Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll

[FreesFro]

:(

Doesn't look like it.



You're confident that Simmons can finish with his left hand even though out of all his one handed attempts, 95% of them were with his right hand? Even though when he drives left, jumps off his right foot, and the defender is on his right hand, thus all signs say "finish with your left!", he still forces up a right handed layup/floater? How is that nitpicking? It's pretty common for prospects to get called out for having a weak hand. It just so happens that in this case Simmons shoots jumpshots with that weak hand, which is the strange part. But it's pretty clear that as of now he has no confidence at all in finishing with his left. It's something he'll need to work on at the next level because those awkward right handed shots in situations where he should be finishing with his left won't be as effective against NBA defenders.

I'm not worried about it as I mentioned earlier. It's crazy the amount of over-analyzing that goes on about college freshmen. None of these kids are finished products and they all have to work on their games. They all have areas to improve on.

Also, there's a toothpick who played at Duke last year who couldn't finish at the rim with either his left or right hand.

"Fundamentally, Wiggins still has to refine and polish up his skills. He's a capable shooter, but not a consistent one. He has to improve his handle in traffic, specifically his left hand."

"While a little bit of improvement in Kentucky's floor spacing could have opened up the paint a little bit more for Randle and helped improve this number some, further refinement of his skills and becoming more comfortable using his right hand will be needed in the future as well."

"Russell also doesn’t use his right hand very much, either when finishing at the rim or attacking the basket off the dribble. When he does drive right, it’s almost always to set up a crossover back to his dominant left, which makes him somewhat predictable. He avoids using his right hand to finish at the rim at almost all costs, which plays a part in his inefficiency when doing so."

Ease up guys! What's with all the nitpicking and over-analyzing? These are college freshman. They all have areas to improve on. There's no need to point out any of their weaknesses.

Oh, stop dude. Of course you can point out their weaknesses. I've read 90+ pages of posts tearing apart Ben. It gets a bit old, but what can you do. My point being is who can turn this weaknesses into strengths.

[76ciology]

It's hard to discount Simmons' production in transition when one of the dude's strengths is he can rebound, start and finish the break. His play in the open court is a big part of his game.

Thus he reminds me of John Wall. They need to play at breakneck speed with average outside shot, thus leading to a not so efficient overall game (high TO),specially on halfcourt.

I expect Simmons to play bullyball and heavy mod range game on halfcourt. LBJ is a freight train so he's probably the only guy who can do that at will. You look at other elite wings like KD, George or Kawhi, and you'll see that it's difficult to play that kind of game unless you are as gifted as LBJ.

He'll operate out of the high post where he can use his quickness and passing ability.

Of course okafor is also most effective out of the high post which is another reason to get rid of him.

It reminds me of how LBJ played against Raps down the stretch in game 6-7. He would get close to his defender, basically at the high post position. Then he either plays as a passer with movements at the weakside (got RJ into an easy basket and etc.), if not he will then drive to the rim while using his off hand to block the defender.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/pjeffersonlim/status/738044291423997954[/tweet]

..and also is the way the non-efficient wings like Derozan and Wiggins use to score. But then Simmons is more comparable to LBJ because of their passing game.

[Agnostifarian]

"Fundamentally, Wiggins still has to refine and polish up his skills. He's a capable shooter, but not a consistent one. He has to improve his handle in traffic, specifically his left hand."

"While a little bit of improvement in Kentucky's floor spacing could have opened up the paint a little bit more for Randle and helped improve this number some, further refinement of his skills and becoming more comfortable using his right hand will be needed in the future as well."

"Russell also doesn’t use his right hand very much, either when finishing at the rim or attacking the basket off the dribble. When he does drive right, it’s almost always to set up a crossover back to his dominant left, which makes him somewhat predictable. He avoids using his right hand to finish at the rim at almost all costs, which plays a part in his inefficiency when doing so."

Ease up guys! What's with all the nitpicking and over-analyzing? These are college freshman. They all have areas to improve on. There's no need to point out any of their weaknesses.

I would love to see Ingram's left hand usage %. I feel like he was comfortable using either hand to finish, but just struggled with finishing through contact.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/sam_vecenie/status/737900812286971904[/tweet]

The thing with Ingram is he doesn't shy away from contact. Once he gets stronger you won't doubt whether he can be a good finisher because he has freakish length, unlike DLO.

Obviously, the best way to gauge a prospect is to watch plenty of game film. This is very time consuming and not possible for most people with an actual life. One little exercise I find useful is to watch highlight videos and count the number of times the prospect drives right or left and watch for the hand he uses to finish. Ingram is very comfortable driving left and using his left hand around the rim--much moreso than Ben Simmons or ALO.

[76ciology]

[instagram][/instagram]

Here are Simmons' measurements. Since its in shoes that means his real height is about 6'9. Not bad.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/738041668860059648[/tweet]

Among pfs drafted in the top 15:

Above average height and weight, wing is an inch below, reach is exactly average.

Obviously well above average for everything at the 3.

Hopefully people can stop citing those 8'7" reach numbers now.

That's why I like him at 3 than as a 4. But then as a 3, shooting then becomes more important than at 4.

[Sixerscan]

Thus he reminds me of John Wall. They need to play at breakneck speed with average outside shot, thus leading to a not so efficient overall game (high TO),specially on halfcourt.

I expect Simmons to play bullyball and heavy mod range game on halfcourt. LBJ is a freight train so he's probably the only guy who can do that at will. You look at other elite wings like KD, George or Kawhi, and you'll see that it's difficult to play that kind of game unless you are as gifted as LBJ.

He'll operate out of the high post where he can use his quickness and passing ability.

Of course okafor is also most effective out of the high post which is another reason to get rid of him.

It reminds me of how LBJ played against Raps down the stretch in game 6-7. He would get close to his defender, basically at the high post position. Then he either plays as a passer with movements at the weakside (got RJ into an easy basket and etc.), if not he will then drive to the rim while using his off hand to block the defender.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/pjeffersonlim/status/738044291423997954[/tweet]

..and also is the way the non-efficient wings like Derozan and Wiggins use to score. But then Simmons is more comparable to LBJ because of their passing game.

Derozen and especially Wiggins more operate on the wing than the high post. And as you say they are more looking for their shot.

[FreesFro]

I would not characterize Simmons' freshman season as excellent. In fact, I'd call it very disappointing for many reasons but in particular, (1) he did not elevate his team's play or their success, (2) he found no way to exploit having defenders sag off of him, (3) he quit on his team and (4) he came very close to academic ineligibility.

Here's why I like Ingram #1.

(1) Ingram has elite length for a SG or SF. Only KD and Giannis are longer on the perimeter. Ingram has a decided length advantage over Wiggins.

(2) I like two way players. I like guys who can score on three levels on offense and I like guys who can switch on defense.

(3) I like guys who can excel at PNR on both ends. Ingram's handle and shooting paired with Embiid could become the most devastating offensive duo in a very long time.

(4) Ingram provides spacing. He must be guarded tightly on the perimeter. Hand checking rules will help his scoring efficiency because defenders are going to lunge and grab at him constantly.

(5) Ingram was challenged by a HOF Coach K who put the ball in Ingram's hands (25.6% USG) and trusted him (11.3% TOV).

(6) Ingram played heavy minutes in a short rotation and did not get into foul trouble.

(7) Ingram's game improved as the season went on and he is 14 months younger than Ben Simmons.

(8) Ingram was never accused of quitting.

(9) Ingram is on the record as being ready to play for whatever team drafts him.

(10) Coach K said not to be misled by Ingram's skinny frame. He is strong and aggressive. He will easily gain 25 lbs of muscle over his rookie contract.

Remember, we aren't drafting these guys for what they are right now; we are drafting them for what they will become after spending 6,000 minutes playing in the NBA. IMO, Ingram is a surefire all star when he's 22 year's old and 220 lbs.

Good reasoning. Good post. I still disagree though.

Thank you. I actually like Ben Simmons a great deal. People are surely sick of me saying I want both players but that is my number one best hope.

Here's my main question for Ben Simmons: What will he do when he has the ball in his hands with 15 seconds left on the clock and we're down by two points? Barkley was a great player for 47.5 minutes but he was never a threat from the perimeter and we lost a ton of important games because of it. Barkley is the worst 3 point shooter in the history of the NBA with at least 1,000 attempts. Ben is a threat to eclipse Charles on that dubious front.

I appreciate your tolerance and respect your deference to Ben.

I appreciate the stats and other opinions but to state that Ben is a threat to be the worst 3 point shooter in NBA history with at least a 1000 attempts is again hyperbole at its finest.

[Ericb5]

Here are Simmons' measurements. Since its in shoes that means his real height is about 6'9. Not bad.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/738041668860059648[/tweet]

That wingspan and reach if legit(I REALLY only ever trust the combine with this stuff) should put to bed the narrative of Simmons being short armed, or undersized. He isn't elite in those areas, but he is adequate for the 4 spot.

[Sixerscan]

Here are Simmons' measurements. Since its in shoes that means his real height is about 6'9. Not bad.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/738041668860059648[/tweet]

Among pfs drafted in the top 15:

Above average height and weight, wing is an inch below, reach is exactly average.

Obviously well above average for everything at the 3.

Hopefully people can stop citing those 8'7" reach numbers now.

That's why I like him at 3 than as a 4. But then as a 3, shooting then becomes more important than at 4.

Yeah I mean I would prefer he be able to play the 3 if for no reason other than giving us options but this makes me comfortable that he can handle the 4. Remember this isn't all 4s it's 4s drafted in the top 15. Among all 4s he compares even better.

[76ciology]

Among pfs drafted in the top 15:

Above average height and weight, wing is an inch below, reach is exactly average.

Obviously well above average for everything at the 3.

Hopefully people can stop citing those 8'7" reach numbers now.

That's why I like him at 3 than as a 4. But then as a 3, shooting then becomes more important than at 4.

Yeah I mean I would prefer he be able to play the 3 if for no reason other than giving us options but this makes me comfortable that he can handle the 4. Remember this isn't all 4s it's 4s drafted in the top 15. Among all 4s he compares even better.

His height and reach is similar to Bosh. And on court, he kinda look like Bosh.

[FreesFro]

I would love to see Ingram's left hand usage %. I feel like he was comfortable using either hand to finish, but just struggled with finishing through contact.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/sam_vecenie/status/737900812286971904[/tweet]

The thing with Ingram is he doesn't shy away from contact. Once he gets stronger you won't doubt whether he can be a good finisher because he has freakish length, unlike DLO.

Obviously, the best way to gauge a prospect is to watch plenty of game film. This is very time consuming and not possible for most people with an actual life. One little exercise I find useful is to watch highlight videos and count the number of times the prospect drives right or left and watch for the hand he uses to finish. Ingram is very comfortable driving left and using his left hand around the rim--much moreso than Ben Simmons or ALO.

That's great. He is below average at finishing with not only his right hand, but his left. Awesome.

[Sundown]

All I really care about is if Simmons can defend the 3. You can play him almost 1 to 5 on the offensive side depending on the rest of the players in the lineup. For instance, if he can defend the 3 then you probably can play him with Saric. Saric probably needs to defend the 4, but he can probably play the 3 on offense. Gives you a lot of flexibility if Simmons can defend multiple positions.

[76ciology]

10.25 hand length for simmons is elite btw. That's one elite measurement from him and probably the bulk of his 6 pack abs.

[NJ SixerFan]

I'd love to get Simmons in a gym and see what he looks like shooting jumpers with his right hand

[Unbreakable99]

Can anyone compare these tests to other top prospects in recent years?

[tweet]https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/738046985534574592[/tweet]

[76ciology]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/738046985534574592[/tweet]

[phiphan]

Can anyone compare these tests to other top prospects in recent years?

[tweet]https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/738046985534574592[/tweet]

Lane agility at this year's combine:

Sheldon McClellan SG 10.45
Denzel Valentine SG-SF 10.51
Melo Trimble PG 10.57
Troy Williams SF 10.72
Tyler Ulis PG 10.80
Marcus Paige PG 10.82
Malik Newman SG 10.88
Taurean Prince SF 10.96
Patrick McCaw PG-SG 11.01
Thon Maker PF 11.15

[76ciology]

Can anyone compare these tests to other top prospects in recent years?

[tweet]https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/738046985534574592[/tweet]

Sprint and agility are elite for SF. So that would cover quickness issue I guess.

Height&reach and vert is very similar to Chris bosh. He even looked the same length on court.

[Unbreakable99]

Can anyone compare these tests to other top prospects in recent years?

[tweet]https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/738046985534574592[/tweet]

Lane agility at this year's combine:

Sheldon McClellan SG 10.45
Denzel Valentine SG-SF 10.51
Melo Trimble PG 10.57
Troy Williams SF 10.72
Tyler Ulis PG 10.80
Marcus Paige PG 10.82
Malik Newman SG 10.88
Taurean Prince SF 10.96
Patrick McCaw PG-SG 11.01
Thon Maker PF 11.15

Thanks. What about the other tests? What were Ingram's?

[sixerswillrule]

Here are Simmons' measurements. Since its in shoes that means his real height is about 6'9. Not bad.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/738041668860059648[/tweet]

That wingspan and reach if legit(I REALLY only ever trust the combine with this stuff) should put to bed the narrative of Simmons being short armed, or undersized. He isn't elite in those areas, but he is adequate for the 4 spot.

I never believed the 8'7" reach listing. Clearly something was wrong there as that would be one of the smallest height to reach differentials in the entire combine database. 8"11 sounds about right.

[Negrodamus]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/sam_vecenie/status/737900812286971904[/tweet]

The thing with Ingram is he doesn't shy away from contact. Once he gets stronger you won't doubt whether he can be a good finisher because he has freakish length, unlike DLO.

Obviously, the best way to gauge a prospect is to watch plenty of game film. This is very time consuming and not possible for most people with an actual life. One little exercise I find useful is to watch highlight videos and count the number of times the prospect drives right or left and watch for the hand he uses to finish. Ingram is very comfortable driving left and using his left hand around the rim--much moreso than Ben Simmons or ALO.

That's great. He is below average at finishing with not only his right hand, but his left. Awesome.

And he'll never get better at it... Ever.

I wonder if it's better to be struggling to finish due to being 18 and not physically ready but willing to go strong with either hand than to be afraid of finishing with the left hand all together.

It's kinda like having a high FG % but being afraid of shooting jump shots or taking many and just being a 40% shooter. All interesting questions.