Trade Iguodala

[dbodner]

EPM has to be the greatest stat ever because it enumerates the exact way that I have been looking at players since I was a child. I always took into account their total effectiveness.

All the while ignoring the effectiveness of the player they're defending.

Hence PER differential.

EFF is severely flawed. Points and assists are awarded the same value. It severely overrates points and fgm, and not so much on efficiency. Defense? Yeah, not so much. Wins produced and PER are far superior in evaluating player contributions, and PER diff does a far better job of encompassing the entire scope of the game, which does include both offense and defense last time I checked.

[ahwi_quacoe]

the sixers need to clear house , use the players they have now to clean out the garbage and start a fresh. All this Cap room talk is a waste of time , we would go back to a an over achieveing team if we ever did anything with a Free Agent

[SendEm]

This PER accounts for how often a player is scored on by everyone he guards?Or is it everyone that he is "matched up against" at the beginning of the game?
It really doesn't matter because Iggy gets torched by the elite players at his position so his defense is overrated. It's not like you can count on him to shut down anyone that can really play as if he were Bruce Bowen, Eric Snow, and Scottie Pippen in their prime...

[SendEm]

the sixers need to clear house , use the players they have now to clean out the garbage and start a fresh. All this Cap room talk is a waste of time , we would go back to a an over achieveing team if we ever did anything with a Free Agent

I said the same thing.

You don't start to build your franchise by committing big money to what would be the 4th best player on a Championship team. Iggy is such a role player.

[dbodner]

This PER accounts for how often a player is scored on by everyone he guards?Or is it everyone that he is "matched up against" at the beginning of the game?
It really doesn't matter because Iggy gets torched by the elite players at his position so his defense is overrated. It's not like you can count on him to shut down anyone that can really play as if he were Bruce Bowen, Eric Snow, and Scottie Pippen in their prime...

Who he's guarding at the time of the game. They track the games. it's not a box score thing.

I guess SendEm's memory off the top of his head is better than the game charters, though. Because if Iggy got torched defensively, and couldn't score at all himself, he certainly wouldn't have a PER differential of +6.5.

[Mik317]

why do you guys what us to trade Iggy so bad. For his flaws he isn't that horrible. He can pass well, he plays defense and he is athleticas hell, add to that he's 23 years old and is still improving. I don't get it.....what did he do to you guys to make you so hateful towards him?

[SendEm]

-= original quote snipped =-



Who he's guarding at the time of the game. They track the games. it's not a box score thing.

I guess SendEm's memory off the top of his head is better than the game charters, though. Because if Iggy got torched defensively, and couldn't score at all himself, he certainly wouldn't have a PER differential of +6.5.

Yes because statistics don't absolutely define good play, it's just numbers. If a man scores on Iggy EVERYTIME his team needs a bucket, that equates to torched in my book whether he scores 65 points or 8. The game is played to WIN. Tayshawn Prince iced the game for the Pistons on Iggy's defense with ease. That's just the most recent example.The better players don't have much difficulty playing against Iggy's defense. Iggy rarely even guards the best player every night. It's been proven that he can't guard anyone on the Pistons.

[bebopdeluxe]

Sixerscan:

You kno, I initially started this post with a smart-azz response, but I'm not going to go there.

First of all - wth all due respect - I honestly do not know where you get off telling me that trading Iggy for a #1 option is impossible or unrealistic...whether you think trading Iggy for Redd is a good idea or not is not the issue - the issue is: could Redd be a #1 option for a team (I say yes), and could Iggy be used in a package to get him?

I think so.

I think Sixer Fixer made a good suggestion with Gasol/Memphis...and even with Amare, why couldn't they do two separate trades: 1) trade Amare (and his contract) to get Iggy and other things, and 2) move one of their other swing guys to get more of a defense first PF?

All of these are deals that could happen...and could get us #1 guys in return. You don't like the deals? That's fine. But to summarily dismiss them as simply ouside the realm of possibility is unfair, in my opinion. Phoenix has shown a desire to reduce payroll in the past - why wouldn't they consider doing it again with a team who could take on more contract? Perhaps (after another early exit this spring) they decide to get more of a defensive orientation? Perhaps Amare pizzes in Nash's locker and they want to get rid of him?

Whatever.

And I intentionally added the "have a nice day" and to take an edge off of what I said...even though I thought that what you said was a bit much. And I think that the "ummm...okay" stuff is pretty mild versus what you said to me...but I'll make sure that I play it straight with you from now on. And I don't appreciate you saying that virtually all of my posts have some kind of condescending remark attached to it. That is simply not true. In fact, I frequently will hop into a thread simply to let somebody know that I agree with their thread, and that it is a good post (which I don't seemany people doing around here, to be honest).

[Mik317]

you know what your right......Iggy is the worst player I've ever seen. in Fact your right about everything. I mean a guy who obviously never played ball, professionally knows what he's talking about. your right SendEm.

[The Sixer Fixer]

I find it extreemly hard to believe that someone can accuratly track how many points a player directly gives up in a game. With all the defensive switching that happens, or guys doubling other players and such, how do you accuratly determine who gave up the basket?

For example, go back to the Spurs game when Manu was hitting all those 3's late. He was Iguodala's man....problem is Andre was doubling down on Duncan. Were those 3's charged to Iguodala or someone else because they did not rotate quick enough to pick up Manu?

If they were charged to Andre, it may not be entirely fair since I'm sure Cheeks was the one who made the call to have the wing on that side of the floor double down. If they were charged to someone else, is that fair since it really wasn't their guy? Also, there's so much switching that happens off screens and such that is cause guys be matched up against someone who isn't "their man". Like if Duncan sets a high screen, rolls down and gets an entry pass in the post...what if one of our guards has to cover him down there....do those pts go against the guard?

You have fast break pts where say Iguodala takes a shot (and misses) and as the shot goes up, his guy run down court the opposite way to get the long outlet pass and basket. It's not Andre's fault....that player becomes the responsibility of whoever is closest to mid-court.

There was too many variables that makes tracking who gave up pts impossible and very flawed IMO.

[SendEm]

Yeah that's why EPM is more effective than PER. EPM used with actually watching the game and seeing how effective the player is defensively is a more logical method than just solely relying on statistics. If PER literally accounted for EVERY SINGLE defensive possession for a player then I would go with it as a valid statistic. But according to the board PER just accounts for the player matchups at the beginning of the game which is foolish because sometimes players get switched off of each other after a couple of minutes never to guard one another again.

[Sixerscan]

I find it extreemly hard to believe that someone can accuratly track how many points a player directly gives up in a game. With all the defensive switching that happens, or guys doubling other players and such, how do you accuratly determine who gave up the basket?

It can't do it perfectly, but it's better than other stats that don't do it at all.

Yeah that's why EPM is more effective than PER. EPM used with actually watching the game and seeing how effective the player is defensively is a more logical method than just solely relying on statistics.

Are you serious? Who said anything about solely relying on stats?

Having a statistical measurement+Watching the game > Just Watching the Game

Comprende?

If PER literally accounted for EVERY SINGLE defensive possession for a player then I would go with it as a valid statistic. But according to the board PER just accounts for the player matchups at the beginning of the game which is foolish because sometimes players get switched off of each other after a couple of minutes never to guard one another again.

People who work for 82games.com literally watch every possession and check off who was guarding the person that scored, assisted rebounded or w/e. I'd imagine it takes a very long time and is a bitch to do, but they do it.

And once again, even if we throw all this out, anyone with half a brain knows that points don't equal rebounds don't equal assists don't equal steals don't equal blocks. PER, unlike the nba.com thing, takes that into account. So PER wins.

[dbodner]

Yes because statistics don't absolutely define good play, it's just numbers

Hence why I said that in my post. I'm talking about finding the BEST metric, not about finding the absolute metric.

And you're the one who brought up stats and tried to use which "precisely takes into account their total effectiveness" and is "the exact way you've been looking at players since you were a child" (your words, not mine).

If PER literally accounted for EVERY SINGLE defensive possession for a player then I would go with it as a valid statistic. But according to the board PER just accounts for the player matchups at the beginning of the game which is foolish because sometimes players get switched off of each other after a couple of minutes never to guard one another again.

Did you read what I posted? That's the exact opposite of how I said PER was determined.

PER differential might not determine defensive culpability perfectly. In fact, it's impossible to do so. But it's far better than using a stat as your basis for an argument (as you did) that completely ignores the defensive part of a game. PER differential compares Iguodala's production with the person he's directly guarding. EFF measures offensive production solely, and does so with serious deficiencies. EFF looks at one part of the game (personal productivity) and does so with serious flaws, as Sixerscan and I have pointed out. You can try to use that as proof, but that doesn't mean I (or anyone else) have to accept it. And I most certainly don't. You can ignore Iguodala's PER differential if you wish, but I give it far more credence than EFF.

[SendEm]

So to bring it on home, Iggy looks even more ordinary and unworthy of $57 million when EPM and PER are taken into account over just the proverbial "He's one of only 6 players in the league to average 19 5 and 5."

[dbodner]

So to bring it on home, Iggy looks even more ordinary and unworthy of $57 million when EPM and PER are taken into account

Not really.

You've recently compared him to Jamario Moon (+0.0 PER diff), Raja Bell (-3.4), Ronnie Brewer (+2.0). Guys who don't come close to comparing to Iguodala. If you look at PER differential across the league, a +6.5 would put Iguodala as the 37th best player in the league. I don't think many of us argue he's much higher. We simply argue that he's not crap.

[Sixerscan]

PER says he's a top 40ish player. Top 40ish players get paid about $11 million a year.

[SendEm]

So to bring it on home, Iggy looks even more ordinary and unworthy of $57 million when EPM and PER are taken into account

Not really.

You've recently compared him to Jamario Moon (+0.0 PER diff), Raja Bell (-3.4), Ronnie Brewer (+2.0). Guys who don't come close to comparing to Iguodala. If you look at PER differential across the league, a +6.5 would put Iguodala as the 37th best player in the league. I don't think many of us argue he's much higher. We simply argue that he's not crap.

I have most recently compared him to Josh Howard, Gerald Wallace, Carmelo Anthony, Kobe Bryant, Manu Ginobili. That's how I introduced talk of the efficiency per minute stat. Raja Bell? Boy you went back a couple of weeks with that "recently" didn't you? Just go back a few posts in this thread and deal with TODAY and not "recently." Thank you.

[Sixerscan]

Wait. Iguodala isn't as good as Kobe Bryant? This is ridiculous!

[dbodner]

You compared him to Jamal Crawford, Ronnie Brewer, Gerald Wallace and Mike Dunleavy today. You compared him to Kareem Rush, Kelenna Azubuike, Jamario Moon, Roger Mason Jr today.

You've been signed up on this board for just barely 40 days. Any comparisons you've made about Iguodala classify as recently, and are valid when debating your opinion on that player. Clearly, people aren't debating your points that Josh Howard, Gerald Wallace, Carmelo Anthony, Kobe Bryant and Manu Ginobili are better than Iguodala.

Thank you.

[SendEm]

PER says he's a top 40ish player. Top 40ish players get paid about $11 million a year.

Manu Ginoboli is top 40 and doesn't get paid $11. Tony Parker is top 40 and doesn't get paid $11.
Gerald Wallace
Josh Howard
Richard Hamilton
Tayshawn Prince
Stephen Jackson
Corey Maggette
Mike Miller
Ron Artest
Kevin Martin
David West

All are players that are better than Iguodala who aren't making $11 miilion. You knew that your post was BS when you added the -ish suffix...