2016-2017 College Basketball / '17 NBA Draft Thread

Kobblehead · Post #2761 » by **Kobblehead** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:49 pm

He rendered Fultz into an inefficient chucker in their showdown.

Slizeezyc · Post #2762 » by **Slizeezyc** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:51 pm

Kobblehead wrote:He rendered Fultz into an inefficient chucker in their showdown.

Yeah him and Kadeem Allen the only two who have been able to slow down Fultz this season.

Kobblehead · Post #2763 » by **Kobblehead** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:07 pm

I know people on here have been keeping tabs on SMU for certain prospects.

A less notable player on that team that I think possesses some intriguing projectables is Sterling Brown.

One could argue he's to SMU what Danny Green was to North Carolina.

Negrodamus · Post #2764 » by **Negrodamus** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:33 pm

Kobblehead wrote:I know people on here have been keeping tabs on SMU for certain prospects.

A less notable player on that team that I think possesses some intriguing projectables is Sterling Brown.

One could argue he's to SMU what Danny Green was to North Carolina.

This is going to be a fun game. Cincy already lighting it up from deep. SMU is coming back. Two impressive teams.

Negrodamus · Post #2765 » by **Negrodamus** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:40 pm

Evans is going nuts. I know you, Kobble, were saying he's been lazy in the times you've watched him, but if he is good as a focused defender, then he's someone we should be targeting. Unconscious from 3 today.

Negrodamus · Post #2766 » by **Negrodamus** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:47 pm

SMU is a better team, but Cincy looks like they can pile it on in bunches. SMU drew 2 shot clock violations on Cincy at the end of the half there. Strong defensive showing by them. Ojeleye is also putting on a show on the offensive end. Tied at 28 at halftime.

Kobblehead · Post #2767 » by **Kobblehead** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:48 pm

I might try to catch the second half. Evans has the perfect size and build for the 2-guard position. Even has a good skill level, to boot. Can't help but come away wanting more from him when I tune in. Scoring volume too low, defensive intensity seems sporadic. Wonder if he has the commitment and compete level to bloom in the NBA.

Negrodamus · Post #2768 » by **Negrodamus** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:19 pm

Cincinnati comes out hot, and now SMU is closing the gap. Cincy needs to go back to Evans because everyone else is screwing up.

Shake and Ojeleye are red hot right now.

Negrodamus · Post #2769 » by **Negrodamus** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:29 pm

Cincy can't stop the bleeding. This is why I think SMU is the scariest team in the country right now.

Negrodamus · Post #2770 » by **Negrodamus** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:35 pm

SMU is running this offense to perfect and their defense has been stout. This team is just gelling as a unit.

Sampagne · Post #2771 » by **Sampagne** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:48 pm

surprisingly a close game, UCLA up 32-27

Lonzo: 11pts 5reb 2ast

Sampagne · Post #2772 » by **Sampagne** » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:52 pm

Lonzo finishes with 22pts 9ast 7reb

HotelVitale · Post #2773 » by **HotelVitale** » Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:24 pm

SparksFly87 wrote:Allstar calliber wings are hard to find in the NBA . Good point guards are a dime a dozen..

You're making that way too simple, it's an old cliche which hasn't really been true for years. These guys are very good PGs: Westbrook, Wall, Kemba, IT2, CP3, Lowry, Lillard, Curry, Kyrie, Conley. And these guys are very good SFs: Kawhi, Lebron, Hayward, P George, KD, J Butler, Carmelo.

The PG position was more stacked a few years ago but players have fallen off (Deron, D Rose, Lawson, etc) and basically no young PGs have stepped up big over the past 5 years. Also, PGs have the ball in their hands the most so it makes sense that a good PG would put up big #s and draw a lot of attention. The role of a SF is smaller these days, unless they're their teams primary creator (like most of the guys on my list above). I'd agree that there are more okay PGs than okay SFs but it's not like it was like 6 years ago.

Overall, it seems clear that you like Jackson the most, so you can just argue that position and not make it about positional scarcity. Getting an all-star PG would be much better than getting an okay SF, and the draft is so unpredictable--and the success rate so narrow--that we can't let factors like that make decisions for us.

HotelVitale · Post #2774 » by **HotelVitale** » Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:59 pm

Negrodamus wrote:Here's winning basketball in the NBA...Oh, he also had 28 pts, 4 rebs, 4 assists last night (1 turnover, 0 fouls). It's comical that he's not even on the Draftexpress mock draft.

Just curious what you're seeing him as in the NBA. Based on this video, it looks like he basically just gets fouled by using his body, not especially quick or skilled, doesn't appear to finish well through contact either. I'm not saying he sucks or anything, looks like a very good college player with great size who has a chance to be a NBA player.

Negrodamus · Post #2775 » by **Negrodamus** » Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:32 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
Negrodamus wrote:Here's winning basketball in the NBA...Oh, he also had 28 pts, 4 rebs, 4 assists last night (1 turnover, 0 fouls). It's comical that he's not even on the Draftexpress mock draft.
Just curious what you're seeing him as in the NBA. Based on this video, it looks like he basically just gets fouled by using his body, not especially quick or skilled, doesn't appear to finish well through contact either. I'm not saying he sucks or anything, looks like a very good college player with great size who has a chance to be a NBA player.

I think drawing fouls is one of the most important parts of the NBA game.

Besides that, he grabbed how many offensive rebounds to will his team to a victory? They lost, but he kept them alive for multiple overtimes because of that determination. He also was moved to post defense late in the game because their bigs fouled out. Managed to play pretty stellar defense regardless.

This wasn't a situation where he got hot as a shooter and kept chucking. He carried his entire team despite them playing like garbage. If you want to see more of him finishing shots, watch other games. He's shooting 57% at the rim which isn't elite, but it's not awful.

HotelVitale · Post #2776 » by **HotelVitale** » Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:36 pm

Negrodamus wrote:
HotelVitale wrote:
Negrodamus wrote:Here's winning basketball in the NBA...Oh, he also had 28 pts, 4 rebs, 4 assists last night (1 turnover, 0 fouls). It's comical that he's not even on the Draftexpress mock draft.
Just curious what you're seeing him as in the NBA. Based on this video, it looks like he basically just gets fouled by using his body, not especially quick or skilled, doesn't appear to finish well through contact either. I'm not saying he sucks or anything, looks like a very good college player with great size who has a chance to be a NBA player.
I think drawing fouls is one of the most important parts of the NBA game. Besides that, he grabbed how many offensive rebounds to will his team to a victory? l.

That's what I was saying: he was effective in these highlights for things he definitely won't be able to do in the NBA. He's not quick and doesn't take great angles, so he won't draw fouls like that in the NBA. Those drives didn't look like consistent NBA moves, they're not go-to moves at the next level. And he won't be big enough to barrel in for offensive rebounds because almost everyone on the court will be as big or bigger than him in the NBA--the opposite of the NCAA.

Plus, even if he's a decent driver with heart and can get some boards, that's probably not enough to get you more than spot minutes in the NBA. Again, I'm not saying he's a no-chance NBA player, I just don't see anything to get excited about in those vids. More of a guy to keep an eye on, see how his game develops.

Negrodamus · Post #2777 » by **Negrodamus** » Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:54 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
Negrodamus wrote:
HotelVitale wrote: Just curious what you're seeing him as in the NBA. Based on this video, it looks like he basically just gets fouled by using his body, not especially quick or skilled, doesn't appear to finish well through contact either. I'm not saying he sucks or anything, looks like a very good college player with great size who has a chance to be a NBA player.
I think drawing fouls is one of the most important parts of the NBA game. Besides that, he grabbed how many offensive rebounds to will his team to a victory? l.

That's what I was saying: he was effective in these highlights for things he definitely won't be able to do in the NBA. He's not quick and doesn't take great angles, so he won't draw fouls like that in the NBA. Those drives didn't look like consistent NBA moves, they're not go-to moves at the next level. And he won't be big enough to barrel in for offensive rebounds because almost everyone on the court will be as big or bigger than him in the NBA--the opposite of the NCAA.

Plus, even if he's a decent driver with heart and can get some boards, that's probably not enough to get you more than spot minutes in the NBA. Again, I'm not saying he's a no-chance NBA player, I just don't see anything to get excited about in those vids. More of a guy to keep an eye on, see how his game develops.

Okay. You can take that stance. The "yea, he can do it in college, but not in the NBA" excuse is a bit lost on me. He's 6'5 with a 6'9 wingspan and has thrown down over Kentucky players. He's been one of the best defenders in the country.

And offensive rebounds are not a matter of size, but rather determination. I think it was Larry Bird that said "most rebounds happen below the rim".

Arsenal · Post #2778 » by **Arsenal** » Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:07 pm

Thornwell looks like a man among boys at times (bully ball) which is not surprising as he's a 22 year old senior. He'll lose a lot of those advantages in the NBA. With that said, I'd certainly look at him in the late 1st or 2nd round if he's still available.

HotelVitale · Post #2779 » by **HotelVitale** » Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:23 pm

Negrodamus wrote: Okay. You can take that stance. The "yea, he can do it in college, but not in the NBA" excuse is a bit lost on me. He's 6'5 with a 6'9 wingspan and has thrown down over Kentucky players. He's been one of the best defenders in the country. And offensive rebounds are not a matter of size, but rather determination. I think it was Larry Bird that said "most rebounds happen below the rim".

That's not really my stance. Almost every single player does stuff in the NCAA that isn't possible in the NBA, everyone's of course going to be a different player playing against guys who are smaller and slower and weaker on average. If you played high school ball, for example, you know that some players are totally dominant in JV but are role players on varsity, some are dominant on varsity but can't crack even a D3 college team, etc.

Point is, every prospect has to be seen in terms of NBA projectable skills and abilities. In that video, Thornwell isn't making NBA moves; that's not to say for sure he doesn't have them or can't develop them, but those drives look to me like he's just waltzing towards the lane fairly slowly and having guys hack at him. That's not a projectable NBA ability, or at least not one he'll be able to do all game--like say Tyreke Evans, who's the same size but has great quickness and devastating foot work (and still isn't that great in the NBA).

(I also sincerely hope you don't think that offensive rebounds are really about 'determination, not size.' It definitely helps to have determination--and you screwed without a basic nose for the ball--but you need size to be able to get them, end of story. Real NBA players are huge and do the correct fundamental thing like 90% of the time--coaches won't let them play otherwise--so that advantage will dry up pretty quickly (though a good motor of course always helps some.))

Negrodamus · Post #2780 » by **Negrodamus** » Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:38 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
Negrodamus wrote: Okay. You can take that stance. The "yea, he can do it in college, but not in the NBA" excuse is a bit lost on me. He's 6'5 with a 6'9 wingspan and has thrown down over Kentucky players. He's been one of the best defenders in the country. And offensive rebounds are not a matter of size, but rather determination. I think it was Larry Bird that said "most rebounds happen below the rim".
That's not really my stance. Almost every single player does stuff in the NCAA that isn't possible in the NBA, everyone's of course going to be a different player playing against guys who are smaller and slower and weaker on average. If you played high school ball, for example, you know that some players are totally dominant in JV but are role players on varsity, some are dominant on varsity but can't crack even a D3 college team, etc.

Point is, every prospect has to be seen in terms of NBA projectable skills and abilities. In that video, Thornwell isn't making NBA moves; that's not to say for sure he doesn't have them or can't develop them, but those drives look to me like he's just waltzing towards the lane fairly slowly and having guys hack at him. That's not a projectable NBA ability, or at least not one he'll be able to do all game--like say Tyreke Evans, who's the same size but has great quickness and devastating foot work (and still isn't that great in the NBA).

(I also sincerely hope you don't think that offensive rebounds are really about 'determination, not size.' It definitely helps to have determination--and you screwed without a basic nose for the ball--but you need size to be able to get them, end of story. Real NBA players are huge and do the correct fundamental thing like 90% of the time--coaches won't let them play otherwise--so that advantage will dry up pretty quickly (though a good motor of course always helps some.))

And naturally we're only talking about offense here, right? We're not acknowledging the dominate defense he plays, which is frequently a fatal flaw with evaluating prospects on here.

I'm not looking to make Sindarius our go-to ball handler. He's a role player on offense; spot up shooting with occasional driving if the opportunity presents itself.

And yes, I am saying that. You know who agrees with me? 6'6 Charles Barkley, 6'7 Wes Unseld, 6'7 Dennis Rodman, 6'7 Ben Wallace, 6'7 Shawn Marion, etc etc. All those guys are top 50 offensive rebounders all time from various eras. There's nothing special about them besides determination.