Celtics fans seem to favor Noel

[the_process]

My proposed lineup is way better than last year squad defensively. Last season, none of our backcourt have a positive DPM. At least Courtney Lee as a defender is better than whatever we have, heck I might go out to get Batum just to get some perimeter defense. Okafor isn't a great rim protector but his weakness get exacerbated because we don't have any guard that can prevent dribble penetration.

But it's not better, that's the point. Well, one of the points. And Batum is getting maxed out by Charlotte.

We can sit here and play hypothetical all day, but I rather have a lineup that can score to help offset our piss poor defense. Last year team has no offense or defense.

Ok, I see your logic there.

What is your point?

This.

Murray / Lee / Covington / Simmons / Okafor is so gross. That team would be unwatchable.

[phantom84]

My proposed lineup is way better than last year squad defensively. Last season, none of our backcourt have a positive DPM. At least Courtney Lee as a defender is better than whatever we have, heck I might go out to get Batum just to get some perimeter defense. Okafor isn't a great rim protector but his weakness get exacerbated because we don't have any guard that can prevent dribble penetration.

But it's not better, that's the point. And Batum is getting maxed out by Charlotte.

We can sit here and play hypothetical all day, but I rather have a lineup that can score to help offset our piss poor defense. Last year team has no offense or defense.

Ok, I see your logic there.

What is your point?

This.

Murray / Lee / Covington / Simmons / Okafor is so gross. That team would be unwatchable.

Well I disagree, anything is better than Stauskas, Canaan, and Thompson as my backcourt. I can live with Murray defensive woes if he is out there spacing the floor for our big inside. Dude is going to be a stud.

And that team would be awesome to watch.

[Sixerscan]

No defense?

This is what I was going to say. That proposed lineup would probably be the worst defensive squad in history.

Hyperbole much. How can that lineup be worst than last year squad consisting of Isiah Canaan, Nik Stauskas, Ish Smith, and Hollis Thompson which all post a negative DPM lol.

Well Noel and Brand were pretty much the only positive defensive players on the team and in this scenario you're replacing them with a bunch of rookies. Our defense wasn't even the worst in the league this year it can get a lot worse.

[phantom84]

This is what I was going to say. That proposed lineup would probably be the worst defensive squad in history.

Hyperbole much. How can that lineup be worst than last year squad consisting of Isiah Canaan, Nik Stauskas, Ish Smith, and Hollis Thompson which all post a negative DPM lol.

Well Noel and Brand were pretty much the only positive defensive players on the team and in this scenario you're replacing them with a bunch of rookies. Our defense wasn't even the worst in the league this year it can get a lot worse.

Not really, I only replace them with two rookie which is Murray and Simmons. I think Simmons will be a good defender in the league. Also, Courtney Lee and Roco are solid defender. Also we can always swap in Jerami Grant, Embiid, and Richaun Holmes in the game for defensive purposes.

[Sixerscan]

Hyperbole much. How can that lineup be worst than last year squad consisting of Isiah Canaan, Nik Stauskas, Ish Smith, and Hollis Thompson which all post a negative DPM lol.

Well Noel and Brand were pretty much the only positive defensive players on the team and in this scenario you're replacing them with a bunch of rookies. Our defense wasn't even the worst in the league this year it can get a lot worse.

Not really, I only replace them with two rookie which is Murray and Simmons. I think Simmons will be a good defender in the league. Also, Courtney Lee and Roco are solid defender. Also we can always swap in Jerami Grant, Embiid, and Richaun Holmes in the game for defensive purposes.

Embiid will also be a rookie, one that hasn't played in 2+ years to boot. Maybe Simmons will eventually become a decent defender, but probably not right away, especially with Murray and Okafor being prominently involved in helping him on defense.

They might eventually gel and develop into a competent defensive team, but that would likely be a disaster to start the year.

[phantom84]

Well Noel and Brand were pretty much the only positive defensive players on the team and in this scenario you're replacing them with a bunch of rookies. Our defense wasn't even the worst in the league this year it can get a lot worse.

Not really, I only replace them with two rookie which is Murray and Simmons. I think Simmons will be a good defender in the league. Also, Courtney Lee and Roco are solid defender. Also we can always swap in Jerami Grant, Embiid, and Richaun Holmes in the game for defensive purposes.

Embiid will also be a rookie, one that hasn't played in 2+ years to boot. Maybe Simmons will eventually become a decent defender, but probably not right away, especially with Murray and Okafor being prominently involved in helping him on defense.

They might eventually gel and develop into a competent defensive team, but that would likely be a disaster to start the year.

Well I simply disagree with the notion that rookie can't come into league playing good defense, i.e Stanley Johnson and Justise Winslow. I think Simmons will be a good defender right out of the gate. I already seen disaster, and that was last year. Can't get any worse.

[the_process]

Not really, I only replace them with two rookie which is Murray and Simmons. I think Simmons will be a good defender in the league. Also, Courtney Lee and Roco are solid defender. Also we can always swap in Jerami Grant, Embiid, and Richaun Holmes in the game for defensive purposes.

And here is the disconnect. God, I hope Bryan takes Ingram.

[phantom84]

Not really, I only replace them with two rookie which is Murray and Simmons. I think Simmons will be a good defender in the league. Also, Courtney Lee and Roco are solid defender. Also we can always swap in Jerami Grant, Embiid, and Richaun Holmes in the game for defensive purposes.

And here is the disconnect. God, I hope Bryan takes Ingram.

No disconnect with me, Simmons is a good defender. Get ready to order that Simmons jersey once we draft him

[Sixerscan]

Not really, I only replace them with two rookie which is Murray and Simmons. I think Simmons will be a good defender in the league. Also, Courtney Lee and Roco are solid defender. Also we can always swap in Jerami Grant, Embiid, and Richaun Holmes in the game for defensive purposes.

Embiid will also be a rookie, one that hasn't played in 2+ years to boot. Maybe Simmons will eventually become a decent defender, but probably not right away, especially with Murray and Okafor being prominently involved in helping him on defense.

They might eventually gel and develop into a competent defensive team, but that would likely be a disaster to start the year.

Well I simply disagree with the notion that rookie can't come into league playing good defense, i.e Stanley Johnson and Justise Winslow. I think Simmons will be a good defender right out of the gate. I already seen disaster, and that was last year. Can't get any worse.

Well those guys were also known for the their defense in college and were put in situations in the NBA where they could be role players on playoff teams. Putting a 19 year old that has never shown any particular desire to D up into a situation where he has to both be the best player on a crappy team and a good defender is a recipe for disaster.

It can definitely get a lot worse, did you watch the Lakers or Nets play "defense" this year?

[the_process]

Not really, I only replace them with two rookie which is Murray and Simmons. I think Simmons will be a good defender in the league. Also, Courtney Lee and Roco are solid defender. Also we can always swap in Jerami Grant, Embiid, and Richaun Holmes in the game for defensive purposes.

And here is the disconnect. God, I hope Bryan takes Ingram.

No disconnect with me, Simmons is a good defender. Get ready to order that Simmons jersey once we draft him

No, I meant that's why we disagree about that lineup. You think Simmons will be a good defender, and I think he sat hidden in the back of a zone padding his rebounding numbers not playing any defense at all.

Listen, if Simmons is the pick and he becomes a star and Ingram becomes less than a star, I'll gladly eat a flock of crows.

[phantom84]

Embiid will also be a rookie, one that hasn't played in 2+ years to boot. Maybe Simmons will eventually become a decent defender, but probably not right away, especially with Murray and Okafor being prominently involved in helping him on defense.

They might eventually gel and develop into a competent defensive team, but that would likely be a disaster to start the year.

Well I simply disagree with the notion that rookie can't come into league playing good defense, i.e Stanley Johnson and Justise Winslow. I think Simmons will be a good defender right out of the gate. I already seen disaster, and that was last year. Can't get any worse.

Well those guys were also known for the their defense in college and were put in situations in the NBA where they could be role players on playoff teams. Putting a 19 year old in a situation where he has to both be the best player on a crappy team and a good defender is a recipe for disaster.

It can definitely get a lot worse, did you watch the Lakers or Nets play "defense" this year?

Simmons will have to live up to expectation, but he doesn't have to do it alone since we have core guys like Embiid and Murray to help him along the way. Not asking him to be great, but good is sufficient enough.

We got 10 wins last year, last I check Lakers and Nets have more wins. Can't see it getting any worse than that.

[phantom84]

And here is the disconnect. God, I hope Bryan takes Ingram.

No disconnect with me, Simmons is a good defender. Get ready to order that Simmons jersey once we draft him

No, I meant that's why we disagree about that lineup. You think Simmons will be a good defender, and I think he sat hidden in the back of a zone padding his rebounding numbers not playing any defense at all.

Listen, if Simmons is the pick and he becomes a star and Ingram becomes less than a star, I'll gladly eat a flock of crows.

Not saying you are wrong either, since I don't have a crystal ball. We shall see who is right.

[Negrodamus]

Hyperbole much. How can that lineup be worst than last year squad consisting of Isiah Canaan, Nik Stauskas, Ish Smith, and Hollis Thompson which all post a negative DPM lol.

Hyperbole? Of course. But is that proposed lineup worse than the 10 win team? I mean, last year they were ranked 26th defensively by PPP, so they weren't even the worst team.

That proposed team would probably give up 1.4 points per possession at minimum. Can't stop penetration, can't close out on shooters, no rim protection, and only average rebounding (Simmons inflated rebounding numbers at LSU not withstanding).

What is your point? My proposed lineup is way better than last year squad defensively. Last season, none of our backcourt have a positive DPM. At least Courtney Lee as a defender is better than whatever we have, heck I might go out to get Batum just to get some perimeter defense. Okafor isn't a great rim protector but his weakness get exacerbated because we don't have any guard that can prevent dribble penetration. We can sit here and play hypothetical all day, but I rather have a lineup that can score to help offset our piss poor defense. Last year team has no offense or defense.

What does this mean? Box Plus/Minus is good at measuring offense and solid overall, but the defensive numbers in particular should not be considered definitive. Look at the defensive values as a guide, but don't hesitate to discount them when a player is well known as a good or bad defender.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm.html

EDIT: I iz bad reader. Thought it was front court. It is a quote to keep in mind, but doesn't apply here. My apologies.

[Ericb5]

While we are now officially done the tank, and are out of pure asset acquisition mode, we aren't trying to field a lineup that can go to the playoffs.

People are getting ahead of themselves when they talk of an entire lineup in terms of defense, or scoring or whatever.

What we should be doing at this stage is building around Simmons and Embiid. That doesn't mean you pencil them in and just start trying to find all of the rest of the spots today.

It means that we now shift towards supporting them, and we will start using fit with them when evaluating acquisitions.

The Okafor/Noel situation needs to be resolved this year, but not before the draft.

Probably, the lineup next year will have Simmons and Covington starting in the front court. Noel starting at center where at some point Embiid will take over. The backcourt will probably be Stauskus, and an unknown point guard. If we trade Okafor for Dunn then it would be him.

The rest of the guys will compete for minutes on the bench.

That team, if healthy, should win 25 games or so, which would be a great step forward. Then we try to add pieces each year as we grow.

Simmons and Embiid, and how they develop over the next few years will be the main factor in how good we get.



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[Sixerscan]

Well I simply disagree with the notion that rookie can't come into league playing good defense, i.e Stanley Johnson and Justise Winslow. I think Simmons will be a good defender right out of the gate. I already seen disaster, and that was last year. Can't get any worse.

Well those guys were also known for the their defense in college and were put in situations in the NBA where they could be role players on playoff teams. Putting a 19 year old in a situation where he has to both be the best player on a crappy team and a good defender is a recipe for disaster.

It can definitely get a lot worse, did you watch the Lakers or Nets play "defense" this year?

Simmons will have to live up to expectation, but he doesn't have to do it alone since we have core guys like Embiid and Murray to help him along the way. Not asking him to be great, but good is sufficient enough.

We got 10 wins last year, last I check Lakers and Nets have more wins. Can't see it getting any worse than that.

That was in large part because of how historically awful the offense was. The defense was bad but there were other teams that were worse.

I think he can eventually be good, that lineup would just not be pretty on day one, maybe not even year one. Like Minny gave up more points per possession than us this year, and their core guys have a lot more defensive potential than the Sixers' would in this scenario. It's just super rare for rookies to do anything positive on defense, especially when they hasn't really been their rep going in and they're not being slotted in with vets.

[phantom84]

Hyperbole? Of course. But is that proposed lineup worse than the 10 win team? I mean, last year they were ranked 26th defensively by PPP, so they weren't even the worst team.

That proposed team would probably give up 1.4 points per possession at minimum. Can't stop penetration, can't close out on shooters, no rim protection, and only average rebounding (Simmons inflated rebounding numbers at LSU not withstanding).

What is your point? My proposed lineup is way better than last year squad defensively. Last season, none of our backcourt have a positive DPM. At least Courtney Lee as a defender is better than whatever we have, heck I might go out to get Batum just to get some perimeter defense. Okafor isn't a great rim protector but his weakness get exacerbated because we don't have any guard that can prevent dribble penetration. We can sit here and play hypothetical all day, but I rather have a lineup that can score to help offset our piss poor defense. Last year team has no offense or defense.

What does this mean? Box Plus/Minus is good at measuring offense and solid overall, but the defensive numbers in particular should not be considered definitive. Look at the defensive values as a guide, but don't hesitate to discount them when a player is well known as a good or bad defender.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm.html

Are you saying Stauskas, Canaan, and Thompson are good defenders? They have a negative DPM and fail the eye test as well. No need to patronize me.

[Negrodamus]

What is your point? My proposed lineup is way better than last year squad defensively. Last season, none of our backcourt have a positive DPM. At least Courtney Lee as a defender is better than whatever we have, heck I might go out to get Batum just to get some perimeter defense. Okafor isn't a great rim protector but his weakness get exacerbated because we don't have any guard that can prevent dribble penetration. We can sit here and play hypothetical all day, but I rather have a lineup that can score to help offset our piss poor defense. Last year team has no offense or defense.

What does this mean? Box Plus/Minus is good at measuring offense and solid overall, but the defensive numbers in particular should not be considered definitive. Look at the defensive values as a guide, but don't hesitate to discount them when a player is well known as a good or bad defender.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm.html

Are you saying Stauskas, Canaan, and Thompson are good defenders? They have a negative DPM and fail the eye test as well. No need to patronize me.

Whoops, read that as frontcourt. My bad.

[phantom84]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm.html

Are you saying Stauskas, Canaan, and Thompson are good defenders? They have a negative DPM and fail the eye test as well. No need to patronize me.

Whoops, read that as frontcourt. My bad.

It's all cool. Whatever happens, next year is going to be exciting.

[Ericb5]

Are you saying Stauskas, Canaan, and Thompson are good defenders? They have a negative DPM and fail the eye test as well. No need to patronize me.

Whoops, read that as frontcourt. My bad.

It's all cool. Whatever happens, next year is going to be exciting.

When it comes down to it, that is what we should be focusing on.

I still can't believe that we won the lottery!

As long as the Embiid news stays good, next season will be the most fun to watch season that we have had in a long time.


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[ACPhila]

no way am I trading Noel to the celtics for a few reasons. One he's too good and hes better than Okafor (which is why celtics fans want him). 2 We need a defensive center if Embiid cant play much because Okafor is awful at it.