2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread Volume 2

[cksdayoff]

I've cooled on Monk. He's still on the back end of the top ten because the potential is very much there, but others shot up the board. Fox is a top five pick at this point. UK has blown up recently because of him. And I don't think his shot is completely broken.

I believe his shot needs to be reworked

I'd rather have a shooting coach work on De'Aaron's shot than Lonzo's shot. His mechanics look pretty decent and he's a good enough FT shooter right now.

I don't like Fox's form, he brings the ball up and shoots from the side of his face.

[eagereyez]

I believe his shot needs to be reworked

I'd rather have a shooting coach work on De'Aaron's shot than Lonzo's shot. His mechanics look pretty decent and he's a good enough FT shooter right now.

I don't like Fox's form, he brings the ball up and shoots from the side of his face.

I wonder why that is?

[XtremeDunkz]

Outside of top 3 Fox is my guy. I love his competitiveness

[Unbreakable99]

Kobble. What do you think of Isaiah Thomas? He isn't good on D. All he does is score. Do you hink he's a good player or think he's not that good like Booker Beal and McCollum?

[Ericb5]

DSJ reminds me of Steve Francis coming out of college.

I agree, a little like Steve Francis. I think DSj has better PG instincts than Steve Francis had commingl out of college though.

Physically similar, but Francis was probably mentally ill, and Smith doesn't seem like he has any redflags like that.


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[ProcessDoctor]

DSJ reminds me of Steve Francis coming out of college.

I agree, a little like Steve Francis. I think DSj has better PG instincts than Steve Francis had commingl out of college though.

Physically similar, but Francis was probably mentally ill, and Smith doesn't seem like he has any redflags like that.


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I also wondered what happened to Steve Francis after his Knicks tenure. On a similar note, Steph Marbury also seemed pretty out of touch with reality. Let's hope DSJ doesn't end up like either off the court if we end up getting him.

[Kobblehead]

Kobble. What do you think of Isaiah Thomas? He isn't good on D. All he does is score. Do you hink he's a good player or think he's not that good like Booker Beal and McCollum?

I think there are two players in the league that are so elite offensively that the tradeoff for their trash defense is actually worth the trouble. Isaiah Thomas and Dame Lillard. Both have elite handle, elite scoring ability, excellent shotmaking ability, and excellent distributing instincts.

This is the archetype Dennis Smith is gonna have to emulate, because he has no chance to be positionally passable defender (like Fultz does, for instance).

[Sixerscan]

Kobble. What do you think of Isaiah Thomas? He isn't good on D. All he does is score. Do you hink he's a good player or think he's not that good like Booker Beal and McCollum?

I think there are two players in the league that are so elite offensively that the tradeoff for their trash defense is actually worth the trouble. Isaiah Thomas and Dame Lillard. Both have elite handle, elite scoring ability, excellent shotmaking ability, and excellent distributing instincts.

This is the archetype Dennis Smith is gonna have to emulate, because he has no chance to be positionally passable defender (like Fultz does, for instance).

I don't get your point here. You would take that thornwell guy over Beal or McCollum?

I would definitely add Kyrie to your list. Wouldn't exactly take Patty Mills' defense over any of these guys either. Seems like a lot of the best teams get away with questionable defense at the 1. Curry's defense isn't exactly a huge asset himself, though he may be the definition of "passable."

I disagree with writing these guard prospects off defensively at 19 years old. Either way, i think you're getting tunnel vision on a particular type of player. You don't want a team of entirely no defense bucket getters but you also dont just want all of your role players to be solid all around with no elite skill. You need a large variety of players on your team to win a championship.

[PLO]

Where we are projected to pick I think Ntilikina is the guy, works on a lot of levels; can play off ball, good defense, great physical measurables, ton of upside, fits with our international scouting profile. I think he will actually be underdrafted from where he should go - I'd certainly prefer him over Fox. He would look really well with Simmons. I'm sort of hoping some of the more talked about prospects are off the board by the time we pick, so Ball, Fox, Jackson et al and Ntilikina is there. Fultz is the standout prospect in this draft, so would obviously love to have him but without lottery luck he's out of our reach, but if we have something like the 7th pick, Ntilikina is the one I think we should take.

[Kolkmania]

Haha perceptions can change quickly.

I had Fox second or third on my big board and Monk ~10th before the tournament started and I got roasted for doing it. Now the whole narrative is shifted, Monk is a bust and Fox is the guy everybody wants. My advice, don't change your entire evaluation based on a couple of games in the tournament, there's a bigger sample size available.

[LloydFree]

Kobble. What do you think of Isaiah Thomas? He isn't good on D. All he does is score. Do you hink he's a good player or think he's not that good like Booker Beal and McCollum?

I think there are two players in the league that are so elite offensively that the tradeoff for their trash defense is actually worth the trouble. Isaiah Thomas and Dame Lillard. Both have elite handle, elite scoring ability, excellent shotmaking ability, and excellent distributing instincts.

This is the archetype Dennis Smith is gonna have to emulate, because he has no chance to be positionally passable defender (like Fultz does, for instance).

I agree with you for the most part, but I think you are being a little inflexible on this issue. I'm very dogmatic in the thought that I don't want any Big Men on my team who are weak Defensive players. But you can win with weak defenders at the PG position. It's been done over and over. Steve Nash, Kyrie Irving, Steph Curry...

Not only that, the PGs value as a trade piece and in free agency is almost entirely derived from the offensive side of the ball. The draft is not only about building the team, it's also about adding value and talent. Even if you prefer to build the team with Defensive role players, you still draft the offensive PG, and trade him for a King's Ransom later. Taking the next Elfrid Payton doesn't get you any more wins and when it comes time to trade him, you can't get anything because teams always want the offensive PG.

I think there are two different issues with Monk that are being conflated. One is his lack of Defensive value, the other is his offensive PG Skillset. Defense is important, but it's his lack of offensive PG Skillset at his size that makes him a shaky pick high in the draft. DSj has the offensive skillset (as you've pointed out) and therefore has the higher upside. Monk's offensive deficiencies (or perceived offensive deficiencies) are the more important issue.

[51X3RF4N]

Who does everyone have at 6 if the top 5 are Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Tatum, Isaac?

Dennis, Frank, Malik, Zack?

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[Unbreakable99]

Kobble. What do you think of Isaiah Thomas? He isn't good on D. All he does is score. Do you hink he's a good player or think he's not that good like Booker Beal and McCollum?

I think there are two players in the league that are so elite offensively that the tradeoff for their trash defense is actually worth the trouble. Isaiah Thomas and Dame Lillard. Both have elite handle, elite scoring ability, excellent shotmaking ability, and excellent distributing instincts.

This is the archetype Dennis Smith is gonna have to emulate, because he has no chance to be positionally passable defender (like Fultz does, for instance).

I don't get your point here. You would take that thornwell guy over Beal or McCollum?

I would definitely add Kyrie to your list. Wouldn't exactly take Patty Mills' defense over any of these guys either. Seems like a lot of the best teams get away with questionable defense at the 1. Curry's defense isn't exactly a huge asset himself, though he may be the definition of "passable."

I disagree with writing these guard prospects off defensively at 19 years old. Either way, i think you're getting tunnel vision on a particular type of player. You don't want a team of entirely no defense bucket getters but you also dont just want all of your role players to be solid all around with no elite skill. You need a large variety of players on your team to win a championship.

Yeah. I give more leeway on guards who aren't that good on defense if they can score. I would rather have Booker on our team than Smart and I like Smart a lot. Not are good to me and Smart is a guy every team should want but having a shooter like Booker would be a better fit than Smart. Both would be good fits though. I can see the argument for Smart if you choose him over Booker for our team though. Kobble hstes Booker and it wouldn't even be a second thought and he would take Smart in a heartbeat. I just think it would be a tougher choice.

[Unbreakable99]

Kobble. What do you think of Isaiah Thomas? He isn't good on D. All he does is score. Do you hink he's a good player or think he's not that good like Booker Beal and McCollum?

I think there are two players in the league that are so elite offensively that the tradeoff for their trash defense is actually worth the trouble. Isaiah Thomas and Dame Lillard. Both have elite handle, elite scoring ability, excellent shotmaking ability, and excellent distributing instincts.

This is the archetype Dennis Smith is gonna have to emulate, because he has no chance to be positionally passable defender (like Fultz does, for instance).

I agree with you for the most part, but I think you are being a little inflexible on this issue. I'm very dogmatic in the thought that I don't want any Big Men on my team who are weak Defensive players. But you can win with weak defenders at the PG position. It's been done over and over. Steve Nash, Kyrie Irving, Steph Curry...

Not only that, the PGs value as a trade piece and in free agency is almost entirely derived from the offensive side of the ball. The draft is not only about building the team, it's also about adding value and talent. Even if you prefer to build the team with Defensive role players, you still draft the offensive PG, and trade him for a King's Ransom later. Taking the next Elfrid Payton doesn't get you any more wins and when it comes time to trade him, you can't get anything because teams always want the offensive PG.

I think there are two different issues with Monk that are being conflated. One is his lack of Defensive value, the other is his offensive PG Skillset. Defense is important, but it's his lack of offensive PG Skillset at his size that makes him a shaky pick high in the draft. DSj has the offensive skillset (as you've pointed out) and therefore has the higher upside. Monk's offensive deficiencies (or perceived offensive deficiencies) are the more important issue.

Most of the better guards aren't that good on defense. Harden and Kyrie and Steph and many others are goodvon offense and just get by on defense. I think you can win with guys like McCollum or Beal if you have other good players around them. In a vacuum how close do you think KCP and McCollum are? Who do you think is better?

[Kobblehead]

Yeah. I give more leeway on guards who aren't that good on defense if they can score. I would rather have Booker on our team than Smart and I like Smart a lot. Not are good to me and Smart is a guy every team should want but having a shooter like Booker would be a better fit than Smart. Both would be good fits though. I can see the argument for Smart if you choose him over Booker for our team though. Kobble hstes Booker and it wouldn't even be a second thought and he would take Smart in a heartbeat. I just think it would be a tougher choice.

Of course I would take Smart. I would rather have a good player that doesn't score much over a bad player that scores a ton. The same way I would take Robert Covington over Andrew Wiggins in a heartbeat.

[LloydFree]

I think there are two players in the league that are so elite offensively that the tradeoff for their trash defense is actually worth the trouble. Isaiah Thomas and Dame Lillard. Both have elite handle, elite scoring ability, excellent shotmaking ability, and excellent distributing instincts.

This is the archetype Dennis Smith is gonna have to emulate, because he has no chance to be positionally passable defender (like Fultz does, for instance).

I agree with you for the most part, but I think you are being a little inflexible on this issue. I'm very dogmatic in the thought that I don't want any Big Men on my team who are weak Defensive players. But you can win with weak defenders at the PG position. It's been done over and over. Steve Nash, Kyrie Irving, Steph Curry...

Not only that, the PGs value as a trade piece and in free agency is almost entirely derived from the offensive side of the ball. The draft is not only about building the team, it's also about adding value and talent. Even if you prefer to build the team with Defensive role players, you still draft the offensive PG, and trade him for a King's Ransom later. Taking the next Elfrid Payton doesn't get you any more wins and when it comes time to trade him, you can't get anything because teams always want the offensive PG.

I think there are two different issues with Monk that are being conflated. One is his lack of Defensive value, the other is his offensive PG Skillset. Defense is important, but it's his lack of offensive PG Skillset at his size that makes him a shaky pick high in the draft. DSj has the offensive skillset (as you've pointed out) and therefore has the higher upside. Monk's offensive deficiencies (or perceived offensive deficiencies) are the more important issue.

Most of the better guards aren't that good on defense. Harden and Kyrie and Steph and many others are goodvon offense and just get by on defense. I think you can win with guys like McCollum or Beal if you have other good players around them. In a vacuum how close do you think KCP and McCollum are? Who do you think is better?

McCollum and Beal aren't in the the class of Harden, Curry or Irving. They don't have PG instincts. McCollum and Beal are undersized Shooting Guards. They are what you hope Monk can become.

With regards to who's better between KCP or McCollum: It depends on what you already have on the team. If you have a bunch of good defensive players in the Frontcourt and a PG with some size I'd take McCollum. If the team is more traditional, with a smaller, ball dominant PG, I'd take KCP.

[Kobblehead]

There aren't a lot of guards that play good defense, but there are plenty that play "slightly below standard to passable" defense. Settling for guys that are trash on the defensive end is a pointless concession (unless they're extraordinarily elite offensively like I.T. and Dame).

[Kolkmania]

Unlike Bradley Beal and Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, CJ McCollum does have the handle to play the point guard position. The pairing with Damian Lillard is just not working, which hurts him on the defensive end. I think CJ is a decent, but not great, defender at the point guard position. He's also not the best playmaker, that's not a huge deal though since he could share that burden with Simmons.
If our pick ends up something like 4-8, I would consider trading that pick for McCollum. He's the perfect fit with Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons and it might make sense for Portland as well?

[the_process]

Kobble. What do you think of Isaiah Thomas? He isn't good on D. All he does is score. Do you hink he's a good player or think he's not that good like Booker Beal and McCollum?

I think there are two players in the league that are so elite offensively that the tradeoff for their trash defense is actually worth the trouble. Isaiah Thomas and Dame Lillard. Both have elite handle, elite scoring ability, excellent shotmaking ability, and excellent distributing instincts.

This is the archetype Dennis Smith is gonna have to emulate, because he has no chance to be positionally passable defender (like Fultz does, for instance).

I don't get your point here. You would take that thornwell guy over Beal or McCollum?

I would definitely add Kyrie to your list. Wouldn't exactly take Patty Mills' defense over any of these guys either. Seems like a lot of the best teams get away with questionable defense at the 1. Curry's defense isn't exactly a huge asset himself, though he may be the definition of "passable."

I disagree with writing these guard prospects off defensively at 19 years old. Either way, i think you're getting tunnel vision on a particular type of player. You don't want a team of entirely no defense bucket getters but you also dont just want all of your role players to be solid all around with no elite skill. You need a large variety of players on your team to win a championship.

Eye test says Patty Mills plays better D than any of these other guys, and numbers bear that out. DRPM out of 90 PG's ranked; Mills is 53rd, Lillard is 68th, Irving is 76th, and Thomas is dead last at 90th. Yes, you could call him a lesser shade of bad; but still better.

[No-Man]

I didn't like this year's Kentucky team. I'm surprised they made it this far. Gonna be cool next year to see them with a true rim protecting C in Nick Richards. Something they've lacked the past couple of years since Willie and Towns left.

Screw that, I want Mo Bamba too.

I'd guess he goes there, even if it makes 0 sense for him, I'd go to Duke if I were Mo 100%

Between Sacha and Wynyard one gotta transfer right? like if UK gets Bamba they got;

Green/SGA
Diallo/SGA
Vanderbilt/Washington
Gabriel/SKJ/Wynyard
Bamba/Richards/Humphries

dunno if that's doable, you are already playing two PFs at the 3, not sure who will get the nod, PJ is a better scorer but Vanderbilt is a better all around player, and two streaky shooters in your backcourt.

The team looks like it's gonna be a mess, they will win some games due to been huge and overwhelming athletically at times, but it's gonna be disgusting to watch.

OTOH if he goes to Duke, with most likely everybody but Bolden leaving, he is likely gonna get the starting spot, esp if Knox doesnt committ there, next to Carter, and they might even get Duval too, like Duke could've;

Duval-Jackson
Jackson-Trent
Kennard-Knox
Carter-DeLaurier
Bamba-Bolden

Much better spacing, more vets, the UK team is all freshmen other than Gabriel, SKJ and Humphries basically, likely bigger role, I mean...should be a no-brainer but kids go with Cal, because of AD, Towns etc,... when if they actually wanted to improve as bigs they should go to Kansas because Self is by a mile the best big men coach in the country, without question.