Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll

[FreesFro]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/738057226892509184[/tweet]

The defender also defends like Simmons. FWIW

The defender was also too big and too strong for Ingram to finish at the rim.

[sixerswillrule]

Stroke look fine to me..Here's to our new SMALL FORWARD
[tweet]https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/738031922052497408[/tweet]

Not if our power forward is Okafor or Noel.

[76ciology]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/738057226892509184[/tweet]

The defender also defends like Simmons. FWIW

The defender was also too big and too strong for Ingram to finish at the rim.

The defender is not a primadona and doesn't mind to play for any team. I can tell by the way he wore his shirt. He's a simple guy.

[ET Da Gawd]

Stroke look fine to me..Here's to our new SMALL FORWARD
[tweet]https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/738031922052497408[/tweet]

Not if our power forward is Okafor or Noel.

Beg to differ, I hope you don't think we'll win a championship trying to play like GSW without any GSW players. You build according to your roster, aint no chip happening next year, the year after or the year after anyways.

[Negrodamus]

Ben working on his Steph Curry shot. Nice form. He also changed to the right side here.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BGHnn53hYlx/?taken-by=bensimmons25

(instagram tag isn't working)

[sixerswillrule]

Stroke look fine to me..Here's to our new SMALL FORWARD
[tweet]https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/738031922052497408[/tweet]

Not if our power forward is Okafor or Noel.

Beg to differ, I hope you don't think we'll win a championship trying to play like GSW without any GSW players. You build according to your roster, aint no chip happening next year, the year after or the year after anyways.

You build a team of complementary players. If that's not on the roster then you make changes to the roster. You're right, we're not winning anytime soon so I wouldn't be against seeing a frontcourt of Simmons and two of our big men short term to see if it could work. I just don't think it will work.

[Kolkmania]

Those agility numbers are unreal. If he's devoted enough, defending SF's shouldn't be a problem.

[Sixerscan]

Stroke look fine to me..Here's to our new SMALL FORWARD
[tweet]https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/738031922052497408[/tweet]

Not if our power forward is Okafor or Noel.

Beg to differ, I hope you don't think we'll win a championship trying to play like GSW without any GSW players. You build according to your roster, aint no chip happening next year, the year after or the year after anyways.

Embiid is well above average height and length for a center and Simmons is average height and length for a power forward. Not sure how that front court equals small ball...

[Ericb5]

These agility tests make give me pause. I don't know if I buy them. It's like when a football prospect runs a faster 40 time on his pro day than the combine. I want to see footage of this and I want it to be timed by people to see if these times are true. This seems too good to be true.

Yeah I wouldn't put too much weight on them. That being said its not like him being fast and athletic should be a shock to anyone that's watched him play.

These types of unofficial measurements, and the skepticism that they produce show why the NBA needs to mandate measurements at the combine as part of the draft eligibility requirements.

If for whatever reason the prospect can't do the testing at the combine, they would then have to do it at an officially sanctioned place with officially sanctioned standards or they are ineligible for the draft.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sixerscan]

These agility tests make give me pause. I don't know if I buy them. It's like when a football prospect runs a faster 40 time on his pro day than the combine. I want to see footage of this and I want it to be timed by people to see if these times are true. This seems too good to be true.

Yeah I wouldn't put too much weight on them. That being said its not like him being fast and athletic should be a shock to anyone that's watched him play.

These types of unofficial measurements, and the skepticism that they produce show why the NBA needs to mandate measurements at the combine as part of the draft eligibility requirements.

If for whatever reason the prospect can't do the testing at the combine, they would then have to do it at an officially sanctioned place with officially sanctioned standards or they are ineligible for the draft.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't really see the point of pretending like anyone cares all that much about Ben Simmons' cone drill to the point that you're banning him from the league lol. The guys that skip the combine for the most part skip it for a reason, teams are already convinced of their talent. And if someone like d Murray skips it just means that he's going to have to do the same drill for everyone he works out with or he'll fall in the draft.

The combine has plenty of issues with it too.

Regardless I think putting too much emphasis on how these guys do in drills they have specifically trained for is bad. You have game tape watch it.

[Unbreakable99]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/738066814308130816[/tweet]

[Ericb5]

Yeah I wouldn't put too much weight on them. That being said its not like him being fast and athletic should be a shock to anyone that's watched him play.

These types of unofficial measurements, and the skepticism that they produce show why the NBA needs to mandate measurements at the combine as part of the draft eligibility requirements.

If for whatever reason the prospect can't do the testing at the combine, they would then have to do it at an officially sanctioned place with officially sanctioned standards or they are ineligible for the draft.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't really see the point of pretending like anyone cares all that much about Ben Simmons' cone drill to the point that you're banning him from the league lol. The guys that skip the combine for the most part skip it for a reason, teams are already convinced of their talent. And if someone like d Murray skips it just means that he's going to have to do the same drill for everyone he works out with or he'll fall in the draft.

The combine has plenty of issues with it too.

Regardless I think putting too much emphasis on how these guys do in drills they have specifically trained for is bad. You have game tape watch it.

It sounds weird to say that I would be banning him for not doing it. It would be more like I would be requiring it, as historically people considered it to be before. It is only in the last few years that players have been skipping out on their measurements.

I think that accurate measurements are as important as accurate financial records are to companies. If the measurements are in question them the fundamental metrics that all prospects are evaluated with are in question.

We can't allow players to control their measurements and therefore obscure or play up important facts about them.

I realize that they can have a medical exemption if they are injured at the time, but in cases like with Simmons here today, he is obviously working out and healthy enough to perform the drills. I just want some controls put around the process.

Spencer Hawes should not be able to wear shoes that add 2 inches to his height.

Players should not be able to sandbag the reach measurement to inflate their vertical jump.

These are fraudulent practices.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Agnostifarian]

Good reasoning. Good post. I still disagree though.

Thank you. I actually like Ben Simmons a great deal. People are surely sick of me saying I want both players but that is my number one best hope.

Here's my main question for Ben Simmons: What will he do when he has the ball in his hands with 15 seconds left on the clock and we're down by two points? Barkley was a great player for 47.5 minutes but he was never a threat from the perimeter and we lost a ton of important games because of it. Barkley is the worst 3 point shooter in the history of the NBA with at least 1,000 attempts. Ben is a threat to eclipse Charles on that dubious front.

I appreciate your tolerance and respect your deference to Ben.

I appreciate the stats and other opinions but to state that Ben is a threat to be the worst 3 point shooter in NBA history with at least a 1000 attempts is again hyperbole at its finest.

Let's see. So Ben attempted three, 3PtShots in 33 NCAA games. At that rate (0.091/game), It will take him 11,000 NBA games to qualify for this list... Pretty sure Ben won't play for 135 years. You're right. Ben won't qualify for the list. That is hyperbole at its finest!

[Sixerscan]

These types of unofficial measurements, and the skepticism that they produce show why the NBA needs to mandate measurements at the combine as part of the draft eligibility requirements.

If for whatever reason the prospect can't do the testing at the combine, they would then have to do it at an officially sanctioned place with officially sanctioned standards or they are ineligible for the draft.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't really see the point of pretending like anyone cares all that much about Ben Simmons' cone drill to the point that you're banning him from the league lol. The guys that skip the combine for the most part skip it for a reason, teams are already convinced of their talent. And if someone like d Murray skips it just means that he's going to have to do the same drill for everyone he works out with or he'll fall in the draft.

The combine has plenty of issues with it too.

Regardless I think putting too much emphasis on how these guys do in drills they have specifically trained for is bad. You have game tape watch it.

It sounds weird to say that I would be banning him for not doing it. It would be more like I would be requiring it, as historically people considered it to be before. It is only in the last few years that players have been skipping out on their measurements.

I think that accurate measurements are as important as accurate financial records are to companies. If the measurements are in question them the fundamental metrics that all prospects are evaluated with are in question.

We can't allow players to control their measurements and therefore obscure or play up important facts about them.

I realize that they can have a medical exemption if they are injured at the time, but in cases like with Simmons here today, he is obviously working out and healthy enough to perform the drills. I just want some controls put around the process.

Spencer Hawes should not be able to wear shoes that add 2 inches to his height.

Players should not be able to sandbag the reach measurement to inflate their vertical jump.

These are fraudulent practices.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I mean it seems like these players called the teams' bluffs. If is information was really that important than they wouldn't be drafted. Clearly teams can find other ways to value these guys. There's a difference between wanting to get extra info and it actually being necessary.

Many companies don't disclose financial records beyond what is required by the government. And present their companies in as positive a light as possible without violating the law. Good luck getting the government to do the same with nba prospects' cone drills. At the end of the day were talking about guys' bodies here.

I don't see how it's different from a CEO candidate refusing to give a company his college gpa or something. When you are in demand you get to call the shots a little bit.

The combine completely screwed up the standing reaches btw.

[Kobblehead]

Here's why I like Ingram #1.

(1) Ingram has elite length for a SG or SF. Only KD and Giannis are longer on the perimeter. Ingram has a decided length advantage over Wiggins.
Acceptable point.

(2) I like two way players. I like guys who can score on three levels on offense and I like guys who can switch on defense.
Unacceptable point. Ingram doesn't play defense, he's not a 2-way player. Nor does he score on all three levels. He can't finish at the rim.

(3) I like guys who can excel at PNR on both ends. Ingram's handle and shooting paired with Embiid could become the most devastating offensive duo in a very long time.
Borderline point. Do we know if Ingram will be able to run the pick and roll at the next level? His dribble is very high and deliberate. I could see him getting plucked routinely. He's not ideal as a primary ball handler. He's a catch and shoot guy.

(4) Ingram provides spacing. He must be guarded tightly on the perimeter. Hand checking rules will help his scoring efficiency because defenders are going to lunge and grab at him constantly.
Acceptable point.

(5) Ingram was challenged by a HOF Coach K who put the ball in Ingram's hands (25.6% USG) and trusted him (11.3% TOV).
Unacceptable point. Grayson Allen was Duke's primary ball handler and lead decision maker. Ingram's lack or turnovers was because he wasn't creating anything for himself or his teammates. He was a catch and shoot guy.

(6) Ingram played heavy minutes in a short rotation and did not get into foul trouble.
Unacceptable point. That's because he didn't defend at all (2.9) DBPM.

(7) Ingram's game improved as the season went on and he is 14 months younger than Ben Simmons.
Unacceptable point. It's just a blanket statement without real truth to it. He was pretty terrible in a 6 games stretch from the end of February to the first week of March. Was also pretty suspect in a conference tourney game against Notre Dame. That's a questionable performance in 7 of the final 11 games. So where did this narrative come from? The age thing, to me, is inconsequential when we're talking about 2 freshman. It's not like we're talking about an upperclassman and a first year player.

(8) Ingram was never accused of quitting.
Acceptable point.

(9) Ingram is on the record as being ready to play for whatever team drafts him.
Dion Waiters in on record saying he wants to play for the Sixers. Should we bypass a better player to sign him?

(10) Coach K said not to be misled by Ingram's skinny frame. He is strong and aggressive. He will easily gain 25 lbs of muscle over his rookie contract.
That's kind of him to say, but we see direct evidence of his lack of strength hindering his game with his inability to finish at the rim. And there's nothing easy about an ectomorph putting on weight.


Remember, we aren't drafting these guys for what they are right now; we are drafting them for what they will become after spending 6,000 minutes playing in the NBA.
That's right in a sense, but you also can't be reckless and irresponsible and draft a guy solely off of theoretical projection. There has to be a high degree of demonstrated excellence. Brandon Ingram did not give you that. Ben Simmons sure as hell did. Can you imagine what he's going to look like by year 4?

IMO, Ingram is a surefire all star when he's 22 year's old and 220 lbs.
Or he could just be a solid catch and shoot player that plays sub-par to average defense. The kind of guy you can sign for the MLE.

[Negrodamus]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk6xhNXpiUY&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

Maybe we should just sign this guy. Pretty much does the same things as Simmons.

[Ericb5]

I don't really see the point of pretending like anyone cares all that much about Ben Simmons' cone drill to the point that you're banning him from the league lol. The guys that skip the combine for the most part skip it for a reason, teams are already convinced of their talent. And if someone like d Murray skips it just means that he's going to have to do the same drill for everyone he works out with or he'll fall in the draft.

The combine has plenty of issues with it too.

Regardless I think putting too much emphasis on how these guys do in drills they have specifically trained for is bad. You have game tape watch it.

It sounds weird to say that I would be banning him for not doing it. It would be more like I would be requiring it, as historically people considered it to be before. It is only in the last few years that players have been skipping out on their measurements.

I think that accurate measurements are as important as accurate financial records are to companies. If the measurements are in question them the fundamental metrics that all prospects are evaluated with are in question.

We can't allow players to control their measurements and therefore obscure or play up important facts about them.

I realize that they can have a medical exemption if they are injured at the time, but in cases like with Simmons here today, he is obviously working out and healthy enough to perform the drills. I just want some controls put around the process.

Spencer Hawes should not be able to wear shoes that add 2 inches to his height.

Players should not be able to sandbag the reach measurement to inflate their vertical jump.

These are fraudulent practices.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I mean it seems like these players called the teams' bluffs. If is information was really that important than they wouldn't be drafted. Clearly teams can find other ways to value these guys. There's a difference between wanting to get extra info and it actually being necessary.

Many companies don't disclose financial records beyond what is required by the government. And present their companies in as positive a light as possible without violating the law. Good luck getting the government to do the same with nba prospects' cone drills. At the end of the day were talking about guys' bodies here.

I don't see how it's different from a CEO candidate refusing to give a company his college gpa or something. When you are in demand you get to call the shots a little bit.

The combine completely screwed up the standing reaches btw.

I'm just saying that we should require them to be measured and checked out. That seems to be a pretty simple thing to do, and to implement.

If you allow them to not do that, then you are basically saying that it doesn't matter. The reason that the athletes put out this information from other venues is because it DOES matter. We are just allowing them to do so in a non controlled, or standardized way which leads to the cheaters cheating. Not all of them are cheating obviously, but since some of them clearly are, it makes you lose confidence in the process as a whole.

It would be like allowing guys to self report the size of their penises, and then use that data to come up with the averages used to make condoms. People would be squeezing an inch or two into the data here and there.

[Agnostifarian]

Here's why I like Ingram #1.

(1) Ingram has elite length for a SG or SF. Only KD and Giannis are longer on the perimeter. Ingram has a decided length advantage over Wiggins.
Acceptable point.

(2) I like two way players. I like guys who can score on three levels on offense and I like guys who can switch on defense.
Unacceptable point. Ingram doesn't play defense, he's not a 2-way player. Nor does he score on all three levels. He can't finish at the rim.

(3) I like guys who can excel at PNR on both ends. Ingram's handle and shooting paired with Embiid could become the most devastating offensive duo in a very long time.
Borderline point. Do we know if Ingram will be able to run the pick and roll at the next level? His dribble is very high and deliberate. I could see him getting plucked routinely. He's not ideal as a primary ball handler. He's a catch and shoot guy.

(4) Ingram provides spacing. He must be guarded tightly on the perimeter. Hand checking rules will help his scoring efficiency because defenders are going to lunge and grab at him constantly.
Acceptable point.

(5) Ingram was challenged by a HOF Coach K who put the ball in Ingram's hands (25.6% USG) and trusted him (11.3% TOV).
Unacceptable point. Grayson Allen was Duke's primary ball handler and lead decision maker. Ingram's lack or turnovers was because he wasn't creating anything for himself or his teammates. He was a catch and shoot guy.

(6) Ingram played heavy minutes in a short rotation and did not get into foul trouble.
Unacceptable point. That's because he didn't defend at all (2.9) DBPM.

(7) Ingram's game improved as the season went on and he is 14 months younger than Ben Simmons.
Unacceptable point. It's just a blanket statement without real truth to it. He was pretty terrible in a 6 games stretch from the end of February to the first week of March. Was also pretty suspect in a conference tourney game against Notre Dame. That's a questionable performance in 7 of the final 11 games. So where did this narrative come from? The age thing, to me, is inconsequential when we're talking about 2 freshman. It's not like we're talking about an upperclassman and a first year player.

(8) Ingram was never accused of quitting.
Acceptable point.

(9) Ingram is on the record as being ready to play for whatever team drafts him.
Dion Waiters in on record saying he wants to play for the Sixers. Should we bypass a better player to sign him?

(10) Coach K said not to be misled by Ingram's skinny frame. He is strong and aggressive. He will easily gain 25 lbs of muscle over his rookie contract.
That's kind of him to say, but we see direct evidence of his lack of strength hindering his game with his inability to finish at the rim. And there's nothing easy about an ectomorph putting on weight.


Remember, we aren't drafting these guys for what they are right now; we are drafting them for what they will become after spending 6,000 minutes playing in the NBA.
That's right in a sense, but you also can't be reckless and irresponsible and draft a guy solely off of theoretical projection. There has to be a high degree of demonstrated excellence. Brandon Ingram did not give you that. Ben Simmons sure as hell did. Can you imagine what he's going to look like by year 4?

IMO, Ingram is a surefire all star when he's 22 year's old and 220 lbs.
Or he could just be a solid catch and shoot player that plays sub-par to average defense. The kind of guy you can sign for the MLE.

I am talking about this player. Add context to your narrative. He was fortunate to play with another star college player. Ingram played as he was coached. If you look at this kid and conclude that he's not particularly special, or worse, then we just disagree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXGf2eF3fZA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXGf2eF3fZA

[Sixerscan]

It sounds weird to say that I would be banning him for not doing it. It would be more like I would be requiring it, as historically people considered it to be before. It is only in the last few years that players have been skipping out on their measurements.

I think that accurate measurements are as important as accurate financial records are to companies. If the measurements are in question them the fundamental metrics that all prospects are evaluated with are in question.

We can't allow players to control their measurements and therefore obscure or play up important facts about them.

I realize that they can have a medical exemption if they are injured at the time, but in cases like with Simmons here today, he is obviously working out and healthy enough to perform the drills. I just want some controls put around the process.

Spencer Hawes should not be able to wear shoes that add 2 inches to his height.

Players should not be able to sandbag the reach measurement to inflate their vertical jump.

These are fraudulent practices.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I mean it seems like these players called the teams' bluffs. If is information was really that important than they wouldn't be drafted. Clearly teams can find other ways to value these guys. There's a difference between wanting to get extra info and it actually being necessary.

Many companies don't disclose financial records beyond what is required by the government. And present their companies in as positive a light as possible without violating the law. Good luck getting the government to do the same with nba prospects' cone drills. At the end of the day were talking about guys' bodies here.

I don't see how it's different from a CEO candidate refusing to give a company his college gpa or something. When you are in demand you get to call the shots a little bit.

The combine completely screwed up the standing reaches btw.

I'm just saying that we should require them to be measured and checked out. That seems to be a pretty simple thing to do, and to implement.

If you allow them to not do that, then you are basically saying that it doesn't matter. The reason that the athletes put out this information from other venues is because it DOES matter. We are just allowing them to do so in a non controlled, or standardized way which leads to the cheaters cheating. Not all of them are cheating obviously, but since some of them clearly are, it makes you lose confidence in the process as a whole.

It would be like allowing guys to self report the size of their penises, and then use that data to come up with the averages used to make condoms. People would be squeezing an inch or two into the data here and there.

My point is that Its not so important that anyone wants to ban guys from the league just because they refuse to go to the combine. if you're not banning them for refusing, then what does the requirement really mean?

[Kobblehead]

Brandon Ingram's inclusion in this discussion is a narrative. One that, thankfully, the Colangelo's aren't buying for a second. I'll root for him as an off-ball wing for Jordan Clarkson and D'Angelo Russell, but I don't expect him to amount to anything near some of these overly optimistic projections of him.

To me, Brandon Ingram isn't even in the stratosphere for this #1 pick. If he develops into a perennial all-star and alpha scorer, I'll eat my words. I have no problem being wrong on a guy that didn't demonstrate excellence. I'll just chalk up the L and keep it moving.