Ben Simmons Trade Thread Part 4

[erving4ever]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Thinking about one of the many forgotten subplots of the burner account saga: Embiid getting repeatedly disparaged to prop up Simmons (who was drafted by Colangelo) <a href="https://t.co/b7ob5Ryddd">pic.twitter.com/b7ob5Ryddd</a></p>&mdash; Kyle Neubeck (@KyleNeubeck) <a href="

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?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 22, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[DCasey91]

Start with Rubio and go from there.

Build around Embiid.

Playmaking PG that shoots and defends (doesn’t have to be great just capable).

Scoring wing or SG as the 1st/2nd option.

2 wings (1 is a switch 3/4)

Easy enough.

[GoSixersBro]

Slightly off-topic, but had anyone else before ever pondered whether being in Joel's shadow bothered Ben?

I stand by my post before saying Ben does not love basketball, but in my opinion, it could still have secretly bothered Ben that Joel was our leader, fan-favorite, go-to-guy, etc.

I always thought to myself over the past few seasons, Ben is Mr. Hollywood, or wants to be at least. Being the #2 or #3 guy on a team in ... Philadelphia, is not how he probably envisioned his pro basketball dream.

[Stanford]

Slightly off-topic, but had anyone else before ever pondered whether being in Joel's shadow bothered Ben?

That was the popular hypothesis among the Bill Simmons types for years. Two alpha males that want their own team can't coexist. Those people are taking a victory lap now.

But I hope we can all agree that those people were wrong. Ben is not an alpha male, he doesn't want his own team, he doesn't want to be seen or heard by anyone. His problem here was that he couldn't hide behind Joel, from the fans, from the media, from criticism. Criticism like, "when are you going to shoot the ball," and "hey, you should think about getting better at basketball."

Ben's problem was that Joel's shadow wasn't large enough.

[Sixerscan]

Slightly off-topic, but had anyone else before ever pondered whether being in Joel's shadow bothered Ben?

That was the popular hypothesis among the Bill Simmons types for years. Two alpha males that want their own team can't coexist. Those people are taking a victory lap now.

But I hope we can all agree that those people were wrong. Ben is not an alpha male, he doesn't want his own team, he doesn't want to be seen or heard by anyone. His problem here was that he couldn't hide behind Joel, from the fans, from the media, from criticism. Criticism like, "when are you going to shoot the ball," and "hey, you should think about getting better at basketball."

Ben's problem was that Joel's shadow wasn't large enough.

I agree it seems like the real issue is he desperately does not want to be criticized or embarrassed, but that for me leads to the idea that it also wouldn’t shock me if Ben has convinced himself that the issue here is Joel posting up so much holds back his offensive game, Doc isn’t giving him support, etc.

Of course that has nothing to do with him bricking all his free throws to the point he doesn’t want to touch the basketball in a playoff series, but I don’t think we’re exactly dealing with a rational actor here.

[Tomjas]

Slightly off-topic, but had anyone else before ever pondered whether being in Joel's shadow bothered Ben?

That was the popular hypothesis among the Bill Simmons types for years. Two alpha males that want their own team can't coexist. Those people are taking a victory lap now.

But I hope we can all agree that those people were wrong. Ben is not an alpha male, he doesn't want his own team, he doesn't want to be seen or heard by anyone. His problem here was that he couldn't hide behind Joel, from the fans, from the media, from criticism. Criticism like, "when are you going to shoot the ball," and "hey, you should think about getting better at basketball."

Ben's problem was that Joel's shadow wasn't large enough.

I agree it seems like the real issue is he desperately does not want to be criticized or embarrassed, but that for me leads to the idea that it also wouldn’t shock me if Ben has convinced himself that the issue here is Joel posting up so much holds back his offensive game, Doc isn’t giving him support, etc.

Of course that has nothing to do with him bricking all his free throws to the point he doesn’t want to touch the basketball in a playoff series, but I don’t think we’re exactly dealing with a rational actor here.

Or maybe he just doesn’t want to play for the coach again

Paul George says hi

Obvious answer is generally the right one

[DCasey91]

Slightly off-topic, but had anyone else before ever pondered whether being in Joel's shadow bothered Ben?

That was the popular hypothesis among the Bill Simmons types for years. Two alpha males that want their own team can't coexist. Those people are taking a victory lap now.

But I hope we can all agree that those people were wrong. Ben is not an alpha male, he doesn't want his own team, he doesn't want to be seen or heard by anyone. His problem here was that he couldn't hide behind Joel, from the fans, from the media, from criticism. Criticism like, "when are you going to shoot the ball," and "hey, you should think about getting better at basketball."

Ben's problem was that Joel's shadow wasn't large enough.

Which one is the A male though? Can’t see it from both at all. No one follows them

Neither one are leaders.

Both (and this goes for Embiid both are in the same boat, Tobias has always been there but everyone knows this) Lack congruency. Once you understand this you’ll understand why the whole team has always been dysfunctional. It’s a character trait.

Those that have utmost congruency naturally tend to be leaders. Or go right through people or individuals.

One person is Plato
The other Socrates

So to speak

Ben and Embiid are about as congruent as a weak branch on a tree against the wind.

You know why Westbrook naturally always leads and has less awareness than either? He’s maybe the most congruent player in the NBA for good or bad lol.

[IceManBK1]

Wall+1 unprotected first+1 protected first from Min to Philly
Beasley and Prince and McDaniels+Okogie+Maxey+protected 1st from Min to Hou
Ben Simmons and filler to Min.

[Sixerscan]

That was the popular hypothesis among the Bill Simmons types for years. Two alpha males that want their own team can't coexist. Those people are taking a victory lap now.

But I hope we can all agree that those people were wrong. Ben is not an alpha male, he doesn't want his own team, he doesn't want to be seen or heard by anyone. His problem here was that he couldn't hide behind Joel, from the fans, from the media, from criticism. Criticism like, "when are you going to shoot the ball," and "hey, you should think about getting better at basketball."

Ben's problem was that Joel's shadow wasn't large enough.

I agree it seems like the real issue is he desperately does not want to be criticized or embarrassed, but that for me leads to the idea that it also wouldn’t shock me if Ben has convinced himself that the issue here is Joel posting up so much holds back his offensive game, Doc isn’t giving him support, etc.

Of course that has nothing to do with him bricking all his free throws to the point he doesn’t want to touch the basketball in a playoff series, but I don’t think we’re exactly dealing with a rational actor here.

Or maybe he just doesn’t want to play for the coach again

Paul George says hi

Obvious answer is generally the right one

Wouldn't shock me at all if he doesn't want to play for Doc. Point is he's using that as an excuse rather than confronting that him refusing to touch the basketball in a playoff series because he's afraid to go to the line is a Ben Simmons problem. Playing for a coach you don't like doesn't excuse that performance.

[Negrodamus]

Read on Twitter

Yep, this situation is the smoking gun for our current issues. Colangelo wanted to put his fingerprint on the team and took weird lengths to impose that will. Who knows what was going on behind closed doors to undo any remnants of Hinkie's influence.

That would have likely resulted in Embiid being traded and surrounding Ben with a bunch of shooters. Not saying Ben can't be successful as a guy you build around... but Joel would have been the MVP if he played a full season last year. Joel is objectively the more valuable player.

[DCasey91]

The secondary part about congruency plays a role in relation to why scorers that do nothing else are just less valuable in the end.

[Tomjas]

I agree it seems like the real issue is he desperately does not want to be criticized or embarrassed, but that for me leads to the idea that it also wouldn’t shock me if Ben has convinced himself that the issue here is Joel posting up so much holds back his offensive game, Doc isn’t giving him support, etc.

Of course that has nothing to do with him bricking all his free throws to the point he doesn’t want to touch the basketball in a playoff series, but I don’t think we’re exactly dealing with a rational actor here.

Or maybe he just doesn’t want to play for the coach again

Paul George says hi

Obvious answer is generally the right one

Wouldn't shock me at all if he doesn't want to play for Doc. Point is he's using that as an excuse rather than confronting that him refusing to touch the basketball in a playoff series because he's afraid to go to the line is a Ben Simmons problem. Playing for a coach you don't like doesn't excuse that performance.

I am not excusing Ben at all

Just highlights how others have dodged bullets due to focus on Ben

Ben, Doc and Tobias should all be gone if we’re being serious

[Sixerscan]

Slightly off-topic, but had anyone else before ever pondered whether being in Joel's shadow bothered Ben?

That was the popular hypothesis among the Bill Simmons types for years. Two alpha males that want their own team can't coexist. Those people are taking a victory lap now.

But I hope we can all agree that those people were wrong. Ben is not an alpha male, he doesn't want his own team, he doesn't want to be seen or heard by anyone. His problem here was that he couldn't hide behind Joel, from the fans, from the media, from criticism. Criticism like, "when are you going to shoot the ball," and "hey, you should think about getting better at basketball."

Ben's problem was that Joel's shadow wasn't large enough.

Which one is the A male though? Can’t see it from both at all. No one follows them

Neither one are leaders.

Both (and this goes for Embiid both are in the same boat, Tobias has always been there but everyone knows this) Lack congruency. Once you understand this you’ll understand why the whole team has always been dysfunctional. It’s a character trait.

Those that have utmost congruency naturally tend to be leaders. Or go right through people or individuals.

One person is Plato
The other Socrates

So to speak

Ben and Embiid are about as congruent as a weak branch on a tree against the wind.

You know why Westbrook naturally always leads and has less awareness than either? He’s maybe the most congruent player in the NBA for good or bad lol.

IDK what sophomore year philosophy class you just got out of but I'm not sure what dysfunction happened last year that didn't involve Ben deciding offense was optional during the playoffs.

[Turk Nowitzki]

I've been half following this for awhile without getting into the weeds with the fans closest to it. What's the prevailing desire for Philly fans as an outcome here? Obviously the ultimate endgame would be trade Simmons as part of a deal for a better player (Lillard, Beal, etc), if that were on the table it would already be done so let's remove that as an option at this moment. With that removed, what is the Philly fan consensus on this whole situation?

1. See the relationship get repaired, Simmons returns to play for the Sixers for the time being.

2. Trade him now for the best you can get but what may be perceived as not getting the absolute best value. At least get this saga over with.

3. Play hardball, if he doesn't report. let him sit out. Maybe things shift and and someone like Lillard or Beal sees their team get off to a bad start and changes their minds about wanting out. Maybe something else comes up that nobody can forsee at this moment. Run the risk of letting this bleed into the season as distraction and maybe no better deal comes along.

[erving4ever]

During the pre-bubble season and the season when Ben went down, I seriously believed Ben was the better player. Ben finished 3rd team All NBA, and Joel was left out of All NBA teams after the uneven season for him.

Ben was taking it to the rack at will and shooting a relatively good FT% for him in those days. Except for a short burst this season, he has never been quite the same offensively.

Of course now, there is no doubt who the superior player is.

[Damienfan]

I've been half following this for awhile without getting into the weeds with the fans closest to it. What's the prevailing desire for Philly fans as an outcome here? Obviously the ultimate endgame would be trade Simmons as part of a deal for a better player (Lillard, Beal, etc), if that were on the table it would already be done so let's remove that as an option at this moment. With that removed, what is the Philly fan consensus on this whole situation?

1. See the relationship get repaired, Simmons returns to play for the Sixers for the time being.

2. Trade him now for the best you can get but what may be perceived as not getting the absolute best value. At least get this saga over with.

3. Play hardball, if he doesn't report. let him sit out. Maybe things shift and and someone like Lillard or Beal sees their team get off to a bad start and changes their minds about wanting out. Maybe something else comes up that nobody can forsee at this moment. Run the risk of letting this bleed into the season as distraction and maybe no better deal comes along.

3

[Stanford]

Which one is the A male though? Can’t see it from both at all. No one follows them

You're arguing with Bill Simmons, not me

[DCasey91]

That was the popular hypothesis among the Bill Simmons types for years. Two alpha males that want their own team can't coexist. Those people are taking a victory lap now.

But I hope we can all agree that those people were wrong. Ben is not an alpha male, he doesn't want his own team, he doesn't want to be seen or heard by anyone. His problem here was that he couldn't hide behind Joel, from the fans, from the media, from criticism. Criticism like, "when are you going to shoot the ball," and "hey, you should think about getting better at basketball."

Ben's problem was that Joel's shadow wasn't large enough.

Which one is the A male though? Can’t see it from both at all. No one follows them

Neither one are leaders.

Both (and this goes for Embiid both are in the same boat, Tobias has always been there but everyone knows this) Lack congruency. Once you understand this you’ll understand why the whole team has always been dysfunctional. It’s a character trait.

Those that have utmost congruency naturally tend to be leaders. Or go right through people or individuals.

One person is Plato
The other Socrates

So to speak

Ben and Embiid are about as congruent as a weak branch on a tree against the wind.

You know why Westbrook naturally always leads and has less awareness than either? He’s maybe the most congruent player in the NBA for good or bad lol.

IDK what sophomore year philosophy class you just got out of but I'm not sure what dysfunction happened last year that didn't involve Ben deciding offense was optional during the playoffs.

If you don’t think Sixers basketball hasn’t been dysfunctional for the past couple of years than you haven’t been watching.

It’s literally Jekyll and Hyde.

You know why Embiid deferred and got on like a house on fire with Butler and Butler himself smelt and abrased the weak points? Congruency.

I’m a guy, we are mostly guys here, it’s real easy to spot bs. It’s another thing to bring it to the surface. Butler had a fresh set of eyes. Thus was let go in the end. (Nepotism/favoritism)

Takes a tree to be a tree

Takes a mule to be a mule

Takes a b*tch to be a b*tch

[Negrodamus]

It's a shame Dinwiddie was signed by the Wizards. Gives the impression they are still trying to compete, albeit halfheartedly. And the Westbrook trade brought in a bunch of "in their prime" players which makes the timeline all crazy now. Rui, Deni and Bryant are going to be put on the backburner for Harrell, KCP, and Kuzma. It's a weird grouping of talent that doesn't really enhance Beal's talents, imo.

I'm still sticking to my guns that he's going to want out after the wheels start coming off in the first couple of months. That mixed with the T'Wolves likely underperforming again will cause them to panic and give up too much for Ben. In the end:

Sixers get Beal
T'Wolves get Simmons
Wizards get Beasley, McDaniels, Beverley, Layman, 2024 Sixers first, 2023 Min first, 2025 Min first, 2027 Min first

Wiz then has a decade long championship run in the 2030s because the T'Wolves will still suck even with Ben and it'll all blow up in their face.

[Stanford]

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