This Is Why Willie Green Will Be Traded

[dbodner]

One thing about statistics ... they are available to support just about any position you wish to take. You just have to search for them and only quote the ones that support your position. What you have just proven is that you are willing to take the time to find them. Good Work.

If you are going to say that statistics are invalid, you have to explain WHY statistics are invalid. Otherwise you are simply dismissing them with no basis.

[dbodner]

One might use these stats to imply that Willie Green is better in some manner than Tayshaun Prince. I left out other stats that do not support that view. That is how you use stats to support a position and believe me it is done all of the time because usually no-one bothers pouring through all of the other stats to bring out the other stats. And that is why I place little value in someone throwing stats at us as "proof" of their position.

That doesn't prove that all stats are invalid, and that all stats are used incorrectly, just that you've used stats incorrectly.

That would be like me saying "Zach Randolph has been a 20/10 Power Forward. Zach Randolph has never won a playoff series. Therefore, all 20/10 Power Forwards are worthless".

Yeah, nice try.

If you have a problem with the stats used, debate why they do not paint an accurate picture. Don't just blindly through out "stats are worthless".

For example, by your stats I would say:
Yes, but:
- Despite your selective use of fg% in selective situations, Prince has a career fg% of 46.3%, and 3 pt percentage of 36.5%, whereas Willie Green has a career field goal percentage of 41% and 31% (it's 44.6% and 36.2% vs 43.4% and 28.7% for this year).
- Prince is an all-league caliber defender, as evidenced by him holding his opponents to a 13.2 PER. Willie Green isn't near the defender (17.8 PER).

See, rather than tossing stats out completely, you explain why your usage of stats if flawed, and bring back counterpoints to back up your point.

"Stats can be used erroneously, therefore all stats are worthless" is just about as relevant as "Zach Randolph can put up 20/10 and not be able to lead a team, therefore all PF's who put up 20/10 are not able to lead teams". in ortherwords, it's an invalid argument.

[dond]

rather than tossing stats out completely, ... bring back counterpoints to back up your point.

Well, like I explained ... The problem is that most fans do not wish to argue a point to the level of researching databases for statistics to back up their point of view. So, the result is that most of the time ... the statistics presented go unchallenged statistically. However, that does not raise them to the level of being "proof" of a particular point ... only that they are unchallenged mostly due to a lack of interest in that activity by others. That is why I, personally, find my eyes glazing over when presented with a littany of facts to back up a point of view that I feel is questionable at best but I am not sufficiently motivated to go searching the internet for "facts" to disprove them.

Now if we had a rule on the forum that someone "caught" presenting statistics that were either wrong or obviously misleading by ommision of other pertinent statistics would be barred from any statistical presentations in the future, I might be motivated enough to engage in that activity. But to do it only to be presented with another page of statistics that may or may not be painting the correct picture just doesn't seem worth the effort.

Oh ... and one last thing ... I have mentioned this before but thought it worth throwing out here again ...

Again ... there is so much more to the game of basketball than statistics that I find presenting stats to demonstrate a players value just falls woefully short of the real picture. And ... my prime example is ... you guessed it ... Allen Iverson ... In my opinion, he is the poster boy for a player with great individual statistics who's total effect on a team's effectiveness does not reach the level of his own personal statistics. Maybe there is a statistic out there that would show that but I haven't heard of it yet.

[Cookin Baskets]

Willie Green should not be in the NBA. I'm hoping that Mo and others eventually see this. He sucks and I hope he is traded soon. I personally think that Green has some dirt on Mo or is blackmailing him somehow. I mean, why else would he be starting Green?

I don't agree with this to say he does not belong in the nba is utterly stupid, who else would be starting at sg Lou Williams is too small and works well with Miller/Williams combo at point.

Willie Green has played well for 76ers and is only a 2nd round pick. Trading will be a pointless task and I think he is probaly one of our best three point shooters on the team along with Lou Will,Iggy.

Willie Green playing 26.4 minutes and averaging 12 points on 43 percent shooting thats not bad, he has been getting it done and has shown to be a complement to other 76ers and is a good veteran. I'm tired of all these forums,bashing Willie Green he is one of my favorite players and he has done his part to help the Sixers.

Everyone loved Aaron Mckie around here, when Willie Green is basically a better version of Mckie. Stop the hate Willie Green was a steal where we picked him 12th by Seattle in the 2nd round.Green has shown progress this year. Thats a good idea what do we trade Green, doesn't have much value and it would be better if we kept him. He is holding is own at sg spot, and I don't see that as major problem with Willie Green,like I said he is one of my favorite players.

Maybe in the future, he could improve his game more which he has think of where he came from, he was no 1st round pick worked pretty hard where he is at. Every year he gets better and moves higher on the food chain or he could be a vital member on the bench for a contending 76ers Team. The point is Willie Green is the man and unless we would get anything great in return it would be utterly stupid to let him go. Blackmailing Mo Cheeks, yea right are u serious with that bull?

Willie Green is one of my favorite 76ers, and is more important, deserves more credit then he is getting on the boards, alot of hate end it..Willie Green as a 76er one of my favorites. Seen him since rookie season and only has improved his game. Willie was in a slump, all the best players even have this and wouldn't judge him on a little bit of struggles all humans go through. Willie Green is the man and don't want him to be traded unless we have to for someone that would make us eastern conference contenders. Willie Green won't do that for ya in the trade market, so its better just to keep him, he could more valuable then people give him credit for.

[Sixers24]

Well, like I explained ... The problem is that most fans do not wish to argue a point to the level of researching databases for statistics to back up their point of view. So, the result is that most of the time ... the statistics presented go unchallenged statistically. However, that does not raise them to the level of being "proof" of a particular point ... only that they are unchallenged mostly due to a lack of interest in that activity by others. That is why I, personally, find my eyes glazing over when presented with a littany of facts to back up a point of view that I feel is questionable at best but I am not sufficiently motivated to go searching the internet for "facts" to disprove them.

Now if we had a rule on the forum that someone "caught" presenting statistics that were either wrong or obviously misleading by ommision of other pertinent statistics would be barred from any statistical presentations in the future, I might be motivated enough to engage in that activity. But to do it only to be presented with another page of statistics that may or may not be painting the correct picture just doesn't seem worth the effort.

Oh ... and one last thing ... I have mentioned this before but thought it worth throwing out here again ...

Again ... there is so much more to the game of basketball than statistics that I find presenting stats to demonstrate a players value just falls woefully short of the real picture. And ... my prime example is ... you guessed it ... Allen Iverson ... In my opinion, he is the poster boy for a player with great individual statistics who's total effect on a team's effectiveness does not reach the level of his own personal statistics. Maybe there is a statistic out there that would show that but I haven't heard of it yet.

[LieCheatSteal]

It's tough to move Green for nothing. Most likely, it will be for another player that doesn't deserve his contract either. There won't be another team that will just give the Sixers picks for him. Again, I suggest Rashual Butler from the Hornets: close to same amount of money, gives this team a three point guy and completely redundant on a Hornets team with Peterson and Peja.

[dbodner]

-= original quote snipped =-

Seriously.

so rather than say why the stats I presented are flawed and not a fair representation, he just says "eh, they're stats, and hence not valid".

[dond]

so rather than say why the stats I presented are flawed and not a fair representation, he just says "eh, they're stats, and hence not valid".

No ... not that they aren't valid ... just that they may not paint the complete picture ... and ... I am not sufficiently motivated to search for statistics that may refute your position. I also find that those that do use boatloads of statistics to back a position will seldom accept contrary opinions based on someone elses statistics anyway so it rarely results in a changing of opinion ... only more statistics to uphold their own position......so I see no real sense to it.

[dond]

I think it's also important to state that style of play for different teams will affect the importance and impact of individual stats on success on a certain team.

Absolutely true .... which further reduces the significance of statistics in evaluating the value of players.

[Mahorn at the 4]

Perhaps BK would be interested in Green if he gets the Milwaukee job.

[freshie2]

Carney is starting to fill the Korver void plus getting some defense. We talked about this similarity earlier in the season, and now that Carney is hitting the jumper, he's really a big part of this run. The way he is playing now + Thad makes the loss of KK much easier to accept.

[Louis Williams]

There is obviously something that Cheeks sees in Green that doesn't necessarily translate to the stat sheet.

I really don't see what all the fuss is. Like I said, he isn't playing big minutes, and he isn't losing us games.

[dbodner]

There is obviously something that Cheeks sees in Green that doesn't necessarily translate to the stat sheet.

Based on what? The fact that he starts?

I've always believed what others have echoed, that it's more important who finishes. I find it very telling that Lou, Thad, and even Carney get more 4th quarter PT than willie on most nights.

[freshie2]

Yep...why mess with the chemistry that is currently working?? I think we'll all be shocked if Willie is starting next season. He'll be a nice 10-15 minute a night piece off the bench, but I can't see him starting over the other swing players on this roster.

[Louis Williams]

There is obviously something that Cheeks sees in Green that doesn't necessarily translate to the stat sheet.

Based on what? The fact that he starts?

I've always believed what others have echoed, that it's more important who finishes. I find it very telling that Lou, Thad, and even Carney get more 4th quarter PT than willie on most nights.

Based on the fact that he's getting time, period. From the stats you pull up, one would assume the guy is a liability and its a wonder how he's a part of the rotation.

There must be something Cheeks likes because he keeps giving him consistent minutes, whether its at the beginning of the game or at the end.

[dbodner]

There must be something Cheeks likes because he keeps giving him consistent minutes, whether its at the beginning of the game or at the end.

Are his numbers really that consistent? He went from 29:18 in November, and 28:53 in December to 21:18 in March and 22:11 in April. His numbers are on a steady decline.

IMO he deserves about 15 mpg. He's now getting about 7 per game more than he should because we don't have a wing starter who has asserted himself (Thad's primarily a PF this year).

[Sixers24]

-= original quote snipped =-



Absolutely true .... which further reduces the significance of statistics in evaluating the value of players.

There are stats that do this!

I'm going to try not to attack dond individually here, but it's this mindsight, the "Well, it's all just opinions man, and everyone's allowed to have them." along with the oversaturation of the media that is KILLING the way we follow sports.

If you're not going to attempt to back your opinions up with stats or at least some kind of tangible, measureable evidence, you might as well as be Skip Bayless.

[dbodner]

-= original quote snipped =-



There are stats that do this!

I'm going to try not to attack dond individually here, but it's this mindsight, the "Well, it's all just opinions man, and everyone's allowed to have them." along with the oversaturation of the media that is KILLING the way we follow sports.

If you're not going to attempt to back your opinions up with stats or at least some kind of tangible, measureable evidence, you might as well as be Skip Bayless.

It's obviously Mo's system that results in Willie Green's man outproducing him on a consistent basis. Duh.

[bigdavid]

For some reason when willie goes up for a shot in inside the circle he shows the ball in front of him therefor making it easy to block by opposing players. I dont know if there is a stat for that but i would bet that Willie has more shots blocked per attempt than most other 2 guards.

I also believe that he has poor court vision because he dribbles with his head down watching the ball. Although even tho he is a team player and never seems to get down on himself I think he should be left go. IMO

[Louis Williams]

There must be something Cheeks likes because he keeps giving him consistent minutes, whether its at the beginning of the game or at the end.

Are his numbers really that consistent? He went from 29:18 in November, and 28:53 in December to 21:18 in March and 22:11 in April. His numbers are on a steady decline.

Maybe his numbers have gone down due to a combination of his back injury, him not shooting well, and Williams and Carney playing good ball.

IMO he deserves about 15 mpg. He's now getting about 7 per game more than he should because we don't have a wing starter who has asserted himself (Thad's primarily a PF this year).

There is 1 of 2 things going on here. Either I'm not making myself clear, or you are just so much of a hater that it doesn't matter what I say, you are just going to argue.

I'll say this 1 last time, and try to be as clear as possible. There is something about Green that Cheeks likes. You can pull up any stat you want that says that Green isn't a good player. It doesn't matter. Cheeks likes him, and has made him a fixture in the starting lineup. Green doesn't play in the 4th quarter and doesn't get big minutes, but he has a role on this team nonetheless, and the team is winning.

You are free to have your opinion about how much time Green "deserves" but if the team is winning, I really don't understand what you are complaining about. Cheeks has this team winning and in the playoffs. I would think fans would be happy and focused on that, and not how many minutes Willie Green is playing.