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the_process wrote:Unbreakable99 wrote:
Why is Wright posting this? Okafor looks like he's in f*****g quicksand there. Now maybe that's the drill, I haven't seen that one before... but damn it looks like it's in slo-mo.
agiaco wrote:It looks like he's supposed to focus some weight on each leg for a brief moment both for balance and to strengthen. It does look like slo-mo but I have to assume it's deliberately slowed down for the aforementioned reason.
Sixerscan wrote:spikeslovechild wrote:Sixerscan wrote:I think you guys are making a mistake if you think criticism of Okafor at this point comes from not rooting for him, rather than trying to reign in people with ridiculous out of wack expectations for him. I'd be just as happy to not talk about the guy and just wait and see the way we do with a guy like Stauskas.
As of right now he's the 4th string center. If he wants to dress for opening night he needs to have a good camp, and even then it might not be enough with a healthy roster. It would be pretty unfair to play him at this point over Holmes, who has gone through the same crappy rosters Okafor has and has clearly outplayed him to date.
We're well past the point where he just needs to "try hard" or whatever. He needs to figure out how to outplay other players that have been better than him, and that may very well involve completely changing his approach and understanding of the game.
I disagree with pretty much everything you wrote. We all watch the games and there are certain players who just can't play in this league Jerome Simpson is one of those guys. Adam Morrison was a guy who I saw early and said dude can't play in this league.
Okafor proved his rookie year he could play in this league. Ainge offered a top pick for him which was turned down. So it wasn't just fans who had high expectations for him the league did.
You can say just try harder doesn't cut it but almost all his problems can be traced back to his compete level. His rebounding. His inability to set screens on offense. Not getting in motion on offense. Not running the floor on defense.
That doesn't mean he'll get any better mind you. Curry never did. He was named baby shaq got traded for two first round picks but decided he'd rather waste away his talent. I hope that doesn't happen with Okafor but I think one of the worst things we can sort of do is give him away and if he plays well say see I told you he would never do that here. He still could the difference is with Embiid he's not really needed. So if we can get decent value for him which I view is a late round first then I move him but I'm not moving him for a change of scenery.
I don't think it's just effort. He has to change from trying to dominate the ball to being a secondary player. Also don't think playing better defense is just trying hard it's a change in mindset.
I didn't say anything about giving him away? Just that he's the 4th string center based on merit and if he wants to change that he has to earn it in camp.
That being said, saying one of the "worst things we can do" is something involving Okafor shows a real lack of perspective.
spikeslovechild wrote:Sixerscan wrote:spikeslovechild wrote:
I disagree with pretty much everything you wrote. We all watch the games and there are certain players who just can't play in this league Jerome Simpson is one of those guys. Adam Morrison was a guy who I saw early and said dude can't play in this league.
Okafor proved his rookie year he could play in this league. Ainge offered a top pick for him which was turned down. So it wasn't just fans who had high expectations for him the league did.
You can say just try harder doesn't cut it but almost all his problems can be traced back to his compete level. His rebounding. His inability to set screens on offense. Not getting in motion on offense. Not running the floor on defense.
That doesn't mean he'll get any better mind you. Curry never did. He was named baby shaq got traded for two first round picks but decided he'd rather waste away his talent. I hope that doesn't happen with Okafor but I think one of the worst things we can sort of do is give him away and if he plays well say see I told you he would never do that here. He still could the difference is with Embiid he's not really needed. So if we can get decent value for him which I view is a late round first then I move him but I'm not moving him for a change of scenery.
I don't think it's just effort. He has to change from trying to dominate the ball to being a secondary player. Also don't think playing better defense is just trying hard it's a change in mindset.
I didn't say anything about giving him away? Just that he's the 4th string center based on merit and if he wants to change that he has to earn it in camp.
That being said, saying one of the "worst things we can do" is something involving Okafor shows a real lack of perspective.
Worse thing we can do inregards managing Okafor value not the team.
As far as the usage rate goes the reason why you are focusing on it and it's valid I did last year is that when he's not scoring he's hurting you in other areas like rebounding and defense. Plus he's not doing the little things like setting screens and running the floor as well. So he basically has to score at a high usage rate to make up in those areas his rookie year he did that but like many I was hoping for improvement I was hoping for him to build on that instead he regressed.
I don't really think many saw the regression coming. Some didn't like his style but even his detractors were labeling him Lopez or Kanter. He was so far away from that last season.
As far as him being 4th string it's sort of a meaningless label because he's more talented then the other guys other then Embiid obviously. If he stays there because he's still got a bum knee, doesn't compete, or whatever fine but thats on him
Sixerscan wrote:spikeslovechild wrote:Sixerscan wrote:I don't think it's just effort. He has to change from trying to dominate the ball to being a secondary player. Also don't think playing better defense is just trying hard it's a change in mindset.
I didn't say anything about giving him away? Just that he's the 4th string center based on merit and if he wants to change that he has to earn it in camp.
That being said, saying one of the "worst things we can do" is something involving Okafor shows a real lack of perspective.
Worse thing we can do inregards managing Okafor value not the team.
As far as the usage rate goes the reason why you are focusing on it and it's valid I did last year is that when he's not scoring he's hurting you in other areas like rebounding and defense. Plus he's not doing the little things like setting screens and running the floor as well. So he basically has to score at a high usage rate to make up in those areas his rookie year he did that but like many I was hoping for improvement I was hoping for him to build on that instead he regressed.
I don't really think many saw the regression coming. Some didn't like his style but even his detractors were labeling him Lopez or Kanter. He was so far away from that last season.
As far as him being 4th string it's sort of a meaningless label because he's more talented then the other guys other then Embiid obviously. If he stays there because he's still got a bum knee, doesn't compete, or whatever fine but thats on him
I guarantee you can find 5-10 posts from me last summer alone explaining that his usage was going to go down as the talent on the team increased. He was not an effective offensive player his rookie year and the team was a lot better with him on the bench in part because the ball actually moved and they got better shots. If he wants to get off the bench he has to buy into that philosophy and learn to play that way. Holmes gets that which is why despite maybe being less "talented" the team scores more points with him on the court.
Fischella wrote:I think none of you guys that are pro-Embiid no how basketball works today.. is way easier to win it all with Omer Asik than Olajuwon.
Actually if you ask me which Center I want for my perfect championship caliber team, I will chose Asik hands down
HoopsMalone wrote:People really need to take a look and understand how the game has changed. Three simple changes to the game have rendered post play obsolete.
People yearn for this fabled post up big man because they grew up watching Olajuwon kick out to shooters, O'Neal terrorize defenders who couldn't match his stature, etc. They criticize guys like Dwight, Jordan, and Noel for not developing their post moves.
It doesn't strike you as odd that post up big men went the way of the do-do bird?
1) The #1 reason for this is simple. The NBA realized their product was inferior to FIBA. So they scrapped the illegal defense rules to open up the game and kill the soul crushing style of basketball we were subjected to during the turn of the century with the dreaded iso Ball. Sure you got the one off heat check games where Iverson or Vince exploded for 50 and those were exciting. But more often than not you got an 83-74 snoozefest with ball hogs going 7-22 from the floor. And the mercilessly slow and boring post battles between guys like jermaine oneal and tim duncan.
Scrapping illegal defense rendered post play completely inefficient.
Why? One simple reason. The double team can come from anywhere at anytime. And the defender doesn't have to "announce" he's going to double team the ball as he was required by the rules in the previous era.
Just look at how baffling stupid it was to watch guys post up 1 on 1 while other defenders stayed glued to non shooters at the 3 point line. Or sprinted all the way across court to get there in time to get dunked on or take the ball out of the net.
Turnovers are exceedingly high if you attempt to post up with the rule changes.
2) The second change is that guys are fantastic shooters now. 20 years ago you might have one or two guys on the team who could shoot. Half the fans in the crowd could have squared off in a game of horse against your Small Forward. Heck, a lot of point guards didn't even know there was a 3 point line. Magic Johnson was more likely to convert to Judaism than make a jump shot.
With multiple guys shooting 36-40% from 3s why would you EVER want someone chunking up a possession with post moves that are draining the shot clock?
#3) The game is called much tighter these days. When Dwayne wade gets awarded free throws just for farting in traffic but you're allowed to bear hug Dwight Howard around the restricted area why would you EVER choose the guy who shoots 50% at the line to run your offense through?
A good modern big men does the following things well.
1) Ability to defend the PNR. If he can't slide his feet they will just run him through endless pick n rolls and wait for the fireworks. Your defense simply can not rotate fast enough to cover the perimeter. You will get bombed off the court by the Brooklyn Nets for gods sake.
2) Is good in the PNR on offense. If you want your offense to function at high efficiency you better get your point guard moving down hill early in the shot clock. Without effective screens and a credible roll man it is frankly impossible to have a good offense. You want to build your offense around post moves? Great I'll build mine through layups, dunks, open 3s, and free throws. Let's see who wins more games.
3) Rebounds and protects the rim. If your center does not do these things not only will your defense be weak your transition offense will pay dearly as you miss out on opportunities because you have to commit to "team rebounding". The least efficient transition teams still score more points per possession than the most efficient halfcourt offenses.
Having a center with a post game is a Catch 22. It's like having a girlfriend who loves to watch sports. Sure it can be nice on occasion. But how often do you really want her in the room?
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rzzzzz wrote:agiaco wrote:It looks like he's supposed to focus some weight on each leg for a brief moment both for balance and to strengthen. It does look like slo-mo but I have to assume it's deliberately slowed down for the aforementioned reason.
not enough to prove anything, but it does suggest that his gimpy knee is finally healed.
Unbreakable99 wrote:HoopsMalone wrote:People really need to take a look and understand how the game has changed. Three simple changes to the game have rendered post play obsolete.
People yearn for this fabled post up big man because they grew up watching Olajuwon kick out to shooters, O'Neal terrorize defenders who couldn't match his stature, etc. They criticize guys like Dwight, Jordan, and Noel for not developing their post moves.
It doesn't strike you as odd that post up big men went the way of the do-do bird?
1) The #1 reason for this is simple. The NBA realized their product was inferior to FIBA. So they scrapped the illegal defense rules to open up the game and kill the soul crushing style of basketball we were subjected to during the turn of the century with the dreaded iso Ball. Sure you got the one off heat check games where Iverson or Vince exploded for 50 and those were exciting. But more often than not you got an 83-74 snoozefest with ball hogs going 7-22 from the floor. And the mercilessly slow and boring post battles between guys like jermaine oneal and tim duncan.
Scrapping illegal defense rendered post play completely inefficient.
Why? One simple reason. The double team can come from anywhere at anytime. And the defender doesn't have to "announce" he's going to double team the ball as he was required by the rules in the previous era.
Just look at how baffling stupid it was to watch guys post up 1 on 1 while other defenders stayed glued to non shooters at the 3 point line. Or sprinted all the way across court to get there in time to get dunked on or take the ball out of the net.
Turnovers are exceedingly high if you attempt to post up with the rule changes.
2) The second change is that guys are fantastic shooters now. 20 years ago you might have one or two guys on the team who could shoot. Half the fans in the crowd could have squared off in a game of horse against your Small Forward. Heck, a lot of point guards didn't even know there was a 3 point line. Magic Johnson was more likely to convert to Judaism than make a jump shot.
With multiple guys shooting 36-40% from 3s why would you EVER want someone chunking up a possession with post moves that are draining the shot clock?
#3) The game is called much tighter these days. When Dwayne wade gets awarded free throws just for farting in traffic but you're allowed to bear hug Dwight Howard around the restricted area why would you EVER choose the guy who shoots 50% at the line to run your offense through?
A good modern big men does the following things well.
1) Ability to defend the PNR. If he can't slide his feet they will just run him through endless pick n rolls and wait for the fireworks. Your defense simply can not rotate fast enough to cover the perimeter. You will get bombed off the court by the Brooklyn Nets for gods sake.
2) Is good in the PNR on offense. If you want your offense to function at high efficiency you better get your point guard moving down hill early in the shot clock. Without effective screens and a credible roll man it is frankly impossible to have a good offense. You want to build your offense around post moves? Great I'll build mine through layups, dunks, open 3s, and free throws. Let's see who wins more games.
3) Rebounds and protects the rim. If your center does not do these things not only will your defense be weak your transition offense will pay dearly as you miss out on opportunities because you have to commit to "team rebounding". The least efficient transition teams still score more points per possession than the most efficient halfcourt offenses.
Having a center with a post game is a Catch 22. It's like having a girlfriend who loves to watch sports. Sure it can be nice on occasion. But how often do you really want her in the room?
Sent from my SM-N920V using RealGM mobile app
You should post more.
Rastas wrote:Not really - coming from someone with a gimpy knee also it looks like he is being very cautious with that exercise.
rzzzzz wrote:Rastas wrote:Not really - coming from someone with a gimpy knee also it looks like he is being very cautious with that exercise.
i guess i gotta bow to your gimpy experience. but as agiaco commented, it does appear like he's bending and pushing each knee at an excruciating slow speed, designed to maximize strength. for sure, it could be in the regimen because of his gimpy hx, but man i wouldn't be doing that in particular if it was still inflamed. (didn't you let it heal first before taxing yourself?)
Sixerscan wrote:spikeslovechild wrote:Sixerscan wrote:I don't think it's just effort. He has to change from trying to dominate the ball to being a secondary player. Also don't think playing better defense is just trying hard it's a change in mindset.
I didn't say anything about giving him away? Just that he's the 4th string center based on merit and if he wants to change that he has to earn it in camp.
That being said, saying one of the "worst things we can do" is something involving Okafor shows a real lack of perspective.
Worse thing we can do inregards managing Okafor value not the team.
As far as the usage rate goes the reason why you are focusing on it and it's valid I did last year is that when he's not scoring he's hurting you in other areas like rebounding and defense. Plus he's not doing the little things like setting screens and running the floor as well. So he basically has to score at a high usage rate to make up in those areas his rookie year he did that but like many I was hoping for improvement I was hoping for him to build on that instead he regressed.
I don't really think many saw the regression coming. Some didn't like his style but even his detractors were labeling him Lopez or Kanter. He was so far away from that last season.
As far as him being 4th string it's sort of a meaningless label because he's more talented then the other guys other then Embiid obviously. If he stays there because he's still got a bum knee, doesn't compete, or whatever fine but thats on him
I guarantee you can find 5-10 posts from me last summer alone explaining that his usage was going to go down as the talent on the team increased. He was not an effective offensive player his rookie year and the team was a lot better with him on the bench in part because the ball actually moved and they got better shots. If he wants to get off the bench he has to buy into that philosophy and learn to play that way. Holmes gets that which is why despite maybe being less "talented" the team scores more points with him on the court.
Sixerscan wrote:Ingram had a bad year because he wasn't physically ready to play NBA basketball and didn't make shots. He doesn't need to completely change how he plays he just needs to play better.
Sixerscan wrote:Ingram had a bad year because he wasn't physically ready to play NBA basketball and didn't make shots. He doesn't need to completely change how he plays he just needs to play better.
Sixerscan wrote:Ingram had a bad year because he wasn't physically ready to play NBA basketball and didn't make shots. He doesn't need to completely change how he plays he just needs to play better.
Fischella wrote:I think none of you guys that are pro-Embiid no how basketball works today.. is way easier to win it all with Omer Asik than Olajuwon.
Actually if you ask me which Center I want for my perfect championship caliber team, I will chose Asik hands down
Sixerscan wrote:Ingram had a bad year because he wasn't physically ready to play NBA basketball and didn't make shots. He doesn't need to completely change how he plays he just needs to play better.
spikeslovechild wrote:Sixerscan wrote:Ingram had a bad year because he wasn't physically ready to play NBA basketball and didn't make shots. He doesn't need to completely change how he plays he just needs to play better.
This sort of a great discussion point I mean which is worse a player who can't do something right now due to physical limitations (projected at some point) or the player who physically can but won't.
I honestly think Okafor will never be an ideal C for the modern NBA. He just won't. He doesn't need to change his game drastically from where it was his rookie year towards the end prior to getting injured in order to be useful as an NBA player. His little shotput shot was falling and he even had a J. I'm less concerned about his offense.
What I'm more concerned about is as his usage goes down because it will can he do those other things. Rebounding. Screens. Interior defense. Run the floor. The only thing I sort of cut him some slack for his defense he entered the NBA having those questions. The rest really is effort. He has to want to compete for rebounds. It sort of sad that the best we hope for is he boxes out his man because dude is massive. He should be a 10 rebound a game guy easy. His wingspan size and length especially against backups but he wasn't last year and he had that video that was seen around the NBA. Running the floor is the same thing I sort of gave him a little pass making the transition to the NBA all College players wear down at some point but Okafor gets tired too easy. He needs to work on his cardo and give max effort. Watching saric struggle early what sort of stood out to me is even when his shot wasn't going he ran the floor. He competed on the glass and it wasn't because his tank was full noone played more games then Saric heading into the year.
The same goes for screens. Can't have a guy who is worried about touches and just wants to park himself in the post and wait for the ball. He has to move on offense. I do think him slimming down is encouraging but he can change his body type all he wants but if that isn't coupled with a change in attitude related to his compete level none of it matters.