will with speed. We've all seen this from a former no. 1 pick from philly. Lebron is another prime example. For those who think Simmons' iso game isn't elite, name me a list a players at 6'10" or taller (other than durant or noel) who possess the size, speed, and agility to stop/slow down a player of Simmons' caliber.

[76ciology]

I heard before the season that Simmons has a Kobe-like work ethic. I can't remember if it was a poster who said it or an article I read or if it was just a poster saying he read it in an article but I remember reading that. I hope it's true.

It was from a writer in LA. But it's not work ethic. More of the aura of Simmons.

[76ciology]

On the other hand, Simmons seems to be a decent jumper away from being virtually unstoppable IMO. The clips i've seen of him doing shooting drills showed that he tends to land right. His form is otherwise pretty good. Even though it's true that the best teams usually have a few elite shooters, the other most important aspect in today's NBA that is needed is the ability to get in the lane at will with speed. We've all seen this from a former no. 1 pick from philly. Lebron is another prime example. For those who think Simmons' iso game isn't elite, name me a list a players at 6'10" or taller (other than durant or noel) who possess the size, speed, and agility to stop/slow down a player of Simmons' caliber.

Giannis, Wiggins and Jabari I think have around same standing reach with Simmons. You can slow him down by sagging off him and let him take you at the post or force him to take jumper.

But I agree, just like thorpe said.. How special simmons will be will depend on his jumper.

[Kobblehead]

If the physicality disparagement against NBA defenders prevents Ingram from consistently knocking down anything other than wide open jumpshots, what else does he bring to the table?

- His lack of strength could disrupt him from consistently hitting contested mid-range shots.
- His lack of quickness, fluid handle, strength, ability to finish, and ability to hit free throws (68% from a shooter is pathetic) probably will prevent him from being an effective slasher.
- He has no aptitude for facilitation or creating for others.
- Other than using his length to get on-ball blocks, he doesn't really defend anything.

Team Ingram is putting all their eggs in the "he's a great shooter with elite length" basket. You can't afford to ignore his mediocre freshman year and not account for the weaknesses in his game. This is the #1 pick we're talking about and a truly great prospect is on the board (Ben Simmons).

[Sixercise]

Giannis, Wiggins and Jabari I think have around same standing reach with Simmons. You can slow him down by sagging off him and let him take you at the post or force him to take jumper.

But I agree, just like thorpe said.. How special simmons will be will depend on his jumper.

Almost forgot about Giannis - he is another similar player, simmons is quite a big bigger tho.


Dont make me laugh in regards to wiggins and parker - wiggins is too small, and parker isn't a good defender.


So far, that makes only 3 players in the entire NBA of similar physique to Simmons who can match him defensively.

[PhilasFinest]

If the physicality disparagement against NBA defenders prevents Ingram from consistently knocking down anything other than wide open jumpshots, what else does he bring to the table?

- His lack of strength could disrupt him from consistently hitting contested mid-range shots.
- His lack of quickness, fluid handle, strength, ability to finish, and ability to hit free throws (68% from a shooter is pathetic) probably will prevent him from being an effective slasher.
- He has no aptitude for facilitation or creating for others.
- Other than using his length to get on-ball blocks, he doesn't really defend anything.

Team Ingram is putting all their eggs in the "he's a great shooter with elite length" basket. You can't afford to ignore his mediocre freshman year and not account for the weaknesses in his game. This is the #1 pick we're talking about and a truly great prospect is on the board (Ben Simmons).

Holy ****, he only shot 68% from the line?

How did I not catch that.

[Cru Thik]

So what's everyone's thoughts on Glenn Guilbeau trashing Simmons on BOB? Does this guy have any credibility?

[Negrodamus]

So what's everyone's thoughts on Glenn Guilbeau trashing Simmons on BOB? Does this guy have any credibility?

http://www.csnphilly.com/video/lsu-beat-writer-glenn-guilbeau-isnt-sold-ben-simmons

I mean, I don't think it was completely unfair what he said. He didn't drag Simmons through the mud. He just thinks he's more a complimentary player than the star.

[Kobblehead]

Holy ****, he only shot 68% from the line?

How did I not catch that.

Because it's not advertised by people trying to hail him as an alpha scorer with Kevin Durant potential.

Brandon Ingram: 58.8% at the rim, 37.6% on mid-range jumpshots, 41% from three, 68.2% from the line
Ben Simmons: 75.2% at the rim, 32.9% on mid-range jumpshots, n/a from three, 67% from the line

Simmons is elite at the rim and Ingram is elite from beyond the arc. The rest is pretty close. For being a non-shooter, Simmons only has a 4% disparity on mid-range jumpshots from a guy being praised for his shooting. Go figure.

[PhilasFinest]

So what's everyone's thoughts on Glenn Guilbeau trashing Simmons on BOB? Does this guy have any credibility?

Hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but this is equivalent to taking the word of Pompey or Cooney on a prospect. He's a damn beat writer for god's sake.

Then to top it off, he really lost all credibility when he said he'd take Buddy Giel at #1.

[76ciology]

If the physicality disparagement against NBA defenders prevents Ingram from consistently knocking down anything other than wide open jumpshots, what else does he bring to the table?

- His lack of strength could disrupt him from consistently hitting contested mid-range shots.
- His lack of quickness, fluid handle, strength, ability to finish, and ability to hit free throws (68% from a shooter is pathetic) probably will prevent him from being an effective slasher.
- He has no aptitude for facilitation or creating for others.
- Other than using his length to get on-ball blocks, he doesn't really defend anything.

Team Ingram is putting all their eggs in the "he's a great shooter with elite length" basket. You can't afford to ignore his mediocre freshman year and not account for the weaknesses in his game. This is the #1 pick we're talking about and a truly great prospect is on the board (Ben Simmons).

Kobble,

I hope you don't get offended, but almost all scouting reports i've read says Ingram is a willing and capable passer and has really good ball handling skills for his size. He also did a lot of ISO&PnR which has good Points per possesion numbers.

I do admit Ingram lacks strength and Ingram's freshman stats is lackluster for a number 1 pick.

But i think it's easier for Ingram to add strength than Simmons to be a really good 3pt shooter like Ingram. I also think Ingram had a hard time adjusting with the physicality and the more structured college game and it showed with his horrible 1st month where he had around 5 games of below 40FG%.

If you remove his first month, he'd average around 45FG%, 71FT% (shot 77-78% in HS) and 42.5 3pt%, with good Iso/pnr numbers. He is also said to gain 20lbs, and shows no sign of his strength issue being a red flag than a work in progress.

Ingram is a year younger than Simmons. Give him a year to prepare like Simmons and I do think he would have been much stronger and had a better offensive game. And at the same age with Simmons currently, I do think he would have better numbers.

Moving forward, in the NBA, it is filled with long athletic defenders. It's rare to see a player being able to dominate in the paint. I do think Ingram's shooting is most likely to translate than Simmons' dominance in the paint. FWIW, some or many of Simmons' best games dominated against weak defense in LSU.

In the NBA having a perimeter shot will allow you to penetrate despite not being explosive. When the defender stay close with Ingram, Ingram has long strides that it will just take him two dribbles to get inside the paint. We are not talking aboit Ryan Anderson or Channing Frye level ball handling, Ingram has shown ability to score off guard duties like Iso, PnR and transition(composed 30% of his offense as per DX).

While on the defensive end, maybe we differ in opinion, but rim protection has the highest value on defense. Defense in the NBA is about rotating + rim protection/close outs. Ingram is mobile enough to rotate into the perimeter and protect the rim like a center with his 9'2" standing reach + athleticism. Ingram has always been known as a very good shotblocker for his position. Averaged around 3bpg in HS and 1.++bpg in NCAA.

Tough to compare Ingram with KAT. But how about Porzingis? Ingram is like a SF version of Porzingis. Good impact on defense because of rim protection. Good impact on offense because he can space out the floor. Ability to shoot, allows both players to drive. Ingram is just a better ball handler and mobile version of KP, while strength is not that big of an issue at wing position compared to C.

[Ericb5]

So what's everyone's thoughts on Glenn Guilbeau trashing Simmons on BOB? Does this guy have any credibility?

Hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but this is equivalent to taking the word of Pompey or Cooney on a prospect. He's a damn beat writer for god's sake.

Then to top it off, he really lost all credibility when he said he'd take Buddy Giel at #1.

I assume that is supposed to mean Buddy Hield?

I thought the way that you wrote it was a typo, but he actually said that. Lol






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[Ericb5]

If the physicality disparagement against NBA defenders prevents Ingram from consistently knocking down anything other than wide open jumpshots, what else does he bring to the table?

- His lack of strength could disrupt him from consistently hitting contested mid-range shots.
- His lack of quickness, fluid handle, strength, ability to finish, and ability to hit free throws (68% from a shooter is pathetic) probably will prevent him from being an effective slasher.
- He has no aptitude for facilitation or creating for others.
- Other than using his length to get on-ball blocks, he doesn't really defend anything.

Team Ingram is putting all their eggs in the "he's a great shooter with elite length" basket. You can't afford to ignore his mediocre freshman year and not account for the weaknesses in his game. This is the #1 pick we're talking about and a truly great prospect is on the board (Ben Simmons).

Kobble,

I hope you don't get offended, but almost all scouting reports i've read says Ingram is a willing and capable passer and has really good ball handling skills for his size. He also did a lot of ISO&PnR which has good Points per possesion numbers.

I do admit Ingram lacks strength and Ingram's freshman stats is lackluster for a number 1 pick.

But i think it's easier for Ingram to add strength than Simmons to be a really good 3pt shooter like Ingram. I also think Ingram had a hard time adjusting with the physicality and the more structured college game and it showed with his horrible 1st month where he had around 5 games of below 40FG%.

If you remove his first month, he'd average around 45FG%, 71FT% (shot 77-78% in HS) and 42.5 3pt%, with good Iso/pnr numbers. He is also said to gain 20lbs, and shows no sign of his strength issue being a red flag than a work in progress.

Ingram is a year younger than Simmons. Give him a year to prepare like Simmons and I do think he would have been much stronger and had a better offensive game. And at the same age with Simmons currently, I do think he would have better numbers.

Moving forward, in the NBA, it is filled with long athletic defenders. It's rare to see a player being able to dominate in the paint. I do think Ingram's shooting is most likely to translate than Simmons' dominance in the paint. FWIW, some or many of Simmons' best games dominated against weak defense in LSU.

In the NBA having a perimeter shot will allow you to penetrate despite not being explosive. When the defender stay close with Ingram, Ingram has long strides that it will just take him two dribbles to get inside the paint. We are not taking Ryan Anderson or Channing Frye ball handling, Ingram has shown ability to score off guard duties like Iso, PnR and transition(composed 30% of his offense as per DX).

While on the defensive end, maybe we differ in opinion, but rim protection has the highest value on defense. Defense in the NBA is about rotating + rim protection/close outs. Ingram is mobile enough to rotate into the perimeter and protect the rim like a center with his 9'2" standing reach + athleticism.

Tough to compare Ingram with KAT. But how about Porzingis? Ingram is like a SF version of Porzingis. Good impact on defense because of rim protection. Good impact on offense because he can space out the floor. Ability to shoot, allows both players to drive. Ingram is just a better ball handler and mobile version of KP, while strength is not that big of an issue at wing position compared to C.

I just want to address the one point about passing. You can be a willing and able passer, without being a facilitator. Simmons creates opportunities for other players, and that is very different than just being a good passer.


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[Negrodamus]

If the physicality disparagement against NBA defenders prevents Ingram from consistently knocking down anything other than wide open jumpshots, what else does he bring to the table?

- His lack of strength could disrupt him from consistently hitting contested mid-range shots.
- His lack of quickness, fluid handle, strength, ability to finish, and ability to hit free throws (68% from a shooter is pathetic) probably will prevent him from being an effective slasher.
- He has no aptitude for facilitation or creating for others.
- Other than using his length to get on-ball blocks, he doesn't really defend anything.

Team Ingram is putting all their eggs in the "he's a great shooter with elite length" basket. You can't afford to ignore his mediocre freshman year and not account for the weaknesses in his game. This is the #1 pick we're talking about and a truly great prospect is on the board (Ben Simmons).

Kobble,

I hope you don't get offended, but almost all scouting reports i've read says Ingram is a willing and capable passer and has really good ball handling skills for his size. He also did a lot of ISO&PnR which has good Points per possesion numbers.

I do admit Ingram lacks strength and Ingram's freshman stats is lackluster for a number 1 pick.

But i think it's easier for Ingram to add strength than Simmons to be a really good 3pt shooter like Ingram. I also think Ingram had a hard time adjusting with the physicality and the more structured college game and it showed with his horrible 1st month where he had around 5 games of below 40FG%.

If you remove his first month, he'd average around 45FG%, 71FT% (shot 77-78% in HS) and 42.5 3pt%, with good Iso/pnr numbers. He is also said to gain 20lbs, and shows no sign of his strength issue being a red flag than a work in progress.

Ingram is a year younger than Simmons. Give him a year to prepare like Simmons and I do think he would have been much stronger and had a better offensive game. And at the same age with Simmons currently, I do think he would have better numbers.

Moving forward, in the NBA, it is filled with long athletic defenders. It's rare to see a player being able to dominate in the paint. I do think Ingram's shooting is most likely to translate than Simmons' dominance in the paint. FWIW, some or many of Simmons' best games dominated against weak defense in LSU.

In the NBA having a perimeter shot will allow you to penetrate despite not being explosive. When the defender stay close with Ingram, Ingram has long strides that it will just take him two dribbles to get inside the paint. We are not taking Ryan Anderson or Channing Frye ball handling, Ingram has shown ability to score off guard duties like Iso, PnR and transition(composed 30% of his offense as per DX).

While on the defensive end, maybe we differ in opinion, but rim protection has the highest value on defense. Defense in the NBA is about rotating + rim protection/close outs. Ingram is mobile enough to rotate into the perimeter and protect the rim like a center with his 9'2" standing reach + athleticism.

Tough to compare Ingram with KAT. But how about Porzingis? Ingram is like a SF version of Porzingis. Good impact on defense because of rim protection. Good impact on offense because he can space out the floor. Ability to shoot, allows both players to drive. Ingram is just a better ball handler and mobile version of KP, while strength is not that big of an issue at wing position compared to C.

I just want to address the one point about passing. You can be a willing and able passer, without being a facilitator. Simmons creates opportunities for other players, and that is very different than just being a good passer.


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Definitely true, but Ingram isn't being advertised as a passer. I think his passing is underrated though.

[76ciology]

If the physicality disparagement against NBA defenders prevents Ingram from consistently knocking down anything other than wide open jumpshots, what else does he bring to the table?

- His lack of strength could disrupt him from consistently hitting contested mid-range shots.
- His lack of quickness, fluid handle, strength, ability to finish, and ability to hit free throws (68% from a shooter is pathetic) probably will prevent him from being an effective slasher.
- He has no aptitude for facilitation or creating for others.
- Other than using his length to get on-ball blocks, he doesn't really defend anything.

Team Ingram is putting all their eggs in the "he's a great shooter with elite length" basket. You can't afford to ignore his mediocre freshman year and not account for the weaknesses in his game. This is the #1 pick we're talking about and a truly great prospect is on the board (Ben Simmons).

Kobble,

I hope you don't get offended, but almost all scouting reports i've read says Ingram is a willing and capable passer and has really good ball handling skills for his size. He also did a lot of ISO&PnR which has good Points per possesion numbers.

I do admit Ingram lacks strength and Ingram's freshman stats is lackluster for a number 1 pick.

But i think it's easier for Ingram to add strength than Simmons to be a really good 3pt shooter like Ingram. I also think Ingram had a hard time adjusting with the physicality and the more structured college game and it showed with his horrible 1st month where he had around 5 games of below 40FG%.

If you remove his first month, he'd average around 45FG%, 71FT% (shot 77-78% in HS) and 42.5 3pt%, with good Iso/pnr numbers. He is also said to gain 20lbs, and shows no sign of his strength issue being a red flag than a work in progress.

Ingram is a year younger than Simmons. Give him a year to prepare like Simmons and I do think he would have been much stronger and had a better offensive game. And at the same age with Simmons currently, I do think he would have better numbers.

Moving forward, in the NBA, it is filled with long athletic defenders. It's rare to see a player being able to dominate in the paint. I do think Ingram's shooting is most likely to translate than Simmons' dominance in the paint. FWIW, some or many of Simmons' best games dominated against weak defense in LSU.

In the NBA having a perimeter shot will allow you to penetrate despite not being explosive. When the defender stay close with Ingram, Ingram has long strides that it will just take him two dribbles to get inside the paint. We are not taking Ryan Anderson or Channing Frye ball handling, Ingram has shown ability to score off guard duties like Iso, PnR and transition(composed 30% of his offense as per DX).

While on the defensive end, maybe we differ in opinion, but rim protection has the highest value on defense. Defense in the NBA is about rotating + rim protection/close outs. Ingram is mobile enough to rotate into the perimeter and protect the rim like a center with his 9'2" standing reach + athleticism.

Tough to compare Ingram with KAT. But how about Porzingis? Ingram is like a SF version of Porzingis. Good impact on defense because of rim protection. Good impact on offense because he can space out the floor. Ability to shoot, allows both players to drive. Ingram is just a better ball handler and mobile version of KP, while strength is not that big of an issue at wing position compared to C.

I just want to address the one point about passing. You can be a willing and able passer, without being a facilitator. Simmons creates opportunities for other players, and that is very different than just being a good passer.


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Khris Middleton and Giannis has around the same assists per game numbers. Rondo at 11apg and shoots 36% from 3, is outside of top 40 in ORPM.

Ability to shoot allows you to drive and draw. Just like how Spurs/Hawks bigs are able to do it.

If you draw, you can kickout to open teammates.
If you can shoot, you help your teammates have better spacing to score in the paint.

[Sundown]

Holy ****, he only shot 68% from the line?

How did I not catch that.

Because it's not advertised by people trying to hail him as an alpha scorer with Kevin Durant potential.

Brandon Ingram: 58.8% at the rim, 37.6% on mid-range jumpshots, 41% from three, 68.2% from the line
Ben Simmons: 75.2% at the rim, 32.9% on mid-range jumpshots, n/a from three, 67% from the line

Simmons is elite at the rim and Ingram is elite from beyond the arc. The rest is pretty close. For being a non-shooter, Simmons only has a 4% disparity on mid-range jumpshots from a guy being praised for his shooting. Go figure.

The mid-range stats for Ingram worry me if you're trying to make a Kevin Durant comparison. Durant is a flat out shooter from everywhere. Right now we're hanging our hat on Ingram's shooting from deep. And that's definitely important, but let's not forget that Sauce shot 44% from 3 in nearly twice the number of college attempts as Ingram...

[76ciology]

Ingram shot 58% in the paint.

Jabari also shot 62% in the paint, Jabari is now shooting 65-67% in the paint at NBA.

Ingram has the length of a center and the athleticism of a wing to eventually score better in the paint with added strength.

[Kobblehead]

Brandon Ingram barely had a double-digit assist percentage. Any scouting report that alludes to him being a facilitator or a creator for others isn't worth the time to read. He's a shooting scorer, not a distributor in the slightest.

The term "rim-protector" is being mis-used here. A rim protector is the last line of the defense that alters/blocks shots in the paint and deters drivers from even attacking the rim. Bringing up rim protection when talking about a perimeter player is mis-applying the term.

[Kobblehead]

The mid-range stats for Ingram worry me if you're trying to make a Kevin Durant comparison. Durant is a flat out shooter from everywhere. Right now we're hanging our hat on Ingram's shooting from deep. And that's definitely important, but let's not forget that Sauce shot 44% from 3 in nearly twice the number of college attempts as Ingram...

The comp is just irresponsible.

Durant had bounce and shake in his movement, a tight crisp handle, was a 50% from the field--40% from three--80% from the line shooter, and was one of the best college scorers we've seen in a long time.

The only thing Ingram has in comparison is a 40% three point stroke.