Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll

[Ericb5]

But my question is why trade Okafor when he is just as good of a talent, if we're going by college advanced stats, when we can take someone (who I like better) that could work with Okafor?

They are not the same level of talent, and college stats are irrelevant. They measure how well he produced in the games that he played, and not how talented his is.


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If you don't mind me asking, how are we to measure talent?

You can't measure it.

It is not quantifiable. You can only measure production.

So you could argue that one player is better than another player today based on stats, but you can't use stats to argue why someone is going to be better in 3 years.


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[Negrodamus]

They are not the same level of talent, and college stats are irrelevant. They measure how well he produced in the games that he played, and not how talented his is.


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If you don't mind me asking, how are we to measure talent?

You can't measure it.

It is not quantifiable. You can only measure production.

So you could argue that one player is better than another player today based on stats, but you can't use stats to argue why someone is going to be better in 3 years.


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So if we take their production (which is nearly identical) aside, why is Okafor and Simmons not the same level of talent? I'm legitimately interested. Is it because Simmons is tall, can handle a basketball well, and can pass at a high level?

Okafor has the ability to eventually be a player that you can toss the ball to at 15-20ft out and he'll have a near 60% chance at scoring (if we are to believe that he's going to maintain, or even improve on, the level he was at before the injury). You know who would want that kind of talent? Everyone in the NBA.

[sixers23]

If you don't mind me asking, how are we to measure talent?

You can't measure it.

It is not quantifiable. You can only measure production.

So you could argue that one player is better than another player today based on stats, but you can't use stats to argue why someone is going to be better in 3 years.


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So if we take their production (which is nearly identical) aside, why is Okafor and Simmons not the same level of talent? I'm legitimately interested. Is it because Simmons is tall, can handle a basketball well, and can pass at a high level?

Okafor has the ability to eventually be a player that you can toss the ball to at 15-20ft out and he'll have a near 60% chance at scoring (if we are to believe that he's going to maintain, or even improve on, the level he was at before the injury). You know who would want that kind of talent? Everyone in the NBA.

Yet he does nothing else well and doesn't do what you need from a center

[Ericb5]

If you don't mind me asking, how are we to measure talent?

You can't measure it.

It is not quantifiable. You can only measure production.

So you could argue that one player is better than another player today based on stats, but you can't use stats to argue why someone is going to be better in 3 years.


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So if we take their production (which is nearly identical) aside, why is Okafor and Simmons not the same level of talent? I'm legitimately interested. Is it because Simmons is tall, can handle a basketball well, and can pass at a high level?

Okafor has the ability to eventually be a player that you can toss the ball to at 15-20ft out and he'll have a near 60% chance at scoring (if we are to believe that he's going to maintain, or even improve on, the level he was at before the injury). You know who would want that kind of talent? Everyone in the NBA.

Okafor doesn't have the physical ability or the instincts to ever be a great defender, and his floor game is pretty much limited to passing out of double teams. He is pretty exclusively a half court player, that has the potential to be a great scorer.

I think that he has a chance to make a few all star games, but he is never going to be an mvp candidate.

Simmons can be an elite offensive, and defensive player, that makes everyone around him better.

He can be a player on the level of a Durant or Westbrook imo. A superstar that can challenge for MVP awards.




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[Sixerscan]

If you don't mind me asking, how are we to measure talent?

You can't measure it.

It is not quantifiable. You can only measure production.

So you could argue that one player is better than another player today based on stats, but you can't use stats to argue why someone is going to be better in 3 years.


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So if we take their production (which is nearly identical) aside, why is Okafor and Simmons not the same level of talent? I'm legitimately interested. Is it because Simmons is tall, can handle a basketball well, and can pass at a high level?

Okafor has the ability to eventually be a player that you can toss the ball to at 15-20ft out and he'll have a near 60% chance at scoring (if we are to believe that he's going to maintain, or even improve on, the level he was at before the injury). You know who would want that kind of talent? Everyone in the NBA.

Again, Okafor's statistical production in college projected him out to be a mid first round pick while Simmons is at the top of his class. Different numbers project differently at the next level.

The bolded is ridiculous.

[Negrodamus]

You can't measure it.

It is not quantifiable. You can only measure production.

So you could argue that one player is better than another player today based on stats, but you can't use stats to argue why someone is going to be better in 3 years.


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So if we take their production (which is nearly identical) aside, why is Okafor and Simmons not the same level of talent? I'm legitimately interested. Is it because Simmons is tall, can handle a basketball well, and can pass at a high level?

Okafor has the ability to eventually be a player that you can toss the ball to at 15-20ft out and he'll have a near 60% chance at scoring (if we are to believe that he's going to maintain, or even improve on, the level he was at before the injury). You know who would want that kind of talent? Everyone in the NBA.

Okafor doesn't have the physical ability or the instincts to ever be a great defender, and his floor game is pretty much limited to passing out of double teams. He is pretty exclusively a half court player, that has the potential to be a great scorer.

I think that he has a chance to make a few all star games, but he is never going to be an mvp candidate.

Simmons can be an elite offensive, and defensive player, that makes everyone around him better.

He can be a player on the level of a Durant or Westbrook imo. A superstar that can challenge for MVP awards.

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I just don't see Durant or Westbrook. Sorry.

I also don't understand the stones thrown at Okafor's defense when Simmons has yet to show any reason to believe that he'll be good on that end. I don't take his DBPM as a viable stat, and since we're evaluating talent, most statistics fail to show his ineptitude on the defensive end. You just have to watch him get blown by or lethargically attempt to play help defense.

And while Okafor has the ability to be a great half court scorer, Ben is great in the fast break. But how is Ben in half court offense? Are we to assume that Simmons will improve on that end while Okafor will never be able to run the court well?

[CoreyGallagher]

Again, Okafor's statistical production in college projected him out to be a mid first round pick while Simmons is at the top of his class. Different numbers project differently at the next level.

The bolded is ridiculous.

What statistics are we referring to? Not these?

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/jahlil-okafor-1.html

[Negrodamus]

You can't measure it.

It is not quantifiable. You can only measure production.

So you could argue that one player is better than another player today based on stats, but you can't use stats to argue why someone is going to be better in 3 years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So if we take their production (which is nearly identical) aside, why is Okafor and Simmons not the same level of talent? I'm legitimately interested. Is it because Simmons is tall, can handle a basketball well, and can pass at a high level?

Okafor has the ability to eventually be a player that you can toss the ball to at 15-20ft out and he'll have a near 60% chance at scoring (if we are to believe that he's going to maintain, or even improve on, the level he was at before the injury). You know who would want that kind of talent? Everyone in the NBA.

Again, Okafor's statistical production in college projected him out to be a mid first round pick while Simmons is at the top of his class. Different numbers project differently at the next level.

The bolded is ridiculous.

I know, right? That January stat (12 games) line of averaging 13 shots per game, scoring 17.2 ppg at a 60.9% clip was pretty ridiculous. His numbers fell off a bit in February (11 games) when he was at 18.5 ppg while shooting only 56.8%.

[Sixerscan]

So if we take their production (which is nearly identical) aside, why is Okafor and Simmons not the same level of talent? I'm legitimately interested. Is it because Simmons is tall, can handle a basketball well, and can pass at a high level?

Okafor has the ability to eventually be a player that you can toss the ball to at 15-20ft out and he'll have a near 60% chance at scoring (if we are to believe that he's going to maintain, or even improve on, the level he was at before the injury). You know who would want that kind of talent? Everyone in the NBA.

Again, Okafor's statistical production in college projected him out to be a mid first round pick while Simmons is at the top of his class. Different numbers project differently at the next level.

The bolded is ridiculous.

I know, right? That January stat (12 games) line of averaging 13 shots per game, scoring 17.2 ppg at a 60.9% clip was pretty ridiculous. His numbers fell off a bit in February (11 games) when he was at 18.5 ppg while shooting only 56.8%.

Those shots were all from him starting at 15-20 feet?

[Negrodamus]

Again, Okafor's statistical production in college projected him out to be a mid first round pick while Simmons is at the top of his class. Different numbers project differently at the next level.

The bolded is ridiculous.

I know, right? That January stat (12 games) line of averaging 13 shots per game, scoring 17.2 ppg at a 60.9% clip was pretty ridiculous. His numbers fell off a bit in February (11 games) when he was at 18.5 ppg while shooting only 56.8%.

Those shots were all from him starting at 15-20 feet?

toss the ball to at 15-20ft out

I'm not saying he's going to shoot it from there. I mean, he did sometimes, but most of the time he was grabbing the ball out there and went to work.

[76ciology]

He is pretty exclusively a half court player, that has the potential to be a great scorer.

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Actually, Jah is pretty good transition player for a center
(considering possessions per game and points per possessions among centers).
53 games, 65 possessions, 1.34points per possession

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/playtype/transition/?sort=PPP&dir=1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals

[Negrodamus]

You're right, I don't have the statistics on where he gets the ball. I've just been watching the "every FG from Okafor's rookie year" youtube clips this morning and it seems that he grabs the ball from out of the post and essentially runs an ISO on his man. I could have misconstrued how often that happens.

[Sixerscan]

I know, right? That January stat (12 games) line of averaging 13 shots per game, scoring 17.2 ppg at a 60.9% clip was pretty ridiculous. His numbers fell off a bit in February (11 games) when he was at 18.5 ppg while shooting only 56.8%.

Those shots were all from him starting at 15-20 feet?

toss the ball to at 15-20ft out

I'm not saying he's going to shoot it from there. I mean, he did sometimes, but most of the time he was grabbing the ball out there and went to work.

Right, I said "starting from 15-20 feet." I get what you are saying. That's completely false.

[Sixerscan]

You're right, I don't have the statistics on where he gets the ball. I've just been watching the "every FG from Okafor's rookie year" youtube clips this morning and it seems that he grabs the ball from out of the post and essentially runs an ISO on his man. I could have misconstrued how often that happens.

Well if you're only watching his makes I could see how that happens? It's cool, it's just kind of annoying how people causally throw out stats for Okafor like he's a lock to be one of the most efficent scorers in history of the game

[Negrodamus]

Those shots were all from him starting at 15-20 feet?

toss the ball to at 15-20ft out

I'm not saying he's going to shoot it from there. I mean, he did sometimes, but most of the time he was grabbing the ball out there and went to work.

Right, I said "starting from 15-20 feet." I get what you are saying. That's completely false.

I followed up with a comment above since I have no way of quantifying it.

Either way, the point still stands. He was scoring at will before his injury.

[Negrodamus]

You're right, I don't have the statistics on where he gets the ball. I've just been watching the "every FG from Okafor's rookie year" youtube clips this morning and it seems that he grabs the ball from out of the post and essentially runs an ISO on his man. I could have misconstrued how often that happens.

Well if you're only watching his makes I could see how that happens? It's cool, it's just kind of annoying how people causally throw out stats for Okafor like he's a lock to be one of the most efficent scorers in history of the game

It's true, but I was manly watching the third part (end of season) where roughly 60% of his FGA were going in the basket. I felt like that was a decent sample size.

[Unbreakable99]

I can't wait for our version of the death lineup when we have Simmons at Center and Saric at PF

[Winejk]

I can't wait for our version of the death lineup when we have Simmons at Center and Saric at PF

Our version of the death lineup is going to be something like Embiid, Okafor, Simmons and two shooters. Or maybe Simmons, Saric, two shooters and either Embiid or Okafor.

GSW death lineup is great because they have Steph Curry. Nobody else has Curry on their team or anybody that can do what Curry does, so trying to copy GSW's death lineup is fruitless.

[PhilasFinest]

Okafor's main drawback is that while he is not a good defender, he is also a pretty meh rebounder as well.

If Okafor was good at just one of rebounding/defense it would make his story a whole lot different imo.

He is still really young and his offensive skill still makes him a potential all star, but he needs to vastly improve in at least 1 of those areas to consider himself a potential stud. Certainly possible but if not, you could be looking at an Enes Kanter like situation.


I personally think Simmons will be fine defensively in the NBA, but even if he doesn't vastly improve, he is still an elite rebounder unlike Okafor

[Unbreakable99]

I can't wait for our version of the death lineup when we have Simmons at Center and Saric at PF

Our version of the death lineup is going to be something like Embiid, Okafor, Simmons and two shooters. Or maybe Simmons, Saric, two shooters and either Embiid or Okafor.

GSW death lineup is great because they have Steph Curry. Nobody else has Curry on their team or anybody that can do what Curry does, so trying to copy GSW's death lineup is fruitless.

Probably. I was sort of joking. Our death lineup could be our starting lineup with Embiid at center and Simmons as point forward. I hope GS tries to p,ah small ball against us and try to put Green at center guarding Embiid lol. He would get crushed. A healthy Embiid makes us unsmallballable. No team would rise going small against us with Embiid on the court. That would be suicide.