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Where is Nerlens?

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Re: Where is Nerlens? 

Post#301 » by spikeslovechild » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:57 pm

eagereyez wrote:So let me throw out a hypothetical scenario: The Sixers trade Noel, and Embiid goes down. Do you still believe you have a championship caliber team with Okafor anchoring the defense? It's going to be impossible to hide him defensively playing next to Saric/Simmons, neither of whom are projected to be elite defenders. The team is doomed in that scenario.


Still believe we have a championship caliber team? I've read this argument numerous times done in a variety of ways and for the life of me I don't understand it.

For one why are we worried about a championship caliber team at this point. More to the point does anyone seriously think Noel is that much better then Okafor that he is capable of delivering us a championship.

It sort of reminds us of those who are worried about efficiency of having an offense which depends heavily on post play. Why? Are we worried about taking away touches from Henderson and Sauskas? Get me Lebron or Durant and then I'll start worrying. Otherwise I'd rather focus on the Sixers getting the most of the roster they currently have rather then worrying about some fantasy to be determined championship team full of elite SG and SF that you would rather give the possessions to.
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Re: Where is Nerlens? 

Post#302 » by Ericb5 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:20 pm

spikeslovechild wrote:
eagereyez wrote:So let me throw out a hypothetical scenario: The Sixers trade Noel, and Embiid goes down. Do you still believe you have a championship caliber team with Okafor anchoring the defense? It's going to be impossible to hide him defensively playing next to Saric/Simmons, neither of whom are projected to be elite defenders. The team is doomed in that scenario.


Still believe we have a championship caliber team? I've read this argument numerous times done in a variety of ways and for the life of me I don't understand it.

For one why are we worried about a championship caliber team at this point. More to the point does anyone seriously think Noel is that much better then Okafor that he is capable of delivering us a championship.

It sort of reminds us of those who are worried about efficiency of having an offense which depends heavily on post play. Why? Are we worried about taking away touches from Henderson and Sauskas? Get me Lebron or Durant and then I'll start worrying. Otherwise I'd rather focus on the Sixers getting the most of the roster they currently have rather then worrying about some fantasy to be determined championship team full of elite SG and SF that you would rather give the possessions to.


I'm with you, but I think what he really meant was whether or not we would have a championship caliber ceiling anymore.

Two potential superstars gives us a really high ceiling, and 1 potential superstar gives us a lower ceiling.

My take is basically that if we have Simmons and Embiid then we are golden. If we only have Simmons then we are still in pretty darn good shape, and if we have neither of them then we are just like most of the other bottom feeders.
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Re: Where is Nerlens? 

Post#303 » by 76ciology » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:44 pm

eagereyez wrote:So let me throw out a hypothetical scenario: The Sixers trade Noel, and Embiid goes down. Do you still believe you have a championship caliber team with Okafor anchoring the defense? It's going to be impossible to hide him defensively playing next to Saric/Simmons, neither of whom are projected to be elite defenders. The team is doomed in that scenario.


Why are evaluating these guys as finished products? We got to believe in player development or else every player on this team will really disappoint you. Noel can't shoot and rebound. Saric can't defend and slow. Simmons can't shoot and defend. Embiid is one ankle injury from retiring. The team is doomed if all our players didn't improve on their weakness, that's for sure. We need to root for Noel to be stronger and to be a better shooter. For Jah to make better reads and our coaching staff to find schemes to hide him on D (if you think he's bad). Simmons NEEDS to be a very good defender, specially when you are just projecting him to be an average scorer/shooter, that is the reason why Rubio is still in the NBA and not playing with Sergio in euroleague. Saric needs to be a better defender and it's non negotiable. And the thing is.. Players usually become better defenders as they make better reads with experience and having better NBA physique.

With your question "Do you still believe you have a championship caliber team with Okafor anchoring the defense?", it really depends on a lot of variable. I mean, even if Embiid or Noel anchors a defense but he plays with Stauskas, Canaan and Wroten, they aren't going to make the play-offs. But say Okafor plays with Ibaka, Durant, Westbrook and Roberson or he replaces LMA with the Spurs, then I think the Okafor line-up is more likely to win a championship.

And quite frankly, nowadays offense is premium and centers don't flatout (in terms of minutes + impact) anchor a team's defense anymore and that is the biggest misconception IMO. Teams just put their best offensive scorers on the floor and let everyone play defense with their length and mobility with all the switching and rotations AS A TEAM.

Like I said, OKC was even able to hide Kanter on defense (not saying he's a good defender; To avoid any arguments.. OKC wasn't a bad defense when he's on court) and make him an effective player in the play-offs.

A team being good or bad on D is not because of a single player. It depends on the players and the scheme he plays with. So that question of yours I think did a "nice try good effort" job in trying to be rhetoric.

And with the team we have right now, and with a good defender version of Simmons and Embiid, they don't need Noel's D anymore than Jah's scoring.
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Re: Where is Nerlens? 

Post#304 » by LloydFree » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:10 pm

Sixerscan wrote:
LloydFree wrote:
eagereyez wrote:So let me throw out a hypothetical scenario: The Sixers trade Noel, and Embiid goes down. Do you still believe you have a championship caliber team with Okafor anchoring the defense? It's going to be impossible to hide him defensively playing next to Saric/Simmons, neither of whom are projected to be elite defenders. The team is doomed in that scenario.


We waste the next 8 years winning 25-35 games per year like the Nets and Magic, unless we get lucky and the 2017 pick becomes the next Jordan.


So you need Michael Jordan in addition to Simmons okafor and Saric to win more than 35 games? How do all those other teams pull it off?

Those other teams that win, either have Jordan, Lebron, Kobe OR a Center that plays Defense and grabs defensive rebounds.
Fischella wrote:I think none of you guys that are pro-Embiid no how basketball works today.. is way easier to win it all with Omer Asik than Olajuwon.
Actually if you ask me which Center I want for my perfect championship caliber team, I will chose Asik hands down
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Re: Where is Nerlens? 

Post#305 » by spikeslovechild » Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:31 pm

Good thing we have Embiid then.

In any case, anyone have an answer to thread title where is Noel?
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Re: Where is Nerlens? 

Post#306 » by Sixerscan » Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:40 pm

LloydFree wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:
LloydFree wrote:
We waste the next 8 years winning 25-35 games per year like the Nets and Magic, unless we get lucky and the 2017 pick becomes the next Jordan.


So you need Michael Jordan in addition to Simmons okafor and Saric to win more than 35 games? How do all those other teams pull it off?

Those other teams that win, either have Jordan, Lebron, Kobe OR a Center that plays Defense and grabs defensive rebounds.


Sorry this take is just too piping hot. The nets won over 35 games with brook Lopez as their center 3 years in a row, al Jefferson has been the center on playoff teams, among literally dozens of other examples.
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Re: Where is Nerlens? 

Post#307 » by LloydFree » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:00 pm

Sixerscan wrote:
LloydFree wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:
So you need Michael Jordan in addition to Simmons okafor and Saric to win more than 35 games? How do all those other teams pull it off?

Those other teams that win, either have Jordan, Lebron, Kobe OR a Center that plays Defense and grabs defensive rebounds.


Sorry this take is just too piping hot. The nets won over 35 games with brook Lopez as their center 3 years in a row, al Jefferson has been the center on playoff teams, among literally dozens of other examples.

Well, my original quote was we are the Nets (or Magic) for the next 8 years...

The 35 game comment is not literal. It is making the argument for a ceiling of Mediocrity, or less than championship caliber. Again, this is just my opinion based on what I've seen the last 35 years:. you are not going to be a contender in the NBA, unless you have a good-great defender/rebounder at Center, unless you have a Jordan or Lebron level player on your team.
Fischella wrote:I think none of you guys that are pro-Embiid no how basketball works today.. is way easier to win it all with Omer Asik than Olajuwon.
Actually if you ask me which Center I want for my perfect championship caliber team, I will chose Asik hands down
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Re: Where is Nerlens? 

Post#308 » by Sixerscan » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:05 pm

LloydFree wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:
LloydFree wrote:Those other teams that win, either have Jordan, Lebron, Kobe OR a Center that plays Defense and grabs defensive rebounds.


Sorry this take is just too piping hot. The nets won over 35 games with brook Lopez as their center 3 years in a row, al Jefferson has been the center on playoff teams, among literally dozens of other examples.

Well, my original quote was we are the Nets (or Magic) for the next 8 years...

The 35 game comment is not literal. It is making the argument for a ceiling of Mediocrity, or less than championship caliber. Again, this is just my opinion based on what I've seen the last 35 years:. you are not going to be a contender in the NBA, unless you have a good-great defender/rebounder at Center, unless you have a Jordan or Lebron level player on your team.


Ok well there's like a 20 win difference between 35 games and being a contender. I don't know if I'm quite on board with this new take but it's reasonable. Certainly if Embiid isn't healthy you have to find another superstar elsewhere beyond Simmons.
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Re: Where is Nerlens? 

Post#309 » by Ericb5 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:25 pm

Sixerscan wrote:
LloydFree wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:
Sorry this take is just too piping hot. The nets won over 35 games with brook Lopez as their center 3 years in a row, al Jefferson has been the center on playoff teams, among literally dozens of other examples.

Well, my original quote was we are the Nets (or Magic) for the next 8 years...

The 35 game comment is not literal. It is making the argument for a ceiling of Mediocrity, or less than championship caliber. Again, this is just my opinion based on what I've seen the last 35 years:. you are not going to be a contender in the NBA, unless you have a good-great defender/rebounder at Center, unless you have a Jordan or Lebron level player on your team.


Ok well there's like a 20 win difference between 35 games and being a contender. I don't know if I'm quite on board with this new take but it's reasonable. Certainly if Embiid isn't healthy you have to find another superstar elsewhere beyond Simmons.


2017 has a number of potential stars at the top of the draft, at least as it looks now. Great time to potentially have 2 top 5 picks.


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Re: Where is Nerlens? 

Post#310 » by eagereyez » Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:19 pm

spikeslovechild wrote:
eagereyez wrote:So let me throw out a hypothetical scenario: The Sixers trade Noel, and Embiid goes down. Do you still believe you have a championship caliber team with Okafor anchoring the defense? It's going to be impossible to hide him defensively playing next to Saric/Simmons, neither of whom are projected to be elite defenders. The team is doomed in that scenario.


Still believe we have a championship caliber team? I've read this argument numerous times done in a variety of ways and for the life of me I don't understand it.

For one why are we worried about a championship caliber team at this point. More to the point does anyone seriously think Noel is that much better then Okafor that he is capable of delivering us a championship.

It sort of reminds us of those who are worried about efficiency of having an offense which depends heavily on post play. Why? Are we worried about taking away touches from Henderson and Sauskas? Get me Lebron or Durant and then I'll start worrying. Otherwise I'd rather focus on the Sixers getting the most of the roster they currently have rather then worrying about some fantasy to be determined championship team full of elite SG and SF that you would rather give the possessions to.

It's a pretty simple question. Do you believe that a defensive front court of Simmons/Okafor is good enough to win a championship? The answer to that question should be obvious. The reason I ask it is because the entire point of the process is to become a contender. It's not to make the playoffs as the 4-6 seed and get bounced year in and year out. Don't have to tank 4 years for that.
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Re: Where is Nerlens? 

Post#311 » by spikeslovechild » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:06 pm

eagereyez wrote:
spikeslovechild wrote:
eagereyez wrote:So let me throw out a hypothetical scenario: The Sixers trade Noel, and Embiid goes down. Do you still believe you have a championship caliber team with Okafor anchoring the defense? It's going to be impossible to hide him defensively playing next to Saric/Simmons, neither of whom are projected to be elite defenders. The team is doomed in that scenario.


Still believe we have a championship caliber team? I've read this argument numerous times done in a variety of ways and for the life of me I don't understand it.

For one why are we worried about a championship caliber team at this point. More to the point does anyone seriously think Noel is that much better then Okafor that he is capable of delivering us a championship.

It sort of reminds us of those who are worried about efficiency of having an offense which depends heavily on post play. Why? Are we worried about taking away touches from Henderson and Sauskas? Get me Lebron or Durant and then I'll start worrying. Otherwise I'd rather focus on the Sixers getting the most of the roster they currently have rather then worrying about some fantasy to be determined championship team full of elite SG and SF that you would rather give the possessions to.

It's a pretty simple question. Do you believe that a defensive front court of Simmons/Okafor is good enough to win a championship? The answer to that question should be obvious. The reason I ask it is because the entire point of the process is to become a contender. It's not to make the playoffs as the 4-6 seed and get bounced year in and year out. Don't have to tank 4 years for that.


Right now? No. But I also think Okafor has the defensive potential to be at least average moving forward so in 3-5 years it's not as clear.

There are also a host of other options to consider even if Embiid went down. It isn't a simple binary equation. For one we could go out and sign a defensive center keep Okafor at PF and move Simmons to SF.

We could have Okafor come off the bench and protect him against unfavorable matchups. Like OKC does. Some of you guys act like Okafor is some sort of impediment for us. He has three years left on his rookie deal. Even if he is coming off the bench for 20-25 minutes a game we can still extract tremendous surplus value from his deal.

Noel not so much. I mean even if Embiid went down he's not an ideal max player. He doesn't rebound. He a turnover machine on offense. He gives up 20-30 pounds on many of his matchups. Has no semblance of a post game which hurts us when teams go small.

Will he likely get a max deal? Probably. Some team is going to look at his potential and see him as the fix for their center position longterm but with the depth we have at the position it's not a risk we need to take. To be clear I'd likely not extend Okafor if he was where he is now year three of his career. However, he isn't at the same stage of his development process as Noel and their hugely differing contract situation only highlights this further.
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Re: Where is Nerlens? 

Post#312 » by LloydFree » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:52 pm

76ciology wrote:
eagereyez wrote:So let me throw out a hypothetical scenario: The Sixers trade Noel, and Embiid goes down. Do you still believe you have a championship caliber team with Okafor anchoring the defense? It's going to be impossible to hide him defensively playing next to Saric/Simmons, neither of whom are projected to be elite defenders. The team is doomed in that scenario.

With your question "Do you still believe you have a championship caliber team with Okafor anchoring the defense?"..

...Teams just put their best offensive scorers on the floor and let everyone play defense with their length and mobility with all the switching and rotations AS A TEAM.

Like I said, OKC was even able to hide Kanter on defense (not saying he's a good defender; To avoid any arguments.. OKC wasn't a bad defense when he's on court) and make him an effective player in the play-offs.

A team being good or bad on D is not because of a single player...

And with the team we have right now, and with a good defender version of Simmons and Embiid, they don't need Noel's D anymore than Jah's scoring.

OKC hides Kanter by putting his butt on the bench, where it belongs and letting him play against backups. Championship teams don't "just put their best scorers on the court", otherwise the Warriors wouldn't have had Bogut starting, the Mavericks' wouldn't have had Tyson Chandler starting, the Pistons wouldn't have had Ben Wallace starting and the Bulls wouldn't have had Rodman starting.
Fischella wrote:I think none of you guys that are pro-Embiid no how basketball works today.. is way easier to win it all with Omer Asik than Olajuwon.
Actually if you ask me which Center I want for my perfect championship caliber team, I will chose Asik hands down
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Re: Where is Nerlens? 

Post#313 » by eagereyez » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:53 pm

There is no chance in hell that Okafor can play PF. He is too slow to even play center. I can't take anyone seriously when they suggest that. Best case scenario, Okafor becomes average defensively at the center position. That's best case scenario.

Noel is a terrific defender who is exceedingly efficient albeit in limited ways. He fits with Simmons and Saric. He is the Embiid injury insurance. I don't see how Okafor fits with this team long-term. Maybe as a backup like Kanter.
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Re: Where is Nerlens? 

Post#314 » by 76ciology » Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:29 am

LloydFree wrote:
76ciology wrote:
eagereyez wrote:So let me throw out a hypothetical scenario: The Sixers trade Noel, and Embiid goes down. Do you still believe you have a championship caliber team with Okafor anchoring the defense? It's going to be impossible to hide him defensively playing next to Saric/Simmons, neither of whom are projected to be elite defenders. The team is doomed in that scenario.

With your question "Do you still believe you have a championship caliber team with Okafor anchoring the defense?"..

...Teams just put their best offensive scorers on the floor and let everyone play defense with their length and mobility with all the switching and rotations AS A TEAM.

Like I said, OKC was even able to hide Kanter on defense (not saying he's a good defender; To avoid any arguments.. OKC wasn't a bad defense when he's on court) and make him an effective player in the play-offs.

A team being good or bad on D is not because of a single player...

And with the team we have right now, and with a good defender version of Simmons and Embiid, they don't need Noel's D anymore than Jah's scoring.

OKC hides Kanter by putting his butt on the bench, where it belongs and letting him play against backups. Championship teams don't "just put their best scorers on the court", otherwise the Warriors wouldn't have had Bogut starting, the Mavericks' wouldn't have had Tyson Chandler starting, the Pistons wouldn't have had Ben Wallace starting and the Bulls wouldn't have had Rodman starting.


My bad there. Should have rephrased it and said that teams just find ways to play defense while putting best scorers on court. Easiest way is just to put a defensive big to anchor the D but the most effective with high net rtg IMO is a high octane offense with all guys (specially the wings) playing collective defense because that is tough to counter.
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Re: Where is Nerlens? 

Post#315 » by SixersR1 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:34 am

Not sure why we're talking about absolutes when it comes to a 20 year old basketball player. Give him credit where it's due at least. He had a reasonably decent rookie year and certainly left a mark with his iso scoring abilities. Yes the league is getting away from this, but that doesn't mean Okafor can't have a role on this team. Does anyone remember the last time we had a big capable of scoring 20ppg per season? You can't just dismiss this. If Coach Browns opinion of Jah is that he can play a Boozer role which he has stated, then I trust his opinion of the player and this game more than random fans. At least see what this kid can do....it's only the start of his second season....
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Re: Where is Nerlens? 

Post#316 » by 76ciology » Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:16 am

eagereyez wrote:There is no chance in hell that Okafor can play PF. He is too slow to even play center. I can't take anyone seriously when they suggest that. Best case scenario, Okafor becomes average defensively at the center position. That's best case scenario.

Noel is a terrific defender who is exceedingly efficient albeit in limited ways. He fits with Simmons and Saric. He is the Embiid injury insurance. I don't see how Okafor fits with this team long-term. Maybe as a backup like Kanter.


Problem with Okafor is not with his speed or mobility. You see his speed on offense, volume of shots challenged at the rim per game and if you look at his on court speed and travel distance per game.

The problem is not enough quickness in reaction time on D to compensate the defensive liabilities of Ish, Canaan, Sauce, Hollis and the nature of our team's defense in general that only an elite athlete like Noel/grant or an experienced (makes quicker defensive reads through experience) vet like Brand or maybe Sims can survive with.
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Re: Where is Nerlens? 

Post#317 » by phifans » Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:33 am

Some really do think Nerlens Noel - a guy who has barely improved any in two years , is the difference maker to whether this team can be a contender or a 25 wins team......
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Re: Where is Nerlens? 

Post#318 » by spikeslovechild » Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:01 am

eagereyez wrote:There is no chance in hell that Okafor can play PF. He is too slow to even play center. I can't take anyone seriously when they suggest that. Best case scenario, Okafor becomes average defensively at the center position. That's best case scenario.

Noel is a terrific defender who is exceedingly efficient albeit in limited ways. He fits with Simmons and Saric. He is the Embiid injury insurance. I don't see how Okafor fits with this team long-term. Maybe as a backup like Kanter.


Okafor is plenty fast for a center. Go to NBA.com and take a look at the SportsVu data.

http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/speed/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=DIST_FEET&dir=1

I don't see how Noel fits with this team and maybe most importantly Noel doesn't either which is why he had his tantrum on twitter. Also while Noel is insurance against Embiid that only goes so far. It doesn't warrant extending him early prior to seeing Embiid nor does it warrant keeping him if a team offers fair value for him. All it really does is not make it a total loss if he stays the year plays 15-20 minutes a night and walks in the offseason.

But even in the case of an Embiid injury like I said earlier you still have Okafor. You can go out and trade or sign a backup defensive center. It's not the end of the world. In any case as a fan I'm sort of done with this. For me it's clear what way the tide is going and I would be shocked if Noel isn't moved at some point this season.
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Re: Where is Nerlens? 

Post#319 » by eagereyez » Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:53 am

spikeslovechild wrote:
eagereyez wrote:There is no chance in hell that Okafor can play PF. He is too slow to even play center. I can't take anyone seriously when they suggest that. Best case scenario, Okafor becomes average defensively at the center position. That's best case scenario.

Noel is a terrific defender who is exceedingly efficient albeit in limited ways. He fits with Simmons and Saric. He is the Embiid injury insurance. I don't see how Okafor fits with this team long-term. Maybe as a backup like Kanter.


Okafor is plenty fast for a center. Go to NBA.com and take a look at the SportsVu data.

http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/speed/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=DIST_FEET&dir=1

I don't see how Noel fits with this team and maybe most importantly Noel doesn't either which is why he had his tantrum on twitter. Also while Noel is insurance against Embiid that only goes so far. It doesn't warrant extending him early prior to seeing Embiid nor does it warrant keeping him if a team offers fair value for him. All it really does is not make it a total loss if he stays the year plays 15-20 minutes a night and walks in the offseason.

But even in the case of an Embiid injury like I said earlier you still have Okafor. You can go out and trade or sign a backup defensive center. It's not the end of the world. In any case as a fan I'm sort of done with this. For me it's clear what way the tide is going and I would be shocked if Noel isn't moved at some point this season.

Speed is different from quickness. You need to be able to accelerate quickly while on defense, which Okafor is terrible at.

http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/speed/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=AVG_SPEED&dir=1

TJ McConnell is second in the entire league. Is he the second fastest player in the NBA? Hell the **** no. When we talk about being fast/slow, we mean quickness. All this list means is some players hustle up and down the court more, while the more explosive players tend to conserve their energy.
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Re: Where is Nerlens? 

Post#320 » by Johnstarks » Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:37 am

I think simmons and noel are the perfect frontcourt pairing. Noel makes up for some of simmons defensive limitations. And simmons and noel is a good rebounding duo. Simmons is a penetrator who can drop dimes that Noel can catch and dunk.

If you run the pnr with simmons teams will just go under the screen. So you use simmons off the ball and noel as the screen & dive with Rodriguez on the ball. Rodriguez is an able shooter and passer. If he cycles to simmons he's a guy who can cut, put the ball on the floor, pass, etc.

Simmons is an extremely dangerous player. In summer league he didn't even need screens to just bulldoze towards the basket. You put enough shooters around this guy and he's gonna kill teams.

Remember that in the postseason the goal is to go as small as possible without sacrificing too much rebounding.


This is all what he can do with noel. If embiid stays healthy it gets significantly scarier. But since we don't know if hes healthy yet you keep noel. Because okafor doesn't fit with any of this

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