State of Iguodala and Thaddeus Young's Defense

[youngcrev]

Stupid Doug Collins thinking Iguodala should be an All-Defensive player. lol @ him for thinking he knows more than this statistic. Why even watch? All we have to do is look at this list and realize that Dirk, Hedo, JJ, Butler and Gallinari are among to the top defensive players in the league.

[dbodner]

dMult is a pretty good defensive statistic, but it's not really good for comparing players on different teams. Reason being, it basically takes the man you're guarding, looks at his production while you're guarding him, and compares it to his typical production. So, last year Thaddeus Young had a dMult of 1.300, meaning his man was 130% more productive than he typically was (that was actually a horrible dMult rating, much worse than 0.999 of 2009-2010, which was pretty much right at league average).

Problem with it is it's largely based on the rest of your team. If your guards are bad at denying dribble penetration, bigs will rotate over a disproportionate amount of times to try to stop that penetration, and leave them man open. If you have a dominant shotblocker behind you, he may erase some of your mistakes. If your bigs are bad at the pick and roll, your opponent may score more than his average while at no fault of your own.

Because it's so largely based on team and defensive concepts, it's much better used to compare players on the same team than it is to compare players across teams.

And, when you look at it beyond "neither Iguodala or Young made it to the top 17 in the league, ergo their defense is the same", it's really not even close. Iguodala held his opponents to a 0.910 dMult while guarding the opponents best man. Young gave up 1.300.

[dbodner]

Also Squiggy never guards the teams other best player.

Yeah, that's dead wrong (apologies if you are being sarcastic).

He said "the teams other best player", meaning the best player besides their best player. He's right. Iggy always defends the best player.

[PhillyFan]

thanks for clearing it up, dbodner, your expertise in statistic should shut some of these people up.

funny how some of them would even consider Young to be a better defensive player compared to Iguodala. At least right now.

[Kobblehead]

If you look at the 76ers defense last year as a bad apartment, Young was clearly the failed switch.

[ZzAzZ]

Also Squiggy never guards the teams other best player.

Yeah, that's dead wrong (apologies if you are being sarcastic).

He said "the teams other best player", meaning the best player besides their best player. He's right. Iggy always defends the best player.

Ahh my mistake there, sorry SJSF. I should probably learn to read.

[HotSauce77]

There are no statistics to measure defense that can beat watching the guys play and knowing the teams they play on. This isn't baseball. All these stats don't have anywhere near the value they do in baseball or even in football. Particularly defensively, where basketball is a team game. You watch guys and you decide how good or bad they are. Turkogulu and Gallinari are both bad defensive players, no matter what any statistic will say. A guy like Shane Battier is a top flight defensive player. A guy like Louis Scola is a solid one. Iguodala is good, although with the right team, he can be top flight. Artest, Ariza, Kobe, all those guys are good in their own right. Thad Young is not. He should be average, but he isn't right now. Duncan was possibly the best defensive PF of all time. Doesn't matter what the stats say - ask any of his peers or NBA coaches and they'll say it. Even objective stats like steals and blocked shots are not indicative of being a good defender. Iverson was a horrible defensive player, but jumped the lanes all the time and got a lot of steals. Dalembert was an excellent shot blocker, but probably no better than average defensively. Nick Collison is a solid defensive player, but doesn't block shots. There are so many variables - who else is on your team, what you're asked to do, scheme your team plays, who you guard, etc. The best way to gage how good or bad someone is defensively is to watch them play. At the end, most judgments will be subjective.

[ZzAzZ]

Gotta agree there and even with offensive stats. I know I've said before but even offensive stats just give a portion of the story and not the entire thing. Defense is even worse, people usually just pull out the most basic stats that could have so many more factors to them just to try to prove their point and for some reason because they are numbers, that's supposed to be the end all be all.
I'm 100% with HotSizzle on this one.

[PhillyFan]

Couldn't put it better than HotSauce...though some people like Dedicated watch a lot of Sixers and still think Iguodala can't do a thing on the court.

[ZzAzZ]

He's gone, I think we can stop taking cheap shots now.

[HotSauce77]

Offensively, stats can at least illuminate someone's game a little more. They can show how well a guy shoots from 12 to 15, 18 to 21, etc. Can show how often someone drives, what percentage of time they handle the ball to determine turnover rate, etc. They clearly still don't tell the story, but they can point to certain things a little more. Defensively, it's much more difficult to gage anything from a stat. Take a guy like Ron Artest or Bruce Bowen - they are or were great perimeter defenders. Not rebounders, shot blockers or guys who get a lot of steals. Put them on a team that plays a lot of zone and without a big man, and can you use stats to gage their defense? If they are also asked to switch off and guard guys at different positions throughout the game, and some guys who aren't at their position might take more advantage, does that mean they aren't good? Take Al Horford - he's a good defensive player, but I'd venture to say that he could be great if he was playing PF instead of C, and was paired next to a mobile, shot blocking center. Could be truly outstanding if he played on a team with guards who can keep guys out of the lane more by staying in front of them. I can tell that from watching him play, but not from any defensive statistic anyone is likely to throw out there. I saw some defensive metric that suggested Andre Bargniani is a good defensive player. I don't care what anyone argues to me, but the guy is a terrible defensive player at his position and probably can't be more than serviceable period. But you take certain stats and bam, he's a good defensive player somehow.

[ZzAzZ]

Maybe they can but they sometimes misguide what someone is actually good at. The example I use a lot is when you know a guy struggles as a jump shooter so you sag off him. Then he just may end up with a better % than a really good shooter who you hound all game long.

[HotSauce77]

Yeah, there is that. Plus, there is a difference between being wide open because you play with two star players and being asked to be the guy who has to take pressure shots. A lot goes into it. Stats have certain value, but at the end, nothing like watching guys play. Using individual stats to argue for something in basketball is usually a tough proposition.

[fierceCRT]

Im not really buying into this. Ill take Iggy over half the guys on this list.