Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll

[Unbreakable99]

And DX moves Brandon Ingram to #1 -- Mocks him to PHI

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2016/

Lol. Laughable. DX is now a joke.

[Agnostifarian]

And DX moves Brandon Ingram to #1 -- Mocks him to PHI

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2016/

Lol. Laughable. DX is now a joke.

Looks like Ben will be the first to hire an agent.

[kriss73]

Legit concerns IMO.

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-ben-simmons-isn-t-the-top-prospect-in-the-2016-nba-draft-190023711.html

Simmons didn't show me the "IT" factor All year long

[XtremeDunkz]

I agree. I wonder if the Ben simmons lifers are watching full games of his. I have tried to catch as much LSU as possible, and I see less of "It" than I saw with Wiggins, and thats concerning since I didn't see much from Wiggins.

[marcush]

I don't blame people for not being high on Simmons and comparing him in less flattering terms to players such as Beasley. If you are projecting Simmons to play as a finisher, like a Beasley or Griffin were, then yes, he will not hold up to that level.

It just seems that people are having so much problem with the concept that he is actually a point guard. Where are the comparisons to Jason Kidd? Is it because he will guard 4s at the next level that is tough to project? Giannis is doing this role currently to devastating effect.

Simmons running high pnr, as the ball handler is what a good coach will run. Simmons calling for the ball in the post is what a bad coach will run.

[Ericb5]

What we are seeing with Simmons is that a player of his caliber that is planning on playing only a single year in college should NEVER go to a Podunk school.

He should have gone to Kansas, Kentucky, Duke, etc...

He was hurt by not being at a big time program.

I agree that there are a few negative things that he should be dinged for, but he is still head and shoulders above Ingram for me.




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[marcush]

I'm not even sure that any of those big schools would have done it any differently. College ball is such a restrictive, over coached, cluttered style of basketball. It's different in the pros, much more open, higher pace, more condusive to pnr.

[XtremeDunkz]

I'm not even sure that any of those big schools would have done it any differently. College ball is such a restrictive, over coached, cluttered style of basketball. It's different in the pros, much more open, higher pace, more condusive to pnr.

The college game has become more fun to watch for me over the last couple years, but that's for another thread.

[sixers23]

it seems to just get ignored how bad ingram has been lately as well

[Agnostifarian]

it seems to just get ignored how bad ingram has been lately as well

Ingram has been in a shooting slump but his play is far from bad. Realize he is asked to inbound the ball and bring it up the floor. He sets up the Duke offense which looks to get Allen the ball. Ingram is mostly second fiddle. Everyone associates Ingram with shooting which is selling him short on so many levels. He is an absolute weapon on defense where he can contest passing lanes, show and recover on PNR, run shooters off the 3 pt line and protect the rim. If he wasn't asked to play on the perimeter as much, his rebounding numbers would be much better. The kid has excellent man ball awareness and he's a joy to watch when he's playing D.

There is no doubt he will put on muscle. All he needs is a physique like Grant or Noel and he's a perennial all star. For Christ's sake, the kid has a better handle than Wiggins and the standing reach of Nerlens (one inch less for you, Eric5b). What you have in front of your eyes is a cross between AD & KD. Wait a few years and see. This kid could be worth three years of tanking!

[eyeatoma]

I've always respected Jonathan Givony's analysis of players on Draft Express. He did seem like he had an axe to grind with Simmons since the beginning of the year, and it almost seems like his hand was forced to rank him as the #1 prospoect on the DX's mockdraft earlier in the year. Well that has changed, DX has Ingram as the #1 pick again.

I've been reading about Ben Simmons' lack of jumpshot, but the characteristics that Givony lists on his article on Yahoo's the Vertical are worrisome.

How much do people buy Givony's claims? I might have shifted to Ingram after this article...Still willing to go back to Simmons (as I like his ceiling better), but Ingram's potential as a small KD is very tantalizing...

Quote from Givony's article on Yahoo's the Vertical... Click link http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-ben-simmons-isn-t-the-top-prospect-in-the-2016-nba-draft-190023711.html for full article...

Long before some of the loudest but most uninformed voices anointed Ben Simmons the next LeBron James or Magic Johnson, there was already a significant debate within NBA front offices about whether Simmons was even the consensus No. 1 overall pick in the 2016 NBA draft. As the flaws in Simmons’ game became more apparent for LSU this season, the question has never changed: Who’s No. 1 in June?
For several reasons, Simmons’ candidacy as the No. 1 overall prospect is in peril.

1. Simmons’ lack of competitiveness in some crucial games has raised questions about his character as a basketball player. While many top picks succumb to the NBA star lifestyle and emerge as average competitors, it’s rare to see that at the collegiate level. From Blake Griffin to Michael Beasley to Carmelo Anthony, those elite college players were rarely questioned about their drive during their collegiate careers. Simmons has displayed an apathy for defense, contact and delivering winning plays in crucial moments. Those troubling revelations in Simmons’ game are cause for concern among decision-makers on lottery teams with whom we’ve had contact.

[sixers23]

I disagree with him

[WVU]

I only want to take Simmons #1 overall if we are planning on using him as a PG. His playmaking, athleticism, and superior court vision would make him excel at the position. If they are drafting him to try and play the 3 or 4 I'm not for it. Otherwise I'm on the Ingram train too.

EDIT: The academic stuff and apathy on the court at times are also big red flags imo.

[MCtripDub]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. His issues/criticisms remind me so much for Andre Drummond's in UConn. Just wait until he gets in the NBA, he will thrive.

[PhilasFinest]

I do find it a bit worrisome that a kid thats supposedly going to be a superstar in the NBA and franchise changing player, couldn't do enough to even squeak his NCAA team into the tournament.

You really don't see a lot of these negatives in elite star players, especially early on against much inferior competition.


If he can't be engaged and dominate enough to take LSU to a tournament birth....Whats he going to do when he's playing for the Sixers and winning 20 games a year?

[BobThornton]

I don't know how Sixers fans can kill Okafor for his defense, and then go watch Simmons get WORKED in college games and excuse it.

[Jojothewhale]

I do find it a bit worrisome that a kid thats supposedly going to be a superstar in the NBA and franchise changing player, couldn't do enough to even squeak his NCAA team into the tournament.

You really don't see a lot of these negatives in elite star players, especially early on against much inferior competition

I'm not even a big Simmons fan relative to others, but some of these criticisms are crossing over into the absurd.

Question the effort or the shot, absolutely. As far as the defense goes, he was terrible in their 2-3, for sure, but when put into more common NBA situations like manning up or guard a pick and roll, he looked much more passable -- and that's all you need if he can be as efficient as he has the potential to be on the other end.

As far as making the tournament, we really do have to keep in mind that he was a freshman (and therefore only had one chance) on a team that in no way fit his strengths, especially after Hornsby went down. It's not as if he joined a juggernaut either, as they were a 9' seed who lost 2 of their 3 best players. While we don't have recent examples of #1 overalls missing the tourney, we do have true stars who never played a tourney game. Let's look at these #1s and see if we're comparing apples to apples.

I'll use the last 9 years because that eliminates Bogut and Bargnani, which just gets messy. 3 went to Kentucky, 1 each to Kansas and Duke -- each of those guys could have missed the year and their teams still would have made the cut. Rose had a very solid Memphis team with a first team All-American CD-R, some solid NCAA level vet bigs, and an all-universe coach in Calipari. Oden had Conley, Daequan Cook, and a good Senior in Ron Lewis. I think we can all agree to ignore Anthony Bennett ever happened, since no one has ever mistaken him for an elite prospect.

Basically it comes down to Blake Griffin if you want to make the team success argument, but I would take Willie Warren over Hornsby as a college player and you add a pretty damn solid NCAA big in Longar if you include Griffin's freshman year. I would argue Griffin's skill set was much more conducive to carrying substandard talent than Simmons, while the latter is almost designed to scale more exponentially as you improve the team around him.

The lack of team success is not a positive, but I don't see how it's a death knell at all.

[Negrodamus]

I do find it a bit worrisome that a kid thats supposedly going to be a superstar in the NBA and franchise changing player, couldn't do enough to even squeak his NCAA team into the tournament.

You really don't see a lot of these negatives in elite star players, especially early on against much inferior competition

I'm not even a big Simmons fan relative to others, but some of these criticisms are crossing over into the absurd.

Question the effort or the shot, absolutely. As far as the defense goes, he was terrible in their 2-3, for sure, but when put into more common NBA situations like manning up or guard a pick and roll, he looked much more passable -- and that's all you need if he can be as efficient as he has the potential to be on the other end.

As far as making the tournament, we really do have to keep in mind that he was a freshman (and therefore only had one chance) on a team that in no way fit his strengths, especially after Hornsby went down. It's not as if he joined a juggernaut either, as they were a 9' seed who lost 2 of their 3 best players. While we don't have recent examples of #1 overalls missing the tourney, we do have true stars who never played a tourney game. Let's look at these #1s and see if we're comparing apples to apples.

I'll use the last 9 years because that eliminates Bogut and Bargnani, which just gets messy. 3 went to Kentucky, 1 each to Kansas and Duke -- each of those guys could have missed the year and their teams still would have made the cut. Rose had a very solid Memphis team with a first team All-American CD-R, some solid NCAA level vet bigs, and an all-universe coach in Calipari. Oden had Conley, Daequan Cook, and a good Senior in Ron Lewis. I think we can all agree to ignore Anthony Bennett ever happened, since no one has ever mistaken him for an elite prospect.

Basically it comes down to Blake Griffin if you want to make the team success argument, but I would take Willie Warren over Hornsby as a college player and you add a pretty damn solid NCAA big in Longar if you include Griffin's freshman year. I would argue Griffin's skill set was much more conducive to carrying substandard talent than Simmons, while the latter is almost designed to scale more exponentially as you improve the team around him.

The lack of team success is not a positive, but I don't see how it's a death knell at all.

Why ignore Bennett? He at least took his mediocre UNLV team to the tourney.

[HartfordWhalers]

I've always respected Jonathan Givony's analysis of players on Draft Express. He did seem like he had an axe to grind with Simmons since the beginning of the year, and it almost seems like his hand was forced to rank him as the #1 prospoect on the DX's mockdraft earlier in the year. Well that has changed, DX has Ingram as the #1 pick again.

Merged the topic into the Ingram vs Simmons debate thread. Don't get me wrong, it was definitely worthy of a thread, but hopefully enough people saw the headline and now we can get the Simmons versus Ingram all in one place.

I fully expect this discussion will be half of the comments on here for the next two months until the lottery happens.

[HartfordWhalers]

I would like to add a poll; Simmons or Ingram?

Done. Sorry I missed that. If you want different options -- (Ingram for fit reasons, Ingram as bpa, etc) let me know.