Around The League: 2021-2022 Season 1.0

[mjkvol]

Really good discussion, I give Fire Morey credit for defending the indefensible, aka Tobias Harris as a starter on a championship level team. Stormi made every point I would have made, plus some more. To put it in a nutshell, the problem with Harris is he does not offer attributes a team needs to win in the playoffs.

He's a fine regular season player - fills the stat sheet and eats up minutes with his jack-of-all-trades skillset. In the playoffs he isn't a guy who you can hand the ball and will go get you a bucket in a huge spot, isn't a knock down shooter, is an average defender and rebounder, and tends to disappear late in games. I'd rather have guys who can do 1-2 of those things well filling out the roster complementing our 'big 3'. Yeah, the contract is a big issue, but the player is the bigger issue.

[kuclas]

The real killer about Boston potentially winning it all aside from being our biggest rivals historically is that their rebuild aligned with the Process though not nearly as extreme yet it netted them better players except Embiid though he alone isn't enough to overcome Tatum, Brown and Smart.

It’s just not that.

The real issues when when ur best player (s)is never healthy

Only time embiid healthy was with 4 month Covid layoff in summer 2020 and than Simmons got injured.

Look what happen to Boston last season. They got hammered in first round without brown.

Boston fortunate to have their two best players healthy for most of those playoff runs except 2018 (no kyrie)

[FireMorey]

Really good discussion, I give Fire Morey credit for defending the indefensible, aka Tobias Harris as a starter on a championship level team. Stormi made every point I would have made, plus some more. To put it in a nutshell, the problem with Harris is he does not offer attributes a team needs to win in the playoffs.

He's a fine regular season player - fills the stat sheet and eats up minutes with his jack-of-all-trades skillset. In the playoffs he isn't a guy who you can hand the ball and will go get you a bucket in a huge spot, isn't a knock down shooter, is an average defender and rebounder, and tends to disappear late in games. I'd rather have guys who can do 1-2 of those things well filling out the roster complementing our 'big 3'. Yeah, the contract is a big issue, but the player is the bigger issue.

Anyone can be a starter on a championship team if your stars are good enough, it depends on who those stars are.

I'm even in favor of trading Harris... IF a deal makes sense and you're not just dumping his salary plus a 1st for trash. He gives you a 3rd or 4th scorer, which is always important in the playoffs when defenses get tougher and points can be hard to come by. What he may lack in elite defensive prowess that a 3&D guy may bring, 3&D guys can go through stretches in the playoffs where they're useless themselves. Only truly the elite of the elite defenders bring it on defense every night. And the ones who're very good, but have games here and there where they aren't shutting down their man, if they aren't lighting it up from 3, they're useless. A guy like Otto Porter for example. He's totally useless if he's not hitting his 3's, if he's not clamping down on someone defensively.

Harris on the other hand at least can put the ball on the floor a little bit, take it mid range, take it to the rim, hit from 3, post up a little. He has versatility he offers that a lot of NBA role players don't. Harris was not the reason the Sixers lost in the playoffs. This year or any year. No team should be relying on him to produce. The Sixers lost because their stars weren't good enough. Period. I've said it before, once Embiid suffered two serious injuries, the playoffs were done for them. We can analyze their defensive rating, and depth all we want. They built the roster to functionally have Embiid as like 80% of the team's offense(either through scoring himself, attracting double teams, or altering the way defenses play the Sixers) and once he was unable to be a guy who could do those things, it was over.

And I'm not even the biggest Harris fan, but to call the guy "atrocious" is absurd and not being objective. He's not atrocious. And he's not unplayable. If Harris is unplayable, then the far majority of the entire NBA is unplayable in the playoffs.

[Embiid P]

The real killer about Boston potentially winning it all aside from being our biggest rivals historically is that their rebuild aligned with the Process though not nearly as extreme yet it netted them better players except Embiid though he alone isn't enough to overcome Tatum, Brown and Smart.

It’s just not that.

The real issues when when ur best player (s)is never healthy

Only time embiid healthy was with 4 month Covid layoff in summer 2020 and than Simmons got injured.

Look what happen to Boston last season. They got hammered in first round without brown.

Boston fortunate to have their two best players healthy for most of those playoff runs except 2018 (no kyrie)

Well, I'm not sure how to solve that issue, as it could be Embiid's genetics, reckless style of play, the fact that he carries too much of the offensive load due to a not-so-stellar supporting cast, bad luck or a combo of all of those.

Of all those I mentioned, the most fixable one is surrounding him with a better supporting cast to lessen the scoring load. I mean he has Maxey but little else.

[Jailblazers7]

The real killer about Boston potentially winning it all aside from being our biggest rivals historically is that their rebuild aligned with the Process though not nearly as extreme yet it netted them better players except Embiid though he alone isn't enough to overcome Tatum, Brown and Smart.

The real difference is that both of Boston’s young stars developed their game every year while only 1 of ours did. If Ben had developed even a slightly more advanced offensive game, then it’d be a different story. We both f*cked up on team building but they overcame their mistakes. For us it was signing Harris, trading Butler, maybe trading for Harden too. For them it was Kemba, Kyrie, & Hayward injuries.

[Jailblazers7]

I’m with FireMorey on Tobi. He’s finally the 4th best offensive player as he should be and looked good in that role. You can point to his lack of playoff success if you want but ultimately our top stars haven’t been good enough and that typically trickles down to role players who need to feed off them.

[blargh]

No. We’re just busy getting a franchise player in the draft.

We were not looking for iso scoring and stretch 5s in the draft. Noel, Okafor, Ben and MCW are not those types.

If you just blindly go after franchise players, you may end up getting one of those toxic franchise players like Westbrook or John Wall. Or have your hands tied building around a player who’s close to impossible to win with Ben Simmons or a franchise player that is very hard to build around in Embiid.

Wow, you’re really going back to the beginning of the process, huh? Then Marcus Smart and Robert Williams don’t look like iso scorers or stretch 5’s either.

Celtics only got good when they got their best players to be more than iso scorers: to be excellent defenders and decent playmakers. And this all happened very, very recently, so it’s not like there was a gradual buildup.

[Mik317]

Tobias is fine

he makes too much money for what his role and for who he is as a player but he was also our most consistently good player this post season. If you could turn him into two players...maybe a starter and a bench guy...then sure but just trading him to get rid of the contract doesn't really do much for us unless a star level guy is on the way.

His playoff run and actual willingness to alter aspects of his game moved him from must trade to look for deals but don't rush it.

[mjkvol]

His playoff run and actual willingness to alter aspects of his game moved him from must trade to look for deals but don't rush it.

Not arguing with that - he has moved from dump at any cost to a potential asset we might actually get a return on. I still don't believe we can win if he is on the roster in a prominent role.

[mjkvol]

Really good discussion, I give Fire Morey credit for defending the indefensible, aka Tobias Harris as a starter on a championship level team. Stormi made every point I would have made, plus some more. To put it in a nutshell, the problem with Harris is he does not offer attributes a team needs to win in the playoffs.

He's a fine regular season player - fills the stat sheet and eats up minutes with his jack-of-all-trades skillset. In the playoffs he isn't a guy who you can hand the ball and will go get you a bucket in a huge spot, isn't a knock down shooter, is an average defender and rebounder, and tends to disappear late in games. I'd rather have guys who can do 1-2 of those things well filling out the roster complementing our 'big 3'. Yeah, the contract is a big issue, but the player is the bigger issue.

Anyone can be a starter on a championship team if your stars are good enough, it depends on who those stars are.

I'm even in favor of trading Harris... IF a deal makes sense and you're not just dumping his salary plus a 1st for trash. He gives you a 3rd or 4th scorer, which is always important in the playoffs when defenses get tougher and points can be hard to come by. What he may lack in elite defensive prowess that a 3&D guy may bring, 3&D guys can go through stretches in the playoffs where they're useless themselves. Only truly the elite of the elite defenders bring it on defense every night. And the ones who're very good, but have games here and there where they aren't shutting down their man, if they aren't lighting it up from 3, they're useless. A guy like Otto Porter for example. He's totally useless if he's not hitting his 3's, if he's not clamping down on someone defensively.

Harris on the other hand at least can put the ball on the floor a little bit, take it mid range, take it to the rim, hit from 3, post up a little. He has versatility he offers that a lot of NBA role players don't. Harris was not the reason the Sixers lost in the playoffs. This year or any year. No team should be relying on him to produce. The Sixers lost because their stars weren't good enough. Period. I've said it before, once Embiid suffered two serious injuries, the playoffs were done for them. We can analyze their defensive rating, and depth all we want. They built the roster to functionally have Embiid as like 80% of the team's offense(either through scoring himself, attracting double teams, or altering the way defenses play the Sixers) and once he was unable to be a guy who could do those things, it was over.

And I'm not even the biggest Harris fan, but to call the guy "atrocious" is absurd and not being objective. He's not atrocious. And he's not unplayable. If Harris is unplayable, then the far majority of the entire NBA is unplayable in the playoffs.

Agreed on two points - we didn't lose because of Harris and right now he is not a salary dump issue. I really believe he needs to be moved for more useful pieces, as I just don't believe he is an impact player in any way, and he ties up way too much of the cap not to be one.

[sixers4real]

That’s what I wrote about the Celtics on GB, I’ll leave it here as well. With some Sixers thoughts after that.

Hate to say it, but I’ve had Celtics winning it all since Tatum’s buzzer beater of Game 1 against the Nets.

Sounds funny and naive, but I’ll explain why.

These Celtics road to title reminds me of lasts year Bucks title run.
Game 1, 1st round in Milwaukee against the Miami Heat, against a team that beat the Bucks in 2020. Khris Middleton makes a game winning shot in the OT and they celebrate it like crazy. That game gave them so much confidence that the Bucks swept the Heat.
Same with Celtics this year. Game 1 first round. Tatum’s buzzer beater against a very good Nets team. They celebrate like crazy. That gave them confidence as well. Swept them.

Then, last year in the in semis Bucks beat a title contender Nets team in Game 7 (injured Kyrie and Harden)
This year Celtics beat a title contender Bucks team (injured Middleton).

Now they play without HCA against an excellent West team. I’m sticking with my prediction.

This Celtics are elite. 2022 NBA champs to me.

[sixers4real]

Now, regarding the Sixers, I think we can be right there with the Celtics and Bucks.

Bucks with Giannis have been up and down until finally becoming champs last year (with some luck of Kyrie and Harden injuries).
Celtics (although they are not champs, but still three wins away) have been also up and down with Tatum, Brown and Smart.

As Embiid always says, you have to keep pushing.

We have three players (Embiid, Harden, Maxey) Morey can build a title contender around.
I think he’ll start with moving Harris and Thybulle this off-season, and if we don’t reach EFC next year, he’ll fire Doc.

[Arsenal]

I’m happy to move Tobi if a deal makes us better.

Since that’s unlikely due to his absurd contract, I’m fine bringing him back. He’s been decent the last two playoffs and we could do worse.

Plus his value should go up significantly by next summer where he’ll be an expiring.

So I expect him to be here. Slide him down to SF and get a secondary rim protector who can switch to start at PF (hopefully that’s Paul Reed).

[76ciology]

Who doesnt want to trade Tobi?

But again, even if you have Mikal Bridges to replace Tobi then you have Monty Williams to replace Doc..

…its not gonna move the needle for it this team depends on what version of Embiid you’ll have in the playoffs.

Embiid in the playoffs
-1 DBPM and .1 BPM

Yes he hurt thats why. And he’ll always be hurt if he tries to go after regular season awards that he will never had the chance to beat guys like Jokic (due to being the gameshark for analytics) or Giannis (way durable and legit elite on both ends)

Mentality should be.. championship or bust.

Everyone from Charlie Brown to Embiid should be focused on sacrificing everything for the championship.

[Iverson Armband]

Honestly, we can all go back n forth, talk about this player and that player…. but all this really boils down to is Harden. If he’s what he’s supposed to be and we pick up another ancillary piece along with some of our young guys getting even just a little bit better, we’re contenders up there with the Celtics, no doubt. If not, we’re back in the middle of the pack rat race. It’s really that simple.

[76ciology]

That’s what I wrote about the Celtics on GB, I’ll leave it here as well. With some Sixers thoughts after that.

Hate to say it, but I’ve had Celtics winning it all since Tatum’s buzzer beater of Game 1 against the Nets.

Sounds funny and naive, but I’ll explain why.

These Celtics road to title reminds me of lasts year Bucks title run.
Game 1, 1st round in Milwaukee against the Miami Heat, against a team that beat the Bucks in 2020. Khris Middleton makes a game winning shot in the OT and they celebrate it like crazy. That game gave them so much confidence that the Bucks swept the Heat.
Same with Celtics this year. Game 1 first round. Tatum’s buzzer beater against a very good Nets team. They celebrate like crazy. That gave them confidence as well. Swept them.

Then, last year in the in semis Bucks beat a title contender Nets team in Game 7 (injured Kyrie and Harden)
This year Celtics beat a title contender Bucks team (injured Middleton).

Now they play without HCA against an excellent West team. I’m sticking with my prediction.

This Celtics are elite. 2022 NBA champs to me.

Most or all have the common goal of winning the championship.

This is why young teams rarely wins, no matter how talented they are.

In an injury, they dont push it through because they’re looking after their career. You look at how Bynum pretty much sacrificed his knee to win the championship by playing it through.

Some just goes all out to win individual awards that they’re exhausted or are in a bad place health wise because of the wear and tear during the regular season.

Celts was running a scheme and was adjusting their roster to be ready in the playoffs.

We were running a different scheme and our roster was ill equiped for the playoffs.

We probably have the shortest 3-4 duos in the league. Thybulle didn’t even get vaccinated and was not available for the playoffs. We didn’t have a competent back-up C. We were playing drop defense and was late on our switch/rotate defense in the playoffs. We know we were the worst rebounding team in reg season and we didn’t do anything to address that in the playoffs.

For our team the goal for this season was to trade for Harden and for Embiid to win MVP. NOT to win championship.

It’s all about preparation and mindset.

You can’t get everything. But you can get virtually anything, but what’s your sacrifice?

[sixers4real]

That’s what I wrote about the Celtics on GB, I’ll leave it here as well. With some Sixers thoughts after that.

Hate to say it, but I’ve had Celtics winning it all since Tatum’s buzzer beater of Game 1 against the Nets.

Sounds funny and naive, but I’ll explain why.

These Celtics road to title reminds me of lasts year Bucks title run.
Game 1, 1st round in Milwaukee against the Miami Heat, against a team that beat the Bucks in 2020. Khris Middleton makes a game winning shot in the OT and they celebrate it like crazy. That game gave them so much confidence that the Bucks swept the Heat.
Same with Celtics this year. Game 1 first round. Tatum’s buzzer beater against a very good Nets team. They celebrate like crazy. That gave them confidence as well. Swept them.

Then, last year in the in semis Bucks beat a title contender Nets team in Game 7 (injured Kyrie and Harden)
This year Celtics beat a title contender Bucks team (injured Middleton).

Now they play without HCA against an excellent West team. I’m sticking with my prediction.

This Celtics are elite. 2022 NBA champs to me.

Most or all have the common goal of winning the championship.

This is why young teams rarely wins, no matter how talented they are.

In an injury, they dont push it through because they’re looking after their career. You look at how Bynum pretty much sacrificed his knee to win the championship by playing it through.

Some just goes all out to win individual awards that they’re exhausted or are in a bad place health wise because of the wear and tear during the regular season.

Celts was running a scheme and was adjusting their roster to be ready in the playoffs.

We were running a different scheme and our roster was ill equiped for the playoffs.

It’s all about preparation and mindset.

Yeah, let’s see how the Sixers prepare for the upcoming season.
5 main guys:

- Daryl Morey - he knows he has to improve this roster
- Glenn Rivers - he knows no has no excuses this time, if the Sixers exit again in EC semis, he’s gone. It’s his third year here. Although if the Sixers will lose again in semis, he’ll arrogantly find someone to blame, because he thinks he’s Popovic level of coaching lol.
- Joel Embiid, I think he can mature even more and take leadership to the next level. And of course I want him to be healthy for playoffs.
- James Harden. After game 6 loss, he said it been rough two years for him and he’s looking forward for the off-season. I’m really exited to see what James Harden are we going to see 2022-23 NBA season AND playoffs.
- Tyrese Maxey. Can he improve over this off-season and be a top 30 NBA player?

[76thBearCub]

It is honestly completely mind boggling that team executives found it in the best interest of the team to commit such a large long term percentage of the salary cap to Tobias Harris. It was a **** boat anchor the day the ink dried.

I'd feel bad for Tobias if he couldn't buy and sell my entire bfe little town on a whim.

[Zumramania]

I think that if Tobias was replaced by a random average starter from another playoff team, this guy would be also doing "all the little things" and we would probably not be worse and maybe be better, depending on who that guy is. Maybe that guy would be able to knock down a few threes in the fourth quarter when all the defensive attention is on Embiid, Harden and Maxey. Harris can't do that.

Tobias made a career out of being a fundamentally solid basketball player, but pumping stats by scoring easy baskets and hiding his inability to step up in key moments, all while being a nice guy and obedient to coaches. He deceived Elton Brand and our FO, and he will probably deceive the next team we trade him to a certain extent. :p

[mjkvol]

I think that if Tobias was replaced by a random average starter from another playoff team, this guy would be also doing "all the little things" and we would probably not be worse and maybe be better, depending on who that guy is. Maybe that guy would be able to knock down a few threes in the fourth quarter when all the defensive attention is on Embiid, Harden and Maxey. Harris can't do that.

Tobias made a career out of being a fundamentally solid basketball player, but pumping stats by scoring easy baskets and hiding his inability to step up in key moments, all while being a nice guy and obedient to coaches. He deceived Elton Brand and our FO, and he will probably deceive the next team we trade him to a certain extent. :p

This flat nails it. The only things you left out were being a 'great locker room guy' and 'team leader', two things Tobias is routinely lauded for. The killer for me was reading that he demanded a more prominent role in the offense from Brown and Brand before deigning to sign that albatross contract, as if he was going to refuse a max deal. He went from decent, well liked journeyman to franchise pillar with the stroke of a pen, but nothing changed on the court.