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Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll

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Simmons or Ingram

Simmons
137
56%
Ingram
106
44%
 
Total votes: 243

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Re: Simmons or Ingram for Philly? Now with Poll | Dx says Ingram 

Post#341 » by NJ SixerFan » Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:05 pm

eagereyez wrote:
ExplosionsInDaSky wrote:Agreed ^ you can't put the defensive issues all on Okafor. He does his job as an individual defensive player. He needs to improve on rotations, PnR defense, switching, and help defense....All teachable, all achievable, and his struggles should be understandable considering he was just a rookie and Noel...who many consider elite at defense still struggles at. It takes time to learn the NBA game. Posters on here expecting him to be a master finished product fifty games into his career are asking way too much way too fast. It's also...totally not his fault that our starting backcourt is two guys barely six feet tall that are terrible defensive players. Our bench with Stauskus and Hollis (both willing defenders but not great) doesn't get any better. Covington was a good defender until he found job security, and the others Marshall, Pressey, Weems, etc are all terrible. Not a single solid defensive bulldog in the bunch besides TJ. Nope...can't blame that on Jah...but people who don't know team basketball and only look at spreadsheet stats continue to do so.

The counter argument to blaming the perimeter defense is that in the 600 minutes with Noel at the 5 and Grant at the 4 the Sixers defensive rating is 102.6. That would be third best in the NBA, behind only San Antonio and Atlanta. Or do the perimeter players only play defense when Okafor is on the bench?

My guess is the large majority of those 600 minutes came with grant coming off the bench against likely backups as well. I've seen the noel grant lineup starting recently and there was like a 5 game stretch or so where they gave up like 120 ppg.
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Re: Simmons or Ingram for Philly? Now with Poll | Dx says Ingram 

Post#342 » by Ericb5 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:35 pm

NJ SixerFan wrote:
eagereyez wrote:
ExplosionsInDaSky wrote:Agreed ^ you can't put the defensive issues all on Okafor. He does his job as an individual defensive player. He needs to improve on rotations, PnR defense, switching, and help defense....All teachable, all achievable, and his struggles should be understandable considering he was just a rookie and Noel...who many consider elite at defense still struggles at. It takes time to learn the NBA game. Posters on here expecting him to be a master finished product fifty games into his career are asking way too much way too fast. It's also...totally not his fault that our starting backcourt is two guys barely six feet tall that are terrible defensive players. Our bench with Stauskus and Hollis (both willing defenders but not great) doesn't get any better. Covington was a good defender until he found job security, and the others Marshall, Pressey, Weems, etc are all terrible. Not a single solid defensive bulldog in the bunch besides TJ. Nope...can't blame that on Jah...but people who don't know team basketball and only look at spreadsheet stats continue to do so.

The counter argument to blaming the perimeter defense is that in the 600 minutes with Noel at the 5 and Grant at the 4 the Sixers defensive rating is 102.6. That would be third best in the NBA, behind only San Antonio and Atlanta. Or do the perimeter players only play defense when Okafor is on the bench?

My guess is the large majority of those 600 minutes came with grant coming off the bench against likely backups as well. I've seen the noel grant lineup starting recently and there was like a 5 game stretch or so where they gave up like 120 ppg.


Serious question. Do analytics take into account the quality of the opponent at any given minute?

The difference between facing starters vs facing backups can be huge.




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Re: Simmons or Ingram for Philly? Now with Poll | Dx says Ingram 

Post#343 » by eagereyez » Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:02 pm

CoreyGallagher wrote:
eagereyez wrote:The counter argument to blaming the perimeter defense is that in the 600 minutes with Noel at the 5 and Grant at the 4 the Sixers defensive rating is 102.6. That would be third best in the NBA, behind only San Antonio and Atlanta. Or do the perimeter players only play defense when Okafor is on the bench?

No it wouldn't, a 102.6 DRTG would rank 12th in the NBA.

In 696 possessions with Okafor and without Noel or Grant, teams shoot 31.3% from 3 (134 fga), 61.3% at the rim (191 fga), and 79.3% from the charity stripe (208 fta). In 1311 possessions with Noel and Grant teams shoot 31.3% from 3 (316 attempts), 60.2% at the rim (361 fga), 74.8% from charity stripe (341 fta).

The noticeable difference seems to be defending without fouling, also, teams shooting considerably better from the free throw line when they get there. With consideration, both Noel and Grant commit more fouls and specifically shooting fouls than Okafor does in the aforementioned line ups.

If you compare their DRTG's from New Years onward, Okafor by himself is actually only marginally worse than Grant and Noel. 107.5 to 106.2. Weigh recency how you would like.

A team DRTG of 102.6 would rank 12th in the NBA?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_ratings.html
Are you looking at a more accurate site than me or something?
Okafor's defense has improved, but that wasn't my argument. My argument is that it's not the perimeter defense that's holding him back, as it hasn't held back Grant/Noel at the 4 and the 5. Also, I believe that DRTG is a more valid measure of defensive impact than raw possession data.
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Re: Simmons or Ingram for Philly? Now with Poll | Dx says Ingram 

Post#344 » by CoreyGallagher » Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:54 pm

eagereyez wrote:A team DRTG of 102.6 would rank 12th in the NBA?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_ratings.html
Are you looking at a more accurate site than me or something?
Okafor's defense has improved, but that wasn't my argument. My argument is that it's not the perimeter defense that's holding him back, as it hasn't held back Grant/Noel at the 4 and the 5. Also, I believe that DRTG is a more valid measure of defensive impact than raw possession data.

Basketball-reference uses their own formula, which is useful, I use it player specifically. What you're referring to is the per 100 possessions usage. Noel and Grant, without Okafor, allows about 102.6 (I got 102.7) points per 100 possessions; however, it would be different if crunched through their formula.
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Re: Simmons or Ingram for Philly? Now with Poll | Dx says Ingram 

Post#345 » by Bigballer74 » Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:53 am

76thBearCub wrote:
Bigballer74 wrote:
76thBearCub wrote:
I get that he is 20. But he has no clue how to play winning basketball. He is a super talented post scorer. That's all he is right now.

Leaving him about 90% left to learn at 20 years old. He's very raw as an overall player.

He's won at every level. Not a winning player? You can't be serious.


Just real quick cuz i already commented.

No, just because you "won" earlier does not mean you will be a winner.

I can dig it.
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Re: Simmons or Ingram for Philly? Now with Poll | Dx says Ingram 

Post#346 » by ExplosionsInDaSky » Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:54 am

eagereyez wrote:
ExplosionsInDaSky wrote:Agreed ^ you can't put the defensive issues all on Okafor. He does his job as an individual defensive player. He needs to improve on rotations, PnR defense, switching, and help defense....All teachable, all achievable, and his struggles should be understandable considering he was just a rookie and Noel...who many consider elite at defense still struggles at. It takes time to learn the NBA game. Posters on here expecting him to be a master finished product fifty games into his career are asking way too much way too fast. It's also...totally not his fault that our starting backcourt is two guys barely six feet tall that are terrible defensive players. Our bench with Stauskus and Hollis (both willing defenders but not great) doesn't get any better. Covington was a good defender until he found job security, and the others Marshall, Pressey, Weems, etc are all terrible. Not a single solid defensive bulldog in the bunch besides TJ. Nope...can't blame that on Jah...but people who don't know team basketball and only look at spreadsheet stats continue to do so.

The counter argument to blaming the perimeter defense is that in the 600 minutes with Noel at the 5 and Grant at the 4 the Sixers defensive rating is 102.6. That would be third best in the NBA, behind only San Antonio and Atlanta. Or do the perimeter players only play defense when Okafor is on the bench?


Huh??? Dude....look at the scores of some of the games since he's been out. No way we have the third best defense in the league lmao!!!! Brooklyn dropped 130 on us, Boston 120, Miami, Charloote, Washington, Houston, OKC have ALL killed us scoring like 112 point on up. It doesn't take an analytical spreadsheet to see that we are terrible at defense regardless of who plays center. Backcourt players have had career games against us. Boban BogphuckinDonovic had like 45 against us! Lets get real here, our perimeter defense is the WORST in the entire league! I don't care what spreadsheet defensive DRTGHIJKLMNOP#%\*^¡°°= crap you try to champion off as fact. All one has to do is look at the final score! How can you even argue this???? If you don't like Okafor that's totally fine by me, but lets not act like our perimeter defense isn't trash, and please....let's not deny the FACT that Noel at times has struggled regardless of who is playing next to him.
Now....Grant/Noel are a nice pairing defensively, i'd be an idiot to suggest they aren't....BUT...neither one of them can put the ball in the hoop to save their lives, neither one can create off the dribble, or drive, or score at will, or command double and triple teams constantly! That's why you see Will Barton guarding Noel with ease. That's why Anthony Morrow would look like a defensive savant guarding Grant.
Okafor needs to improve defensively and rebounding wise, yes...but offensively he potentially changes the entire bloodline of a game. Teams will be forced to gameplan for him, they will have to adjust to him, and once we get him some adequate help he's going to be a terror Hell storm offensively.
Gimme a break with this analytics crap, he's a twenty year old kid. Lets give him time to grow into his profession for Christ sakes.
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Re: Simmons or Ingram for Philly? Now with Poll | Dx says Ingram 

Post#347 » by Agnostifarian » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:18 pm

This is a link breaking down the MIL experiment of running Giannis at lead guard. I am posting it because I think Simmons and Ingram can be used in the same way. Simmons' advantages are ball handling, passing, rebounding and getting to the line. Ingram is a better shooter and more flexible (better) defender who will get more steals and blocks, IMO.

Anyway, You can watch this video and imagine either of this year's prospects evolving into NBA mismatches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUznksmYx1g
“This may be one of the best jobs in basketball right now,” Colangelo said at a press conference introducing him as the new GM of the 76ers after Sam Hinkie resigned.
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Re: Simmons or Ingram for Philly? Now with Poll | Dx says Ingram 

Post#348 » by lotto29 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:45 pm

Aren't you guys a little off topic here?
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Re: Simmons or Ingram for Philly? Now with Poll | Dx says Ingram 

Post#349 » by Agnostifarian » Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:31 pm

lotto29 wrote:Aren't you guys a little off topic here?


Let's get it back on track. What is your take?
“This may be one of the best jobs in basketball right now,” Colangelo said at a press conference introducing him as the new GM of the 76ers after Sam Hinkie resigned.
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Re: RE: Re: Simmons or Ingram for Philly? Now with Poll | Dx says Ingram 

Post#350 » by lotto29 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:37 pm

Agnostifarian wrote:
lotto29 wrote:Aren't you guys a little off topic here?


Let's get it back on track. What is your take?

On what? The previous discussion or the thread?
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Re: Simmons or Ingram for Philly? Now with Poll | Dx says Ingram 

Post#351 » by Unbreakable99 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:17 pm

Agnostifarian wrote:This is a link breaking down the MIL experiment of running Giannis at lead guard. I am posting it because I think Simmons and Ingram can be used in the same way. Simmons' advantages are ball handling, passing, rebounding and getting to the line. Ingram is a better shooter and more flexible (better) defender who will get more steals and blocks, IMO.

Anyway, You can watch this video and imagine either of this year's prospects evolving into NBA mismatches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUznksmYx1g


I think Simmons should be able to do what Greek Freak can do offensively at PG. it's worth a look if we get him.
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Re: Simmons or Ingram for Philly? 

Post#352 » by wow444 » Fri Apr 1, 2016 5:16 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
lotto29 wrote:Simmons realistic ceiling right is scottie Pippen. His floor is Lamar Odom. Either he breaks his ceiling or not it's up to him.


I dont get posts like this. His ceiling is Scottie Pippen? Have you watched Simmons play? What about you makes you say his ceiling is one of the best premier perimeter defenders of all time? Hes not a good defender yet and he plays down in the post. Then his floor is Odom? No his floor is a lot lower, thats why they call it a floor. Then they call it a ceiling by saying if he maximizes his potential this is how good he can be.


What he did at LSU matters little to what he will do in the NBA. Scottie Pippen played at an NAIA school and was a point guard as 6' 1" PG. As a 6' 7", though I couldn't find it documented anywhere I am fairly confident he was a PF/C. From the little bit of footage they had on is draft day it looked like he was the tallest player on the court and was fed in the post a few times.
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Re: Simmons or Ingram for Philly? 

Post#353 » by wow444 » Fri Apr 1, 2016 5:18 pm

cksdayoff wrote:
youngcrev wrote:
freshie2 wrote:A 6'10" iguodala is actually would be a generational prospect


At the very least a 6'10" Iguodala would be the best player we've drafted since '96... (assuming taller = better)


add in Iggy's elite athleticism and elite defense at 6'10. He would've been amazing.


It will be interesting to see if Simmons has a greater standing reach than Iguodala.
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Re: Simmons or Ingram for Philly? Now with Poll | Dx says Ingram 

Post#354 » by MatthewGeigerII » Fri Apr 1, 2016 5:33 pm

I'm sure this has been brought up before in someone's dream but what would it take to come away with BOTH?

IF the LAL pick conveys, it is most likely to be at #4 or #5.

Would it be possible for the sixers to trade up to #2 from that #4/5?
Maybe coming out of the draft with PG simmons and SF Ingram?

It would probably have to be a series of Moves and shuffling but...

Trade #1:
Sixers Give: Nerlens Noel + OKC 1st
Sixers Recieve: Brooklyn 2016 1st from Celtics

Trade #2 (following):
Sixers Give: Brooklyn 2016 1st, LAL Conveyed 2016 first (#3 and #5, let's say)
Sixers Recieve: #2 pick

Which stage needs more value? Or could you guys see something like this actually happening?

far-fetched I know :/ but every time i see the title of this thread i'm thinking "why can't we just have both!"
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Re: Simmons or Ingram for Philly? Now with Poll | Dx says Ingram 

Post#355 » by ET Da Gawd » Fri Apr 1, 2016 6:11 pm

ExplosionsInDaSky wrote:
eagereyez wrote:
ExplosionsInDaSky wrote:Agreed ^ you can't put the defensive issues all on Okafor. He does his job as an individual defensive player. He needs to improve on rotations, PnR defense, switching, and help defense....All teachable, all achievable, and his struggles should be understandable considering he was just a rookie and Noel...who many consider elite at defense still struggles at. It takes time to learn the NBA game. Posters on here expecting him to be a master finished product fifty games into his career are asking way too much way too fast. It's also...totally not his fault that our starting backcourt is two guys barely six feet tall that are terrible defensive players. Our bench with Stauskus and Hollis (both willing defenders but not great) doesn't get any better. Covington was a good defender until he found job security, and the others Marshall, Pressey, Weems, etc are all terrible. Not a single solid defensive bulldog in the bunch besides TJ. Nope...can't blame that on Jah...but people who don't know team basketball and only look at spreadsheet stats continue to do so.

The counter argument to blaming the perimeter defense is that in the 600 minutes with Noel at the 5 and Grant at the 4 the Sixers defensive rating is 102.6. That would be third best in the NBA, behind only San Antonio and Atlanta. Or do the perimeter players only play defense when Okafor is on the bench?


Huh??? Dude....look at the scores of some of the games since he's been out. No way we have the third best defense in the league lmao!!!! Brooklyn dropped 130 on us, Boston 120, Miami, Charloote, Washington, Houston, OKC have ALL killed us scoring like 112 point on up. It doesn't take an analytical spreadsheet to see that we are terrible at defense regardless of who plays center. Backcourt players have had career games against us. Boban BogphuckinDonovic had like 45 against us! Lets get real here, our perimeter defense is the WORST in the entire league! I don't care what spreadsheet defensive DRTGHIJKLMNOP#%\*^¡°°= crap you try to champion off as fact. All one has to do is look at the final score! How can you even argue this???? If you don't like Okafor that's totally fine by me, but lets not act like our perimeter defense isn't trash, and please....let's not deny the FACT that Noel at times has struggled regardless of who is playing next to him.
Now....Grant/Noel are a nice pairing defensively, i'd be an idiot to suggest they aren't....BUT...neither one of them can put the ball in the hoop to save their lives, neither one can create off the dribble, or drive, or score at will, or command double and triple teams constantly! That's why you see Will Barton guarding Noel with ease. That's why Anthony Morrow would look like a defensive savant guarding Grant.
Okafor needs to improve defensively and rebounding wise, yes...but offensively he potentially changes the entire bloodline of a game. Teams will be forced to gameplan for him, they will have to adjust to him, and once we get him some adequate help he's going to be a terror Hell storm offensively.
Gimme a break with this analytics crap, he's a twenty year old kid. Lets give him time to grow into his profession for Christ sakes.

I can't say it better enough. Okafors defense is not bad. A Ben Simmons/Okafor/Embiid front court will be unstoppable one on one. That's how we go with the anti gsw route. No 4s or smallball 4s can guard jah & Simmons will body 3s all day driving from the perimeter.
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Re: Simmons or Ingram for Philly? Now with Poll | Dx says Ingram 

Post#356 » by ET Da Gawd » Fri Apr 1, 2016 6:18 pm

akhan786 wrote:Lets get Ingram on the same beefing program as Embiid...Image

Simmons is already on that diet, Ingram will be a slim perimeter chucker for his career.
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Re: Simmons or Ingram for Philly? 

Post#357 » by freshie2 » Fri Apr 1, 2016 11:30 pm

wow444 wrote:
cksdayoff wrote:
youngcrev wrote:
At the very least a 6'10" Iguodala would be the best player we've drafted since '96... (assuming taller = better)


add in Iggy's elite athleticism and elite defense at 6'10. He would've been amazing.


It will be interesting to see if Simmons has a greater standing reach than Iguodala.


What is currently on draft express has Simmons a little ahead of Iguodala in wingspan (6'11 to 7'1/4") and standing reach (8'9.5" to 9'1/2"). He's not going to win the tale of the tape if that is going to be some folk's deciding factor.
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Re: Simmons or Ingram for Philly? Now with Poll | Dx says Ingram 

Post#358 » by SparksFly87 » Sat Apr 2, 2016 12:31 am

I like the idea of simmons at point guard with okafor and embiid inside.surrounded around long active defenders who can knock down 3's. 6'7 and bigger.
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Re: Simmons or Ingram for Philly? Now with Poll | Dx says Ingram 

Post#359 » by Sixerscan » Sat Apr 2, 2016 1:35 am

MatthewGeigerII wrote:I'm sure this has been brought up before in someone's dream but what would it take to come away with BOTH?

IF the LAL pick conveys, it is most likely to be at #4 or #5.

Would it be possible for the sixers to trade up to #2 from that #4/5?
Maybe coming out of the draft with PG simmons and SF Ingram?

It would probably have to be a series of Moves and shuffling but...

Trade #1:
Sixers Give: Nerlens Noel + OKC 1st
Sixers Recieve: Brooklyn 2016 1st from Celtics

Trade #2 (following):
Sixers Give: Brooklyn 2016 1st, LAL Conveyed 2016 first (#3 and #5, let's say)
Sixers Recieve: #2 pick

Which stage needs more value? Or could you guys see something like this actually happening?

far-fetched I know :/ but every time i see the title of this thread i'm thinking "why can't we just have both!"


If we had the 2nd overall pick, would you trade it for 3 and 5?

People just don't trade these top picks outside of a lebron situation.
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Re: Simmons or Ingram for Philly? 

Post#360 » by HotelVitale » Sun Apr 3, 2016 3:39 pm

freshie2 wrote:
wow444 wrote:
cksdayoff wrote:add in Iggy's elite athleticism and elite defense at 6'10. He would've been amazing.
It will be interesting to see if Simmons has a greater standing reach than Iguodala.
What is currently on draft express has Simmons a little ahead of Iguodala in wingspan (6'11 to 7'1/4") and standing reach (8'9.5" to 9'1/2"). He's not going to win the tale of the tape if that is going to be some folk's deciding factor.

This is an important pt for comps, though--Simmons is much closer to Iggy in terms of wingspan and reach than someone like Giannis. Simmons is a hair over 7' in wingpsan while Giannis' is between 7'3 and 7'4 (reports vary, and there was no official combine measurement). Pippen also had a wingspan in the 7'4 range.

As usual, you can't let comps do the work for you. Simmons can do some things like Giannis has been doing this year, but that doesn't mean he IS Giannis or will basically have the same impact. Simmons also doesn't have any exceptional athleticism (though he's very fast in transition with the ball), so he'll need to do things differently from Giannis to succeed as pt forward against huge NBA guys.

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