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Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll

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Simmons or Ingram

Simmons
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56%
Ingram
106
44%
 
Total votes: 243

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Re: Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll 

Post#1501 » by Sundown » Thu May 26, 2016 5:57 pm

Kobblehead wrote:
Sundown wrote:The mid-range stats for Ingram worry me if you're trying to make a Kevin Durant comparison. Durant is a flat out shooter from everywhere. Right now we're hanging our hat on Ingram's shooting from deep. And that's definitely important, but let's not forget that Sauce shot 44% from 3 in nearly twice the number of college attempts as Ingram...


The comp is just irresponsible.

Durant had bounce and shake in his movement, a tight crisp handle, was a 50% from the field--40% from three--80% from the line shooter, and was one of the best college scorers we've seen in a long time.

The only thing Ingram has in comparison is a 40% three point stroke.


Agreed. I honestly think people just like making the comparison because they're both long and skinny.
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Re: Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll 

Post#1502 » by Kobblehead » Thu May 26, 2016 5:58 pm

Pretty much. It makes sense to throw broad comps onto highschool prospects. But once they show us a full freshman season at the next level, it's time to get realistic.
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Re: Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll 

Post#1503 » by 76ciology » Thu May 26, 2016 6:00 pm

Kobblehead wrote:.

The term "rim-protector" is being mis-used here. A rim protector is the last line of the defense that alters/blocks shots in the paint and deters drivers from even attacking the rim. Bringing up rim protection when talking about a perimeter player is mis-applying the term.


How about Ingram being a better player in contesting shots in the paint?

Wing blocker?
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Re: Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll 

Post#1504 » by Kobblehead » Thu May 26, 2016 6:34 pm

Negrodamus wrote:Definitely true, but Ingram isn't being advertised as a passer. I think his passing is underrated though.


You said the same thing about Jamal Murray and I just don't get that line of thought. They're non-distributors. What about their passing could possibly be underrated? It's something they don't have an aptitude for doing.

"Underrated passer" should be applied to guys like Malcolm Brogdon and Ron Baker. The passing ability of Jamal Murray and Brandon Ingram is properly rated as unexceptional.
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Re: Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll 

Post#1505 » by 76ciology » Thu May 26, 2016 6:48 pm

2. Simmons' box scores have grown increasingly hollow. One NBA executive described him as a “taller Rajon Rondo, a more athletic Evan Turner, or a skinnier Royce White.” Simmons has displayed a penchant for stat-mongering like few players in recent memory, seeming to pad his numbers in blowouts. At times, it appears he only passes when guaranteed an assist and chases home-run plays at inopportune times in search of a highlight. Simmons seems to value those things over winning.

Simmons' porous defense is masked by his gaudy steal and block numbers. But when watching him closely, it's clear that no opposing player or coach fears attacking him. As Simmons rarely makes the effort to close out on shooters, put a body on opposing big men, or offer much beyond gambling wildly swiping for steals, his lack of intensity is amplified. He has wonderful anticipation skills as a rebounder and will wow you with his instincts in passing lanes. But overall, Simmons hasn't shown the length, toughness and inclination to emerge as an asset on the defensive end.

Simmons' short wingspan (measured 6-foot-11 at the Nike Hoop Summit in April and the Nike Skills Academy in June) won't help him play power forward on an NBA lottery team. To make up for his lack of length, he'll have to display a much higher activity level than what he's shown in college.

3. The report on defending Simmons in the half-court is well known and was utilized effectively in recent weeks. Teams put smaller players on Simmons, backing off him and daring him to shoot. Simmons seems to have zero confidence in his outside shot and becomes passive when guarded this way.

For his size (6-10), Simmons is a gifted ball-handler. He has an incredible ability to change speeds, get to the rim and finish in transition. In the half-court, things haven't been quite as easy against better teams, particularly late in games.


Jonathan Givony on Simmons' defense and questions of his stats and effectivess on offense going forward (now that he's scouted).
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Re: Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll 

Post#1506 » by Negrodamus » Thu May 26, 2016 7:14 pm

Kobblehead wrote:
Negrodamus wrote:Definitely true, but Ingram isn't being advertised as a passer. I think his passing is underrated though.


You said the same thing about Jamal Murray and I just don't get that line of thought. They're non-distributors. What about their passing could possibly be underrated? It's something they don't have an aptitude for doing.

"Underrated passer" should be applied to guys like Malcolm Brogdon and Ron Baker. The passing ability of Jamal Murray and Brandon Ingram is properly rated as unexceptional.


It would be like saying KAT and Anthony Davis can't shoot coming out of college. I knew that they could because I saw enough of them in HS, but Cal didn't ask them to be jump shooters because of their ability around the rim.

We had the best college PG in the country in Ulis, so Murray wasn't asked to be the lead guard as much and was more of a shooter off screens. Before UK, he was a point guard.

Don't take my word for it. Look up DX's strength on him. It's underrated because there was an absence of passes due to his role in the offense.
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Re: Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll 

Post#1507 » by Kobblehead » Thu May 26, 2016 7:24 pm

Negrodamus wrote:It would be like saying KAT and Anthony Davis can't shoot coming out of college. I knew that they could because I saw enough of them in HS, but Cal didn't ask them to be jump shooters because of their ability around the rim.

We had the best college PG in the country in Ulis, so Murray wasn't asked to be the lead guard as much and was more of a shooter off screens. Before UK, he was a point guard.

Don't take my word for it. Look up DX's strength on him. It's underrated because there was an absence of passes due to his role in the offense.

No it wouldn't. That statement would just be considered a blatant misconception and awful evaluation. Anthony Davis shot 38.5% on mid-range jumpers and Karl Towns shot a whopping 43.1% on mid-range jumpers. And both were 70% and 80% free throw shooters, respectively.
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Re: Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll 

Post#1508 » by Negrodamus » Thu May 26, 2016 7:30 pm

Kobblehead wrote:
Negrodamus wrote:It would be like saying KAT and Anthony Davis can't shoot coming out of college. I knew that they could because I saw enough of them in HS, but Cal didn't ask them to be jump shooters because of their ability around the rim.

We had the best college PG in the country in Ulis, so Murray wasn't asked to be the lead guard as much and was more of a shooter off screens. Before UK, he was a point guard.

Don't take my word for it. Look up DX's strength on him. It's underrated because there was an absence of passes due to his role in the offense.

No it wouldn't. That statement would just be considered a blatant misconception and awful evaluation. Anthony Davis shot 38.5% on mid-range jumpers and Karl Towns shot a whopping 43.1% on mid-range jumpers. And both were 70% and 80% free throw shooters, respectively.


What's you're point here? Anthony Davis was 3 for 20 from 3 also. KAT was 2 for 8 in his time. I can imagine either took a whole lot of mid range shots based on my recollection of seeing them play.

Either way, this is diverting from the point that they, much like Jamal Murray, were used in a role much different then what they are in the NBA.
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Re: Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll 

Post#1509 » by Kobblehead » Thu May 26, 2016 7:47 pm

Negrodamus wrote:What's you're point here? Anthony Davis was 3 for 20 from 3 also. KAT was 2 for 8 in his time. I can imagine either took a whole lot of mid range shots based on my recollection of seeing them play.

Either way, this is diverting from the point that they, much like Jamal Murray, were used in a role much different then what they are in the NBA.


The idea that Cal's use of Towns or Davis masked their ability to shoot is a myth. Anyone that payed attention could see the immense offensive ability and skill level of those players. Who cares about three point shooting when both players were drilling mid-range jumpers and displaying proficiency at the free throw line? Their ability to shoot was EASILY distinguishable. If you couldn't see that, you never properly evaluated them in the first place.

If Murray or Ingram had distributing instincts, it would have been evident. Just like the shooting ability and offensive skill level of Karl Towns and Anthony Davis.
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Re: Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll 

Post#1510 » by PhilasFinest » Thu May 26, 2016 7:57 pm

Brandon Ingram 2016 NBA PreDraft Workout Video and Interview
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Brandon-Ingram-2016-NBA-Pre-Draft-Workout-Video-and-Interview-5516/

Just an FYI: If you have a pet peeve for people saying Uhhhh and/or Ummmm multiple times, be prepared lol.

Kid is so god damn long tho.
SparksFly87 wrote:Towns got boat feet and gets off the ground very slow with a lack of explosiveness . He is a rich mans Henry Sims to me. No thanks .
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Re: Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll 

Post#1511 » by Negrodamus » Thu May 26, 2016 8:02 pm

Kobblehead wrote:
Negrodamus wrote:What's you're point here? Anthony Davis was 3 for 20 from 3 also. KAT was 2 for 8 in his time. I can imagine either took a whole lot of mid range shots based on my recollection of seeing them play.

Either way, this is diverting from the point that they, much like Jamal Murray, were used in a role much different then what they are in the NBA.


The idea that Cal's use of Towns or Davis masked their ability to shoot is a myth. Anyone that payed attention could see the immense offensive ability and skill level of those players. Who cares about three point shooting when both players were drilling mid-range jumpers and displaying proficiency at the free throw line? Their ability to shoot was EASILY distinguishable. If you couldn't see that, you never properly evaluated them in the first place.

If Murray or Ingram had distributing instincts, it would have been evident. Just like the shooting ability and offensive skill level of Karl Towns and Anthony Davis.


To bring home the point, since you provide no stats about Towns or Davis's shooting volume from midrange and beyond (I'd like sources, not just confrontational comments like "If you couldn't see that, you never properly evaluated them in the first place."), I won't even leave UK.

Eric Bledsoe, second fiddle to John Wall at UK: 2.9 apg to 3 TOpg
Eric Bledsoe now: 6.1 apg to 3.5 TOpg

But Eric Bledsoe's AST% was 16.8% at UK to Jamal Murray's 12.1%. Okay, how about Devin Booker?

Devin Booker at UK: 10.9 AST%
Devin Booker now: 15.8 AST% (half of the year he was off the bench)

I'm not sure why I'm even arguing this. He has no need to pass the ball with Ulis and Briscoe as the guys feeding him off screens. Everyone has a role in Kentucky; no one is allow to Ben Simmons their way through the season.
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Re: Re: Re: Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll 

Post#1512 » by Sportfan73 » Thu May 26, 2016 8:06 pm

PhilasFinest wrote:Brandon Ingram 2016 NBA PreDraft Workout Video and Interview
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Brandon-Ingram-2016-NBA-Pre-Draft-Workout-Video-and-Interview-5516/

Just an FYI: If you have a pet peeve for people saying Uhhhh and/or Ummmm multiple times, be prepared lol.

Kid is so god damn long tho.

that jumper is absolutely silky smooth.
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Re: Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll 

Post#1513 » by Kobblehead » Thu May 26, 2016 8:07 pm

42.4% of Anthony Davis' FGA were mid-range jumpshots.
53.5% of Karl Towns' FGA were mid-range jumpshots.

You're a Kentucky fan, aren't you? I wonder how close you're even watching your own team play.
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Re: Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll 

Post#1514 » by Negrodamus » Thu May 26, 2016 8:10 pm

Kobblehead wrote:42.4% of Anthony Davis' field goals were mid-range jumpshots.
53.5% of Karl Towns' field goals were mid-range jumpshots.

You're a Kentucky fan, aren't you? I wonder how close you're even watching your own team play.


I'm too busy refreshing the front page here looking for your "Welcome back, Kobblehead Thread".

Ignore all the other points I made about Jamal Murray and his "underrated passing". Also don't quote me when shooting your cute jabs.
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Re: Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll 

Post#1515 » by LongLiveHinkie » Thu May 26, 2016 8:14 pm

Add LSU beat writer and Tim Legler to the Simmons detractor camp.

http://www.crossingbroad.com/2016/05/the-simmons-debate-continues-phil-martelli-would-take-him-lsu-beat-writer-wouldnt.html

Legler was on 97.5. Said he questions what he'll do offensively in the NBA and likes Ingram as a scorer.
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Re: Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll 

Post#1516 » by Kobblehead » Thu May 26, 2016 8:20 pm

Negrodamus wrote:I'm too busy refreshing the front page here looking for your "Welcome back, Kobblehead Thread".

Ignore all the other points I made about Jamal Murray and his "underrated passing". Also don't quote me when shooting your cute jabs.

Why are you getting upset? I'm not taking cute jabs, I'm literally just trying to educate you. I'm providing you data, showing that your recollection failed you.

Negrodamus wrote:but Cal didn't ask them to be jump shooters because of their ability around the rim.


Negrodamus wrote:I can imagine either took a whole lot of mid range shots based on my recollection of seeing them play.


Yes he did.

Both of them took a whole bunch of them.

42.4% of Anthony Davis' FGA were mid-range jumpshots.
53.5% of Karl Towns' FGA were mid-range jumpshots.


Which is why I'm genuinely wondering how close you're watching your team. Or how well you remember said players in the Kentucky uniform.
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Re: Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll 

Post#1517 » by Negrodamus » Thu May 26, 2016 8:26 pm

Kobblehead wrote:
Negrodamus wrote:I'm too busy refreshing the front page here looking for your "Welcome back, Kobblehead Thread".

Ignore all the other points I made about Jamal Murray and his "underrated passing". Also don't quote me when shooting your cute jabs.

Why are you getting upset? I'm not taking cute jabs, I'm literally just trying to educate you. I'm providing you data, showing that your recollection failed you.

Negrodamus wrote:but Cal didn't ask them to be jump shooters because of their ability around the rim.


Negrodamus wrote:I can imagine either took a whole lot of mid range shots based on my recollection of seeing them play.


Yes he did.

Both of them took a whole bunch of them.

42.4% of Anthony Davis' FGA were mid-range jumpshots.
53.5% of Karl Towns' FGA were mid-range jumpshots.


Which is why I'm genuinely wondering how close you're watching your team. Or how well you remember said players in the Kentucky uniform.


Let me educate you before you educate me. This comment:

You're a Kentucky fan, aren't you? I wonder how close you're even watching your own team play.


is not a curious way of asking. Without tone, and even with tone, it's questioning my ability to pay attention to my own team. I know you know this because you all of the sudden stopped quoting me to make that snarky remark so I don't get the notification. It's a continuation of your passive aggressive posting on here.

If you'd like me to concede that they shot enough from the midrange (which I'd like to know how far out that extends to), then sure, you beat me in this conversation rabbit hole that started out about Jamal Murray being an underrated passer which was also rabbit holed about Ingram being an underrated passer. You won! Congrats!

The poster Ericb and I disagree on literally everything when it comes to the Sixers, however we both manage to have cordial conversations. I think the one thing we can both agree on is how ******* annoying your tone is.
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Re: Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll 

Post#1518 » by Kobblehead » Thu May 26, 2016 8:29 pm

PhilasFinest wrote:Just an FYI: If you have a pet peeve for people saying Uhhhh and/or Ummmm multiple times, be prepared lol.

Kid is so god damn long tho.


That's the good thing about being the team that drafted Speezy. We can tolerate any awful speaking quirks after that freaking guy.
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Re: Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll 

Post#1519 » by oddwolfhooligan » Thu May 26, 2016 8:39 pm

I think Simmons will be fine as a player in the NBA, but some of you are severely over-hyping him. He's far from a sure thing, as far as being a franchise player, and he's a lot more flawed than some of you are indicating.

- You all know this already, but the jump shot is a huge problem. Yes, jump shots can improve, and I'm sure Simmons will marginally improve his shot, but it's pretty rare for guys to go from being complete non-shooters to above average NBA shooters. This is especially the case for players who are lacking in drive and there's a lot of smoke right now that Simmons suffers from that very problem.

- In the half court, Simmons' game relies on taking guys off the dribble or bullying guys around the hoop. This is problematic for multiple reasons. One, if Simmons' can't develop a respectable jump shot, it will be much more difficult for him to penetrate when defenders won't have to guard him closely. However, even if he does develop a respectable jumper, the NBA is filling up with more and more athletic stretch 4s who will be better-suited to stay in front of him than most of the guys who were guarding him in college. As for his tendency to rely on bullying guys around the hoop, this is problematic for obvious reasons. Simmons' length is very much average for a 4 and he won't be able to physically impose himself against NBA bigs in the same way he did in college. This could be somewhat offset if Simmons' played with a ton of intensity and energy, but he doesn't. How can he consistently score in the halfcourt in the NBA—he's going to have to find some kind of way to if he wants to be a legitimate franchise player for a contender.

- When you look at his actual functional in-game athleticism, he's not an elite athlete in the LeBron James, Russell Westbrook, Kobe Bryant kind of mold. Granted, you don't have to be in order to be a legit franchise player. That being said, the non-elite athletes who become legit franchise players tend to be elite scorers in the halfcourt. As I just pointed out, Simmons definitely doesn't fit the bill there.

- There is A LOT of smoke that Simmons has serious attitude/competitiveness problems. I don't care how naturally gifted he is, that matters. Obviously his attitude is something that has the chance to improve as he matures, but the competitive issues seem much more bleak. You absolutely need your franchise player to be a great competitor and that's not usually a skill that someone learns. Usually it's something that a player either has or doesn't have.

- The pro-Simmons' crowd is severely overlooking the fact that Simmons couldn't lead a team with 5 other top-100 players to the NCAA tournament in a season that was severely lacking in overall talent. I don't care who your coach is, if you have what it takes to be a true franchise player on a great team and you have 5 other top-100 players on your roster, you find a way to make the NCAA tournament. The fact that Simmons couldn't accomplish that is a huge red flag.

- Just in general, Simmons was way too reliant on making plays in transition for a guy who is being pegged as a franchise player. Go back and watch any of his games or highlight tapes. A disproportionate amount of his points and assists came in transition.

- Yes, he had good steal and block numbers, but we all know that there's more to playing good defense than accumulating steals and blocks. Simmons hasn't shown the toughness, commitment, or feel to give us any reason to believe that he'll be a plus defender at the NBA level.
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Re: Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll 

Post#1520 » by Kobblehead » Thu May 26, 2016 8:46 pm

Negrodamus wrote:Let me educate you before you educate me. This comment:

You're a Kentucky fan, aren't you? I wonder how close you're even watching your own team play.


is not a curious way of asking. Without tone, and even with tone, it's questioning my ability to pay attention to my own team.


It's a legit question. If a Texas fan didn't recollect a bunch of Myles Turner mid-range jumpers, I'd question how close they were paying attention to their team, as well. You're the one who made the oversight. Don't be mad at me for pointing it out and asking how such an oversight could be made in the first place.

I know you know this because you all of the sudden stopped quoting me to make that snarky remark so I don't get the notification. It's a continuation of your passive aggressive posting on here.


This is a ridiculous reach. I don't do endless block quotes. If you quote me quoting you quoting me, I'm not continuing the trend and ruining the aesthetics of the thread. Do you really need a notification in the midst of a conversation? Just read the thread..

If you'd like me to concede that they shot enough from the midrange (which I'd like to know how far out that extends to), then sure, you beat me in this conversation rabbit hole that started out about Jamal Murray being an underrated passer which was also rabbit holed about Ingram being an underrated passer. You won! Congrats!


It's not even about you making a concession to me and it being a win/loss debate. We're just having a basketball conversation, bro. Drop the edge and have fun. *shrugs*

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