Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll

[freshie2]

The ft% issue was raised before, but it doesn't seem to hut the radar. I guess what's funny is how some are so far in the camp of one that they completely ignore the value of the other. Simmons is easily #1 in my opinion, but would not be upset if they took Ingram as he's very skilled as well. I don't think Ingram has the star factor of Simmons, but should be a very god pro.

[Negrodamus]

Just to put it into a little context, here are some skinny guys in the NBA:

Paul George FR Fresno St: 69.7% FT NBA Career: 83.8% FT
Rudy Gay FR UConn:........70.8% FT NBA:..........79.3% FT
Otto Porter FR Gtown:.....70.2% FT NBA:..........74.2% FT
Tayshaun Prince FR UK:....65.6% FT NBA:..........75.6% FT

Some other guys

Isaiah Thomas FR Wash:.....68.6% FT NBA:..........86.3% FT
Rodney Hood FR Miss St:....65.9% FT NBA:..........83.2% FT
Kawhi Leonard FR SDST:....72.6% FT NBA:..........82.8% FT

Thank god these guys are allowed to improve in the pros. And for all those afraid of Kris Dunn's FT%, Isaiah was 68.6% FR year, 73.2% SO year, and 71.9% JR year. Now he's about 15% better in the pros.

The FT issue isn't an issue. Maybe he's not used to shooting free throws in front of 15-25K crowds.

[PhilasFinest]

Just to put it into a little context, here are some skinny guys in the NBA:

Paul George FR Fresno St: 69.7% FT NBA Career: 83.8% FT
Rudy Gay FR UConn:........70.8% FT NBA:..........79.3% FT
Otto Porter FR Gtown:.....70.2% FT NBA:..........74.2% FT
Tayshaun Prince FR UK:....65.6% FT NBA:..........75.6% FT

Some other guys

Isaiah Thomas FR Wash:.....68.6% FT NBA:..........86.3% FT
Rodney Hood FR Miss St:....65.9% FT NBA:..........83.2% FT
Kawhi Leonard FR SDST:....72.6% FT NBA:..........82.8% FT

Thank god these guys are allowed to improve in the pros. And for all those afraid of Kris Dunn's FT%, Isaiah was 68.6% FR year, 73.2% SO year, and 71.9% JR year. Now he's about 15% better in the pros.

The FT issue isn't an issue. Maybe he's not used to shooting free throws in front of 15-25K crowds.

I don't think people are making that big of a deal about it. Guys generally improve on it. (as your above post and my earlier one showing the correlation between improved FT shooting /Jump shooting show)

I think it was more brought up because some (not you) have used it against Simmons, yet discredit the issue with Ingram despite them shooting nearly the same % from the line.

The main strengths/weaknesses have been debated 100x over already. It has gotten to the point of nitpicking silly things like this.

[Kobblehead]

So PF's no longer need to provide any rim protection?

Sure, there are other keys do defense, such as being able to switch on P&R and rebounding (strong areas for Simmons)... but rim protection is has not lost its importance. And PF's do have to cross cover bigs too.

Guys on contenders like Green, Ibaka and Aldridge can shoot... and stop someone at the rim. Same with Porzingis and a lot of emerging stretch 4s. I still think Simmons has lots of strengths, but he also has weaknesses that require roster building to his abilities.

The issue here is that we just see Simmons in different roles at the next level. You're citing examples of guys that split time at the PF and C spot.

I would never consider the PF spot as a primary position of his. Will he play some small ball 4? Probably, but I see him as a wing, above all else. Which means he'll be along the perimeter defending opposing wings more then he'll ever be in the paint, expected to be the last line of defense for a team.

Also, the term "rim protector" is being used too loosely here. Not every weakside shotblocker is inherently a rim protector. Draymond playing small ball C for 20% of his minutes this year is the reason Golden State got lit up, allowing the 11th highest field goal percentage at the rim.

[tk76]

If Simmons is primarily a wing then he needs to have a respectable jumper. There are no top wings who can't at least shoot a little bit from their spots.

If Simmons is going to be PF, them he needs to be a good interior defender and offer some rim protection. They enjoy I brought up other 4's who can stretch the floor but still defend and protect the rim.

I'm not saying Simmons has insurmountable problems in these areas... just that there are issues that could lead to problems if he ends closer to his floor as opposed to his ceiling. Just like Okafor, despite his immense talent, came in with issues regarding his shooting, defense and rim protection that he may or may not address with time.

Ingram has his own weaknesses, but 3pt range is not one of them. He needs to bulk up on order to diversify his impact. It is unclear whether he is headed for just good vs great.

But IMO, from floor to ceiling Ingram is a guy who is valuable to a contender and can be plugged into any team. I don't feel the same about Simmons. At his ceiling he is more valuable than Ingram. At his floor he is a good player, but not one that easily fits with other to players, so messed up your roster construction. He is a guy you have to coming to building around... which could be a good thing if it works out.

So to me, choosing Ingram vs Simmons has a lot to do with what your confidence level of that Simmons approache his ceiling. I don't have an answer for that, but am listening to everyone's opinions.

[Ericb5]

If Simmons is primarily a wing then he needs to have a respectable jumper. There are no top wings who can't at least shoot a little bit from their spots.

If Simmons is going to be PF, them he needs to be a good interior defender and offer some rim protection. They enjoy I brought up other 4's who can stretch the floor but still defend and protect the rim.

I'm not saying Simmons has insurmountable problems in these areas... just that there are issues that could lead to problems if he ends closer to his floor as opposed to his ceiling. Just like Okafor, despite his immense talent, came in with issues regarding his shooting, defense and rim protection that he may or may not address with time.

Ingram has his own weaknesses, but 3pt range is not one of them. He needs to bulk up on order to diversify his impact. It is unclear whether he is headed for just good vs great.

But IMO, from floor to ceiling Ingram is a guy who is valuable to a contender and can be plugged into any team. I don't feel the same about Simmons. At his ceiling he is more valuable than Ingram. At his floor he is a good player, but not one that easily fits with other to players, so messed up your roster construction. He is a guy you have to coming to building around... which could be a good thing if it works out.

So to me, choosing Ingram vs Simmons has a lot to do with what your confidence level of that Simmons approache his ceiling. I don't have an answer for that, but am listening to everyone's opinions.

Simmons isn't perfect, but you are trying to find reasons to select a less talented player that fits better.

We are selecting prospects here, and Simmons has the most potential. He won't be expected to be great from day one, and getting a respectable jumper isn't an overwhelming task.

He won't be a traditional wing or power forward or point guard. He will be a pretty unique combination of those things. He just doesn't fit nicely in any specific box right now.


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[Kobblehead]

A bunch of quote responses:

Spoiler:

If Simmons is primarily a wing then he needs to have a respectable jumper. There are no top wings who can't at least shoot a little bit from their spots.

Agreed. I've always maintained that he's going to need to implement a consistent mid-range jumper. Right now he's shooting about 33% on his jumpers inside the arc. He's going to raise that percentage to at least 38% for him to begin his journey to being an elite offensive player.

If Simmons is going to be PF, them he needs to be a good interior defender and offer some rim protection. They enjoy I brought up other 4's who can stretch the floor but still defend and protect the rim.

Even if Ben Simmons isn't a primary wing, he's going to split the time between the F spots. He'll never be a full-time PF. The guys you brought up (with the exception of Draymond) are pretty much standard bigs. Ben Simmons is not, nor will he ever, function as one of those guys.

I'm not saying Simmons has insurmountable problems in these areas... just that there are issues that could lead to problems if he ends closer to his floor as opposed to his ceiling. Just like Okafor, despite his immense talent, came in with issues regarding his shooting, defense and rim protection that he may or may not address with time.

Concerns over Jahlil Okafor's rim protection are valid since he's a Center and will always be the last line of defense in charge of protecting the rim. Ben Simmons, being a SF/PF hybrid, will never be the last line of defense. Making the prospects of whether or not he can protect the rim an irrelevant point.

Ingram has his own weaknesses, but 3pt range is not one of them. He needs to bulk up on order to diversify his impact. It is unclear whether he is headed for just good vs great.

I'm not saying his 3 point range is a weakness. I'm saying that the fact that he's a pure catch-and-shoot player calls into question the validity of the reputation that comes from being a 40%+ three point shooter. People are throwing around the term "elite shooter" to describe Brandon Ingram and I think that's a deceptive tag. His free throw shooting is garbage, he's nothing special from the mid-range, and 95% of his field goals from beyond the arc are assisted. At the NBA level, he'll be forced to create that shot for himself. How do we know his percentages won't take a serious dip when he's forced to create for himself on pullups and the like? Legitimate question.

But IMO, from floor to ceiling Ingram is a guy who is valuable to a contender and can be plugged into any team.

Brandon Ingram's floor is a catch-and-shoot perimeter dweller that doesn't do much else. Those guys are usually signed with the MLE. Not taken with the first pick in the NBA draft.

I don't feel the same about Simmons. At his ceiling he is more valuable than Ingram. At his floor he is a good player, but not one that easily fits with other to players, so messed up your roster construction. He is a guy you have to coming to building around... which could be a good thing if it works out.

How does Ben Simmons not easily fit with other players? Multi-tool players offer more line-up versatility and creativity, if anything. Can Brandon Ingram make a back-court of Isaiah Cannon and Hollis Thompson look effective? I can guarantee Ben Simmons would.

So to me, choosing Ingram vs Simmons has a lot to do with what your confidence level of that Simmons approache his ceiling. I don't have an answer for that, but am listening to everyone's opinions.

That's a copout. Ben Simmons has both the higher floor and the higher ceiling.

Choosing Brandon Ingram would be making the choice to take a much worse prospect just because of his position-conventional skillset. He just wasn't a good enough player during his freshman year at Duke to justify taking him over Ben Simmons.

[76ciology]

If Simmons is primarily a wing then he needs to have a respectable jumper. There are no top wings who can't at least shoot a little bit from their spots.

If Simmons is going to be PF, them he needs to be a good interior defender and offer some rim protection. They enjoy I brought up other 4's who can stretch the floor but still defend and protect the rim.

I'm not saying Simmons has insurmountable problems in these areas... just that there are issues that could lead to problems if he ends closer to his floor as opposed to his ceiling. Just like Okafor, despite his immense talent, came in with issues regarding his shooting, defense and rim protection that he may or may not address with time.

Ingram has his own weaknesses, but 3pt range is not one of them. He needs to bulk up on order to diversify his impact. It is unclear whether he is headed for just good vs great.

But IMO, from floor to ceiling Ingram is a guy who is valuable to a contender and can be plugged into any team. I don't feel the same about Simmons. At his ceiling he is more valuable than Ingram. At his floor he is a good player, but not one that easily fits with other to players, so messed up your roster construction. He is a guy you have to coming to building around... which could be a good thing if it works out.

So to me, choosing Ingram vs Simmons has a lot to do with what your confidence level of that Simmons approache his ceiling. I don't have an answer for that, but am listening to everyone's opinions.

Simmons isn't perfect, but you are trying to find reasons to select a less talented player that fits better.

We are selecting prospects here, and Simmons has the most potential. He won't be expected to be great from day one, and getting a respectable jumper isn't an overwhelming task.

He won't be a traditional wing or power forward or point guard. He will be a pretty unique combination of those things. He just doesn't fit nicely in any specific box right now.


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For me the issue here is I have shooting and rim protection(not necessarily shot blocking) as the highest valued attribute on offense and defense, respectively.

I also don't know if Simmons' Trex arms will be an issue in the NBA for most players have very good height to wingspan ratio.

[Ericb5]

If Simmons is primarily a wing then he needs to have a respectable jumper. There are no top wings who can't at least shoot a little bit from their spots.

If Simmons is going to be PF, them he needs to be a good interior defender and offer some rim protection. They enjoy I brought up other 4's who can stretch the floor but still defend and protect the rim.

I'm not saying Simmons has insurmountable problems in these areas... just that there are issues that could lead to problems if he ends closer to his floor as opposed to his ceiling. Just like Okafor, despite his immense talent, came in with issues regarding his shooting, defense and rim protection that he may or may not address with time.

Ingram has his own weaknesses, but 3pt range is not one of them. He needs to bulk up on order to diversify his impact. It is unclear whether he is headed for just good vs great.

But IMO, from floor to ceiling Ingram is a guy who is valuable to a contender and can be plugged into any team. I don't feel the same about Simmons. At his ceiling he is more valuable than Ingram. At his floor he is a good player, but not one that easily fits with other to players, so messed up your roster construction. He is a guy you have to coming to building around... which could be a good thing if it works out.

So to me, choosing Ingram vs Simmons has a lot to do with what your confidence level of that Simmons approache his ceiling. I don't have an answer for that, but am listening to everyone's opinions.

Simmons isn't perfect, but you are trying to find reasons to select a less talented player that fits better.

We are selecting prospects here, and Simmons has the most potential. He won't be expected to be great from day one, and getting a respectable jumper isn't an overwhelming task.

He won't be a traditional wing or power forward or point guard. He will be a pretty unique combination of those things. He just doesn't fit nicely in any specific box right now.


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For me the issue here is I have shooting and rim protection(not necessarily shot blocking) as the highest valued attribute on offense and defense, respectively.

I also don't know if Simmons' Trex arms will be an issue in the NBA for most players have very good height to wingspan ratio.

Trex arms? He is 6'9 with a 7'0 wingspan.

Considering that we have two elite rim protectors right now in Noel, and Embiid I think we have enough rim protection.

The shooting stuff has been talked to death, but I think he will be fine. He will never shoot like Ingram, but he is better or even everywhere else.


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[76ciology]

Simmons isn't perfect, but you are trying to find reasons to select a less talented player that fits better.

We are selecting prospects here, and Simmons has the most potential. He won't be expected to be great from day one, and getting a respectable jumper isn't an overwhelming task.

He won't be a traditional wing or power forward or point guard. He will be a pretty unique combination of those things. He just doesn't fit nicely in any specific box right now.


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For me the issue here is I have shooting and rim protection(not necessarily shot blocking) as the highest valued attribute on offense and defense, respectively.

I also don't know if Simmons' Trex arms will be an issue in the NBA for most players have very good height to wingspan ratio.

Trex arms? He is 6'9 with a 7'0 wingspan.

Considering that we have two elite rim protectors right now in Noel, and Embiid I think we have enough rim protection.

The shooting stuff has been talked to death, but I think he will be fine. He will never shoot like Ingram, but he is better or even everywhere else.


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I'm talking his wingspan in relative to his height. Tough to be a 6'9 PF without a reliable jumper so I hope he's 6'10. Need 6% more or 4" better wingspan in relative to height to consider elite. Most tweeners do have that attribute.

Shooting is talked to death because that is the holygrail of NBA basketball nowadays. This era makes non-shooters and poor defenders (non-rim protector or low DFG% at the rim) obsolete.

[Ericb5]

For me the issue here is I have shooting and rim protection(not necessarily shot blocking) as the highest valued attribute on offense and defense, respectively.

I also don't know if Simmons' Trex arms will be an issue in the NBA for most players have very good height to wingspan ratio.

Trex arms? He is 6'9 with a 7'0 wingspan.

Considering that we have two elite rim protectors right now in Noel, and Embiid I think we have enough rim protection.

The shooting stuff has been talked to death, but I think he will be fine. He will never shoot like Ingram, but he is better or even everywhere else.


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I'm talking his wingspan in relative to his height. Tough to be a 6'9 PF without a reliable jumper so I hope he's 6'10. Need 6% more or 4" better wingspan in relative to height to consider elite. Most tweeners do have that attribute.

Shooting is talked to death because that is the holygrail of NBA basketball nowadays. This era makes non-shooters and poor defenders (non-rim protector or low DFG% at the rim) obsolete.

He is 6'9 barefoot, and he doesn't wear shoes on his arms for wingspan. Nobody touts wingspan as a strength of his, but it isn't that bad really. It's just than Ingram has a much longer wingspan.

Simmons is basically a guard in a power forwards body. He will be able to guard away from the rim.






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[Negrodamus]

For me the issue here is I have shooting and rim protection(not necessarily shot blocking) as the highest valued attribute on offense and defense, respectively.

I also don't know if Simmons' Trex arms will be an issue in the NBA for most players have very good height to wingspan ratio.

Trex arms? He is 6'9 with a 7'0 wingspan.

Considering that we have two elite rim protectors right now in Noel, and Embiid I think we have enough rim protection.

The shooting stuff has been talked to death, but I think he will be fine. He will never shoot like Ingram, but he is better or even everywhere else.


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I'm talking his wingspan in relative to his height. Tough to be a 6'9 PF without a reliable jumper so I hope he's 6'10. Need 6% more or 4" better wingspan in relative to height to consider elite. Most tweeners do have that attribute.

Shooting is talked to death because that is the holygrail of NBA basketball nowadays. This era makes non-shooters and poor defenders (non-rim protector or low DFG% at the rim) obsolete.

He'll have to defend 3s proficiently for him to be worth it. His length will not be enough against the Davis's of the league.

[Ericb5]

Trex arms? He is 6'9 with a 7'0 wingspan.

Considering that we have two elite rim protectors right now in Noel, and Embiid I think we have enough rim protection.

The shooting stuff has been talked to death, but I think he will be fine. He will never shoot like Ingram, but he is better or even everywhere else.


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I'm talking his wingspan in relative to his height. Tough to be a 6'9 PF without a reliable jumper so I hope he's 6'10. Need 6% more or 4" better wingspan in relative to height to consider elite. Most tweeners do have that attribute.

Shooting is talked to death because that is the holygrail of NBA basketball nowadays. This era makes non-shooters and poor defenders (non-rim protector or low DFG% at the rim) obsolete.

He'll have to defend 3s proficiently for him to be worth it. His length will not be enough against the Davis's of the league.

I think he will be a plus defender even though I'm not sure exactly what the best situations will be for him yet.

Davis is a monster by the way, and a great player. I expect him to have trouble with him.


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[Skates]

Simmons looks like a guy who would defend stretch fours and threes very well. Excellent lateral quickness and instincts in locating and anticipating passing lanes. Not a rim protector, but an excellent rebounder in traffic, which is a defensive plus. If he doesn't have to carry a team offensively he can be a plus defender.

At this point the thread seems fairly moot. Simmons has quickly become the Sixers' strong preference with the first pick, he would really have to fall hard at this point for us not to take him.

[Negrodamus]

I'm talking his wingspan in relative to his height. Tough to be a 6'9 PF without a reliable jumper so I hope he's 6'10. Need 6% more or 4" better wingspan in relative to height to consider elite. Most tweeners do have that attribute.

Shooting is talked to death because that is the holygrail of NBA basketball nowadays. This era makes non-shooters and poor defenders (non-rim protector or low DFG% at the rim) obsolete.

He'll have to defend 3s proficiently for him to be worth it. His length will not be enough against the Davis's of the league.

I think he will be a plus defender even though I'm not sure exactly what the best situations will be for him yet.

Davis is a monster by the way, and a great player. I expect him to have trouble with him.


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Right, but let me change it up real quick to the Timberwolves. If I have the ability to put a Simmons, Noel, Embiid lineup on the floor with Noel solely focusing on defending KAT, then that would be great (Embiid on Dieng). But that would leave Simmons potentially on Wiggins if they go with a smaller lineup with LaVine. Do we honestly want something like that? I know I don't want Simmons guarding KAT.

Against the Cavs, Simmons on LeBron? I'm just not psyched about those types of matchups. I'm really hoping he played passively on defense because he didn't want to get in foul trouble.

[Ericb5]

He'll have to defend 3s proficiently for him to be worth it. His length will not be enough against the Davis's of the league.

I think he will be a plus defender even though I'm not sure exactly what the best situations will be for him yet.

Davis is a monster by the way, and a great player. I expect him to have trouble with him.


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Right, but let me change it up real quick to the Timberwolves. If I have the ability to put a Simmons, Noel, Embiid lineup on the floor with Noel solely focusing on defending KAT, then that would be great (Embiid on Dieng). But that would leave Simmons potentially on Wiggins if they go with a smaller lineup with LaVine. Do we honestly want something like that? I know I don't want Simmons guarding KAT.

Against the Cavs, Simmons on LeBron? I'm just not psyched about those types of matchups. I'm really hoping he played passively on defense because he didn't want to get in foul trouble.

You are picking another very specific example which is not typical for the defensive responsibilities that he will have in general.

However, Wiggins is maybe the best athlete in the league, give or take a Westbrook, and it seems to me like Simmons is about the best you could hope for in a defensive profile to deal with him.

The important thing is that Simmons is going to kill Wiggins inside on the other side, as well as off the ball, since he will be a primary facilitator.

I would MUCH rather have the Simmons side of the Wiggins/Simmons battle.


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[Negrodamus]

I think he will be a plus defender even though I'm not sure exactly what the best situations will be for him yet.

Davis is a monster by the way, and a great player. I expect him to have trouble with him.


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Right, but let me change it up real quick to the Timberwolves. If I have the ability to put a Simmons, Noel, Embiid lineup on the floor with Noel solely focusing on defending KAT, then that would be great (Embiid on Dieng). But that would leave Simmons potentially on Wiggins if they go with a smaller lineup with LaVine. Do we honestly want something like that? I know I don't want Simmons guarding KAT.

Against the Cavs, Simmons on LeBron? I'm just not psyched about those types of matchups. I'm really hoping he played passively on defense because he didn't want to get in foul trouble.

You are picking another very specific example which is not typical for the defensive responsibilities that he will have in general.

However, Wiggins is maybe the best athlete in the league, give or take a Westbrook, and it seems to me like Simmons is about the best you could hope for in a defensive profile to deal with him.

The important thing is that Simmons is going to kill Wiggins inside on the other side, as well as off the ball, since he will be a primary facilitator.

I would MUCH rather have the Simmons side of the Wiggins/Simmons battle.


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This is the NBA. Each team presumably has a star on it. He's going to be frequently facing either a star PF or star SF. Unless he's guarding a like-statured PF such as Blake Griffin or Draymond Green, I'm not terribly optimistic with the matchup.

[cksdayoff]

if simmons has the drive, he can be a really good defender. his 6'11 wingspan isn't great but isn't bad either. He has the quickness and athleticism to stay with his man, he's not gonna be a rim protector though

[2 Clutch]

if simmons has the drive, he can be a really good defender. his 6'11 wingspan isn't great but isn't bad either. He has the quickness and athleticism to stay with his man, he's not gonna be a rim protector though

That's a BIG if, from what we saw from his college performance on defense, esp down the stretch, no drive seems more likely.

[SelfishPlayer]

Rebounding can be overrated in a prospect, especially if that prospect is a non shooter at a position where he is needed to shoot. Simmons is projected as a point forward, he needs to be able to shoot. Take a look at the top 10 rebounders in the NBA during the 15-16 season, they are on a bunch of non playoff teams and teams that are non contenders. At the present moment Simmons looks like a 6'10" Evan Turner. A part of Evan Turner's game that was overlooked as a prospect that quickly became glaringly apparent in the NBA is that he was physically not a plus athlete for the position in comparison to NBA players. Simmons doesn't appear to have very much of an athletic advantage over the typical starting NBA PF/SF. Where he separates himself is coordination off the dribble for a player so large. But how does that work against the larger true SFs in the league that are accustomed to guarding perimeter players? When they sag off of him what happens then?