Fixing the Mess Pt. 2 Sixers Offseason

[eyeatoma]

If the Sixers don't trade for Harden, the fans who are against it(for Simmons) would change their tune by January 1st once they realize the team still can't score, still has no elite level shot creation/shooting, and Doc Rivers doesn't magically fix all their issues. I feel a contingent of the Sixers fan base tends to overrate their own. All during summer 2019 you heard that Josh Richardson would become an all-star, Tobias Harris would thrive given the role of "go to scorer" and Simmons would finally start shooting. None of it happened.

Daryl Morey is a top level executive, but he's not a magician. He's not going to be able to find complimentary pieces capable of propelling them to a championship to put around Simmons and Embiid with the situation the Sixers are in. It's not happening. They don't have the cap room or tradeable assets to get any. The only way the Sixers were going to become a title contender is if a top 5 NBA player both became available and wanted to play in Philly. That has happened.

If the Sixers balk at this opportunity(assuming they have the pieces Houston wants) they will regret it for years. Simmons and Embiid don't fit well together, one of them was always going to have to move on for the Sixers to get to the next level, with the situation they've boxed themselves in. Harden is a once in a generation chance to get an all-time great. Morey must do this, and once he's scoring 30+ a night and making Embiid better by spacing the floor, no Sixers fan will regret it.

No brainer.

He returns...

And yes, completely agree with you. This deal is a no-brainer.

[Negrodamus]

You know better than to insinuate that reactionary in game takes are the correct measure of player valuation.

What did the Spurs get for a better, 4 years younger player than Harden in Kawhi Leonard w/1 less year of contract control?

A fake star in DeRozan, a couple middling guys, and a 1st round pick.

Imma need to see the 4+ time All Star* that we're sending to Houston for James Harden then. Despite being a fake star, he still has the all star resume that only two guys on our roster currently possess.

*Al Horford's AARP ass doesn't count.

Every single advanced stat has shown DeRozan to be a net negative player for virtually his entire career. He's the epitome of empty stats. His "4 all-stars" is nothing but a tribute to the atrociousness of the Eastern Conference.

Right, but the Spurs wanted to save face by bringing back a "star" in this trade. He was willing to fake an injury until he was traded to the Lakers, if my memory serves me. Lakers weren't offering a satisfactory package for him and he eventually agreed to the Raptors as a potential landing place and a happy medium for the Spurs.

I feel like that's what we'll see here: Nets and Sixers offer garbage, Harden loosens his restriction to any contending team, he gets traded for a better package, we continue to beg Ben to shoot threes for the sake of our offense.

[Arsenal]

Imma need to see the 4+ time All Star* that we're sending to Houston for James Harden then. Despite being a fake star, he still has the all star resume that only two guys on our roster currently possess.

*Al Horford's AARP ass doesn't count.

Every single advanced stat has shown DeRozan to be a net negative player for virtually his entire career. He's the epitome of empty stats. His "4 all-stars" is nothing but a tribute to the atrociousness of the Eastern Conference.

Right, but the Spurs wanted to save face by bringing back a "star" in this trade. He was willing to fake an injury until he was traded to the Lakers, if my memory serves me. Lakers weren't offering a satisfactory package for him and he eventually agreed to the Raptors as a potential landing place and a happy medium for the Spurs.

I feel like that's what we'll see here: Nets and Sixers offer garbage, Harden loosens his restriction to any contending team, he gets traded for a better package, we continue to beg Ben to shoot threes for the sake of our offense.

I disagree. Whenever we put Ben on the table it likely trumps any other offer. Which is why we'd be foolish to do it unless we KNOW they're going to pull the trigger elsewhere. Thankfully w/Morey in charge, we're likely to know.

[sixers hoops]

I think people are underrating the value to Houston of Shake Milton and Matisse Thybulle. Them both being under team control for dirt cheap for 3 years is extremely attractive. Whereas these Nets offers come with 1 cheap year for Allen then FA, 1 mediocre year for Dinwiddie ($11M) then FA, and 3 years of LeVert getting paid well ($17M/yr).

When you factor in contracts, then the combined value of Tobias + Shake + Matisse should equal or even exceed the value of Dinwiddie + LeVert + Allen.

For me, if I’m Houston, I just want the best player back and the least albatross contracts. From us, it is one of the worst contracts in the league and some backend starters. Thybulle and Milton are really good, controllable players, but ultimately they are low end starters.

From Brooklyn, you get Levert who should ultimately be the best player from either and you don’t have to take Tobias’ awful contract. You get a few late round firsts from either side which should be a wash.

I would love to get Harden without Simmons, but Houston would have to just go brain dead to take that offer.

I hope it happens, but it more seems like the unrealistic package of scraps trades that fans come here and offer for Ben or Joel.

You're ridiculously overrating Caris LeVert. Tobias is a better and more reliable player than he is.

I think it has less to do with Caris and more to do with Tobias.

I’m just not a big Tobias fan. He sucks. I want him gone and feel bad for whoever gets him.

If Tobias made 17 million a year, I would love him, but that contract has soured me on him. And for the money, he has come up tiny. Theoretically, he should have value as a four next to Embiid, but he can’t even shoot the three anymore.

Houston could add players around Caris. Tobias is just a massive contract for a guy who has no clue how limited he is. Taking contacts into account, Caris has way more value than Tobias.

I should give Tobias more credit, he was drafted as a rotational guy and constantly improved his game to the point where he was considered an all-star candidate with the Clippers. However, when you take that top 10 contract, and perform the way he did, he is just a massive negative in any deal.

[sixers hoops]

Every single advanced stat has shown DeRozan to be a net negative player for virtually his entire career. He's the epitome of empty stats. His "4 all-stars" is nothing but a tribute to the atrociousness of the Eastern Conference.

Right, but the Spurs wanted to save face by bringing back a "star" in this trade. He was willing to fake an injury until he was traded to the Lakers, if my memory serves me. Lakers weren't offering a satisfactory package for him and he eventually agreed to the Raptors as a potential landing place and a happy medium for the Spurs.

I feel like that's what we'll see here: Nets and Sixers offer garbage, Harden loosens his restriction to any contending team, he gets traded for a better package, we continue to beg Ben to shoot threes for the sake of our offense.

I disagree. Whenever we put Ben on the table it likely trumps any other offer. Which is why we'd be foolish to do it unless we KNOW they're going to pull the trigger elsewhere. Thankfully w/Morey in charge, we're likely to know.

If we get him for a non-Ben package, I will be thankful we have Morey in charge.

[Mik317]

again I am willing to wait and see what Ben looks like under a new system. No scientific or even reasonable reason for that belief. Just something I am willing to roll the dice on. I just don't think the Ben/Biid pairing is this unworkable thing and Ben is just a better Biid insurance than Harden who can and probably will walk in that scenario (again this is not based on anything factual).

I like Harden. I think he does get too much ****...HOWEVER, idk dude gets to the playoffs and flames out ...and its due to fatigue and his style of play being stonewalled. He has had an excuse for it most years (generally his running mate) tho.

idk man. Part of me really really wants the tanklords to be the reason we win and that is definitely clouding my view ala the past 3 big trades and signing.

meh oh well

[DT RAW]

Year 5 is going to be different for simmons?? Plz guys.. accept it already. Simmons is who he is.

Harden is 3x the player ben will ever be. U talk about harden flaming out but lets not act like simmons raises his game in the playoffs. Rather, hes a massive dead weight

[freshie2]

How Harden would mesh with Ben and Jojo is intriguing. Not interested in he and Embiid as the core...would rather build around Ben and Jojo if the trio is not an option.

[Arsenal]

Why no discussion about the fact that Ben Simmons is under contract for the next FIVE SEASONS, while James Harden is under contract for just two? Obviously Ben is getting paid $10M/yr less than Harden also at a lower max.

In trade, Ben Simmons should have MORE value than James Harden. That's why these crazy deals with us throwing in tons of picks, Thybulle, Milton, etc. are outrageous.

[Arsenal]

What did the Cavs get for 24 year old, 4 time all-star Kyrie Irving when they traded him w/2 years left on his deal? Not saying he's Harden, but Harden is 30 years old and getting paid far more.

[sixers_simmons]

Why no discussion about the fact that Ben Simmons is under contract for the next FIVE SEASONS, while James Harden is under contract for just two? Obviously Ben is getting paid $10M/yr less than Harden also at a lower max.

In trade, Ben Simmons should have MORE value than James Harden. That's why these crazy deals with us throwing in tons of picks, Thybulle, Milton, etc. are outrageous.

Anyone thinking wed have to give up Ben doesn’t understand the situation at all. Absolutely zero chance that happens.

[sixers_simmons]

What did the Cavs get for 24 year old, 4 time all-star Kyrie Irving when they traded him w/2 years left on his deal? Not saying he's Harden, but Harden is 30 years old and getting paid far more.

We see almost completely eye to eye on this, and I believe we’ll be proven right

[Stanford]

Why no discussion about the fact that Ben Simmons is under contract for the next FIVE SEASONS, while James Harden is under contract for just two? Obviously Ben is getting paid $10M/yr less than Harden also at a lower max.

In trade, Ben Simmons should have MORE value than James Harden. That's why these crazy deals with us throwing in tons of picks, Thybulle, Milton, etc. are outrageous.

I'm incredibly skeptical that we can get close to Harden with a less-than-Ben package, but I totally agree with you on this.

[davesilver]

What did the Cavs get for 24 year old, 4 time all-star Kyrie Irving when they traded him w/2 years left on his deal? Not saying he's Harden, but Harden is 30 years old and getting paid far more.

Coming off of a championship too. Excellent point.

[FireMorey]

Why would Ben Simmons have more value than James Harden? He's one of the 3 greatest scoring guards in NBA history and his game translates to aging well because he doesn't rely on athleticism, he relies on craftiness.

Ben Simmons is a good player, but he's vastly overrated. He not only can't shoot at all, he flat out refuses to, he's a liability at the ends of games, and he's barely improved since his rookie season, which puts a bit of a damper on the expectations of his ceiling. And he had a back issue last season, which is nothing to scoff at.

It's not about what the fans think, it's about what NBA GMs think. I'd bet around the NBA, GMs value Simmons' trade value closer to Levert than they do Harden. I would not be shocked at all if a select few NBA GMs think Levert has a higher upside than Simmons because of Levert's offensive potential and how much he's improved since entering the league, and would prefer Levert.

[Stanford]

Why would Ben Simmons have more value than James Harden?

Age, contentment, contract status.

[davesilver]

Why would Ben Simmons have more value than James Harden? He's one of the 3 greatest scoring guards in NBA history and his game translates to aging well because he doesn't rely on athleticism, he relies on craftiness.

Ben Simmons is a good player, but he's vastly overrated. He not only can't shoot at all, he flat out refuses to, he's a liability at the ends of games, and he's barely improved since his rookie season, which puts a bit of a damper on the expectations of his ceiling. And he had a back issue last season, which is nothing to scoff at.

It's not about what the fans think, it's about what NBA GMs think. I'd bet around the NBA, GMs value Simmons' trade value closer to Levert than they do Harden. I would not be shocked at all if a select few NBA GMs think Levert has a higher upside than Simmons because of Levert's offensive potential and how much he's improved since entering the league.

You are out of your mind if you think Simmons and Levert have comparable value. By the way, are you forgetting at Caris is two years older than Ben?

[Arsenal]

Why would Ben Simmons have more value than James Harden? He's one of the 3 greatest scoring guards in NBA history and his game translates to aging well because he doesn't rely on athleticism, he relies on craftiness.

Ben Simmons is a good player, but he's vastly overrated. He not only can't shoot at all, he flat out refuses to, he's a liability at the ends of games, and he's barely improved since his rookie season, which puts a bit of a damper on the expectations of his ceiling. And he had a back issue last season, which is nothing to scoff at.

It's not about what the fans think, it's about what NBA GMs think. I'd bet around the NBA, GMs value Simmons' trade value closer to Levert than they do Harden. I would not be shocked at all if a select few NBA GMs think Levert has a higher upside than Simmons because of Levert's offensive potential and how much he's improved since entering the league, and would prefer Levert.

No idea how you guys continually talk about LeVert as if he's some kind of star. Caris LeVert is mediocre at best. GTFO with him being some kind of piece that Houston or anyone else would want.

Delusional take.

[Arsenal]

Shake Milton > Caris LeVert

Matisse Thybulle > Caris LeVert

[davesilver]

Why would Ben Simmons have more value than James Harden? He's one of the 3 greatest scoring guards in NBA history and his game translates to aging well because he doesn't rely on athleticism, he relies on craftiness.

Ben Simmons is a good player, but he's vastly overrated. He not only can't shoot at all, he flat out refuses to, he's a liability at the ends of games, and he's barely improved since his rookie season, which puts a bit of a damper on the expectations of his ceiling. And he had a back issue last season, which is nothing to scoff at.

It's not about what the fans think, it's about what NBA GMs think. I'd bet around the NBA, GMs value Simmons' trade value closer to Levert than they do Harden. I would not be shocked at all if a select few NBA GMs think Levert has a higher upside than Simmons because of Levert's offensive potential and how much he's improved since entering the league, and would prefer Levert.

No idea how you guys continually talk about LeVert as if he's some kind of star. Caris LeVert is mediocre at best. GTFO with him being some kind of piece that Houston or anyone else would want.

Delusional take.

It's seriously insane... and this is coming from a Michigan fan. he has a low-level All-Star (like CJ) ceiling, and I am skeptical he'd ever even hit that.