The Ben Simmons Megathread - Part III

[Tomjas]

I am a big Simmons fan but if he’s passive tomorrow then....

I don’t care whether he takes a jumper but at least drive and give Raptors different looks

Can live with 2/15 but floating around the perimeter is not on at this point

Even his sister is on the case

[51X3RF4N]

Would be bonkers if coach called a play to start the game where Ben ends up with the ball at the top of the key, and the entire point of running it is to give Ben his chance to take a shot from 3, in a controlled setting where you know they will sag off, and he can take his time and line it up and shoot it.

Cuz if he makes it, the entire game changes. If he misses it, we are back at the same place. So why not do it?

[the_process]

Nobody has said it would be an easy transition. What some are saying is that he needs to switch hands because it is clear his shot is more natural with his right. What is the downside? he is not shooting right now anyways lol.
Just try some things and tweaks to improve him as a shooter, instead of, you know, admitting defeat and just resigning to the fact he will never be able to shoot. Improvement is a thing, I know you don't believe much in that but with a great work ethic some nice things can happen. Ben maybe doesn't have the work ethic unfortunately, let's see if he gets it this offseason.

How long do you think this will take? Because we're going to need to decide if he's a max contract in 2 years and I have some beach side property in Arizona to give you if he's shooting better than he currently is with his right hand by then.

And what's the downside? What if he is never comfortable shooting with his right hand and is worse shooter? Then he spent X amount of time 2 years into his NBA career working on a failed project when he was shooting 60% from FT (4% improvement from last year) with his left hand. What if he commits the same amount of time to making the adjustments necessary to the hand he's comfortable with? Wouldn't that be infinitely less risky and probably yield better results?

But sure, I don't believe in improvement. Maybe Markelle should shoot with his left hand because clearly the right hand isn't working and he needs the nuclear option, amirite?

Markelle does not finish at the rim with his left, struggle to finish with his right, throw with his left, shoot hooks with his left, shoot floaters with his left, revert to shooting left when under pressure, and have to twist his body unnaturally to shoot right - so it's not the same.

This. It's not even close to the same. Different universes.

[the_process]

Markelle does not finish at the rim with his left, struggle to finish with his right, throw with his left, shoot hooks with his left, shoot floaters with his left, revert to shooting left when under pressure, and have to twist his body unnaturally to shoot right - so it's not the same.

Glad that's what you hooked your argument on to. Now address the rest of the post.

This does address the rest of the post.

He's never going to be a good shooter lefty as is no matter what work he puts in. His whole form is garbage. So he's not wasting time trying to shoot righty, because any work he puts in lefty is wasted from the jump.

This becomes a lot easier if they can just trade him.

[Bum Adebayo]

Glad that's what you hooked your argument on to. Now address the rest of the post.

This does address the rest of the post.

He's never going to be a good shooter lefty as is no matter what work he puts in. His whole form is garbage. So he's not wasting time trying to shoot righty, because any work he puts in lefty is wasted from the jump.

This becomes a lot easier if they can just trade him.

So then he will stay being a bad shooter forever? and we should just accept it and allow him to refuse to shoot? is this what I'm hearing in here?

[AirP.]

Would be bonkers if coach called a play to start the game where Ben ends up with the ball at the top of the key, and the entire point of running it is to give Ben his chance to take a shot from 3, in a controlled setting where you know they will sag off, and he can take his time and line it up and shoot it.

Cuz if he makes it, the entire game changes. If he misses it, we are back at the same place. So why not do it?

Nah, if I'm Toronto I'd be very comfortable in letting Ben Simmons have those shots and let him try to beat us with that jumper.

Ben Simmons becomes a whole different animal with just a decent jumper, quite possibly an MVP caliber type player, I just don't know if he'll ever put in the amount of work it'll take to do that. Look around and you can see tons of players in the NBA who have gone from no 3pt shot to being 3pt shooters, Gasol and B.Lopez were 2 monsters down low who are now good 3pt shooters because they saw where the NBA was going and put in the work to adapt.

[sixerswillrule]

Would be bonkers if coach called a play to start the game where Ben ends up with the ball at the top of the key, and the entire point of running it is to give Ben his chance to take a shot from 3, in a controlled setting where you know they will sag off, and he can take his time and line it up and shoot it.

Cuz if he makes it, the entire game changes. If he misses it, we are back at the same place. So why not do it?

Nah, if I'm Toronto I'd be very comfortable in letting Ben Simmons have those shots and let him try to beat us with that jumper.

Ben Simmons becomes a whole different animal with just a decent jumper, quite possibly an MVP caliber type player, I just don't know if he'll ever put in the amount of work it'll take to do that. Look around and you can see tons of players in the NBA who have gone from no 3pt shot to being 3pt shooters, Gasol and B.Lopez were 2 monsters down low who are now good 3pt shooters because they saw where the NBA was going and put in the work to adapt.

They were good mid-range shooters. Ben is one of the worst mid-range shooters in the league.

[mhunt]

Ben should have switched shooting hands right out of college, but he didn't, and he probably won't now. It is clear as day that he has no confidence in his ability to shoot and starting from scratch will be too much for him to bear. He is too prideful to do what it takes to become the best possible version of himself.

Just gotta live with the taller Rondo. That or trade him for a player that fits, best case scenario a former Finals MVP and top 5 player. But that'll probably never happen.

Agreed. I don't think Ben will ever develop a shot at this point. It's a mental thing.

Heck, I WISH he were a Rondo type shooter at this point. As least Rondo attempts some threes...around 1.3 per game for his career. Ben has attempted 17 total in 2 seasons...and IDK how many of them were heaves to beat the buzzer.

Turning down wide open jumpers is bad offense.

[AirP.]

Would be bonkers if coach called a play to start the game where Ben ends up with the ball at the top of the key, and the entire point of running it is to give Ben his chance to take a shot from 3, in a controlled setting where you know they will sag off, and he can take his time and line it up and shoot it.

Cuz if he makes it, the entire game changes. If he misses it, we are back at the same place. So why not do it?

Nah, if I'm Toronto I'd be very comfortable in letting Ben Simmons have those shots and let him try to beat us with that jumper.

Ben Simmons becomes a whole different animal with just a decent jumper, quite possibly an MVP caliber type player, I just don't know if he'll ever put in the amount of work it'll take to do that. Look around and you can see tons of players in the NBA who have gone from no 3pt shot to being 3pt shooters, Gasol and B.Lopez were 2 monsters down low who are now good 3pt shooters because they saw where the NBA was going and put in the work to adapt.

They were good mid-range shooters. Ben is one of the worst mid-range shooters in the league.

Ugh... ok, how about Jason Kid. The point is... if you're willing to work on your shot it can be decent unless you have some type of mental block or physical limitation and if that's the case for Ben you guys better move him.

It would be interesting if he just concentrated on shooting for the next 1 or 2 summers(and of course during the season), there is technology to help players like the Noah where it will watch your shot and give you verbal feedback on each shot while also compiling your data for further analysis.

If Simmons is shooting with his wrong hand and doesn't want to change, then the best thing would convince him that he needs to learn to shoot with either hand, especially near the basket and hopefully he gets comfortable enough with his other hand to switch down the road.

[Negrodamus]

Where did I say or indicate it would be easy? You must really be struggling to put up an argument against him fixing his shot if you have to resort to making things up.

No, not struggling at all. I just find the "well he should just switch hands" crowd to be exhaustingly obtuse and completely out of touch with his situation.

So what is this then?

Read on Twitter

And I can show you ten more of these shots that he's made as well. well over 95% of his buckets come with his right hand and that include sky hooks, push shots, lay-ups and dunks. That shot above is pretty much a jumper if he keeps his left hand on the ball just a few seconds longer. His spring, form and the way he releases the ball there are MUCH more conducive to developing a midrange jumper than the mess he currently has with his left-hand jumpers of which his elbow sticks out weirdly and he releases the ball with his left palm instead of pushing the ball forward with the tips of his hand.

This is not a situation where he's a left-handed player and we're calling for him to shoot with his right-hand because his lefty jumpers aren't falling. This is a situation where we see a kid who scores most of his buckets with his dominant right hand but yet somehow contrives to only shoot jumpers with his left hand. Have you seen another case like this In the NBA? Because I sure haven't. The fact is his lefty jumper looks unnatural and you can see that he has to think about his spring and form before he takes one, because it just isn't natural. I would bet large sums of money that a right-handed jumper would give him way more success because those push shots like the one above are virtually jumpers anyway and he scores them regularly.

I believe Elton and the FO need to sit down with Ben and lay it out for him clearly. "We're gonna get you a personal shooting coach and we'd like to see you try to develop a right-handed jumper as all the stats suggest that is the hand you should be shooting with", it's just that simple yall.

I'm not denying that he's right hand dominant, but that isn't a jump shot. I know, because I shoot/dribble/etc exactly the same way (if you can recall this conversation we've had before): Everything with right hand, shoot jumpers with left. He feels comfortable shooting layups and floaters with his right hand, so he'll use that around the rim. Jump shots are different: your base, the muscle memory, putting the off hand on the ball, the touch... it's all different. The idea that he will turn that into a midrange or even 3 point jumper is incomprehensible.

I'm also not saying he shouldn't HAVE changed his shot. But that train has left the station a while ago... before he joined the league. Probably before he joined LSU.

[PhillyPhilly]

No, not struggling at all. I just find the "well he should just switch hands" crowd to be exhaustingly obtuse and completely out of touch with his situation.

So what is this then?

Read on Twitter

And I can show you ten more of these shots that he's made as well. well over 95% of his buckets come with his right hand and that include sky hooks, push shots, lay-ups and dunks. That shot above is pretty much a jumper if he keeps his left hand on the ball just a few seconds longer. His spring, form and the way he releases the ball there are MUCH more conducive to developing a midrange jumper than the mess he currently has with his left-hand jumpers of which his elbow sticks out weirdly and he releases the ball with his left palm instead of pushing the ball forward with the tips of his hand.

This is not a situation where he's a left-handed player and we're calling for him to shoot with his right-hand because his lefty jumpers aren't falling. This is a situation where we see a kid who scores most of his buckets with his dominant right hand but yet somehow contrives to only shoot jumpers with his left hand. Have you seen another case like this In the NBA? Because I sure haven't. The fact is his lefty jumper looks unnatural and you can see that he has to think about his spring and form before he takes one, because it just isn't natural. I would bet large sums of money that a right-handed jumper would give him way more success because those push shots like the one above are virtually jumpers anyway and he scores them regularly.

I believe Elton and the FO need to sit down with Ben and lay it out for him clearly. "We're gonna get you a personal shooting coach and we'd like to see you try to develop a right-handed jumper as all the stats suggest that is the hand you should be shooting with", it's just that simple yall.

I'm not denying that he's right hand dominant, but that isn't a jump shot. I know, because I shoot/dribble/etc exactly the same way (if you can recall this conversation we've had before): Everything with right hand, shoot jumpers with left. He feels comfortable shooting layups and floaters with his right hand, so he'll use that around the rim. Jump shots are different: your base, the muscle memory, putting the off hand on the ball, the touch... it's all different. The idea that he will turn that into a midrange or even 3 point jumper is incomprehensible.

I'm also not saying he shouldn't HAVE changed his shot. But that train has left the station a while ago... before he joined the league. Probably before he joined LSU.

Disagree. That shot I posted has a better form, spring and release than his left hand jumpers. The elbow is correct and he actually pushes the ball forward instead of twisting the ball with the palm of his hand like he does with the leftys. Furthermore I don't know how any train has "left" when he barely shoots his left hand jumpers and shoots way more of those right handed push shots? All he needs to do is keep his left palm on the ball a few seconds longer on release and that IS a jumper, period. The lefties will never work because his form, spring and release are just not natural or proper. If he does what I just suggested with those push shots and put In the reps then he'll have a chance of developing a midrange jumper imo.

[Negrodamus]

So what is this then?

Read on Twitter

And I can show you ten more of these shots that he's made as well. well over 95% of his buckets come with his right hand and that include sky hooks, push shots, lay-ups and dunks. That shot above is pretty much a jumper if he keeps his left hand on the ball just a few seconds longer. His spring, form and the way he releases the ball there are MUCH more conducive to developing a midrange jumper than the mess he currently has with his left-hand jumpers of which his elbow sticks out weirdly and he releases the ball with his left palm instead of pushing the ball forward with the tips of his hand.

This is not a situation where he's a left-handed player and we're calling for him to shoot with his right-hand because his lefty jumpers aren't falling. This is a situation where we see a kid who scores most of his buckets with his dominant right hand but yet somehow contrives to only shoot jumpers with his left hand. Have you seen another case like this In the NBA? Because I sure haven't. The fact is his lefty jumper looks unnatural and you can see that he has to think about his spring and form before he takes one, because it just isn't natural. I would bet large sums of money that a right-handed jumper would give him way more success because those push shots like the one above are virtually jumpers anyway and he scores them regularly.

I believe Elton and the FO need to sit down with Ben and lay it out for him clearly. "We're gonna get you a personal shooting coach and we'd like to see you try to develop a right-handed jumper as all the stats suggest that is the hand you should be shooting with", it's just that simple yall.

I'm not denying that he's right hand dominant, but that isn't a jump shot. I know, because I shoot/dribble/etc exactly the same way (if you can recall this conversation we've had before): Everything with right hand, shoot jumpers with left. He feels comfortable shooting layups and floaters with his right hand, so he'll use that around the rim. Jump shots are different: your base, the muscle memory, putting the off hand on the ball, the touch... it's all different. The idea that he will turn that into a midrange or even 3 point jumper is incomprehensible.

I'm also not saying he shouldn't HAVE changed his shot. But that train has left the station a while ago... before he joined the league. Probably before he joined LSU.

Disagree. That shot I posted has a better form, spring and release than his left hand jumpers. The elbow is correct and he actually pushes the ball forward instead of twisting the ball with the palm of his hand like he does with the leftys. Furthermore I don't know how any train has "left" when he barely shoots his left hand jumpers and shoots way more of those right handed push shots? All he needs to do is keep his left palm on the ball a few seconds longer on release and that IS a jumper, period. The lefties will never work because his form, spring and release are just not natural or proper. If he does what I just suggested with those push shots and put In the reps then he'll have a chance of developing a midrange jumper imo.

Alright, well I'm certainly not going to be the one that convinces you at this point.

But there is precedent: Tristan Thompson switched hands in 2013. His FT% regressed in the three years following. The past two years has he only seen some improvement and he's still below a 70% FT shooter. So, my question is, what's the point of ripping Ben out of what feels natural to him for marginal, if any, results?

[Bum Adebayo]

I'm not denying that he's right hand dominant, but that isn't a jump shot. I know, because I shoot/dribble/etc exactly the same way (if you can recall this conversation we've had before): Everything with right hand, shoot jumpers with left. He feels comfortable shooting layups and floaters with his right hand, so he'll use that around the rim. Jump shots are different: your base, the muscle memory, putting the off hand on the ball, the touch... it's all different. The idea that he will turn that into a midrange or even 3 point jumper is incomprehensible.

I'm also not saying he shouldn't HAVE changed his shot. But that train has left the station a while ago... before he joined the league. Probably before he joined LSU.

Disagree. That shot I posted has a better form, spring and release than his left hand jumpers. The elbow is correct and he actually pushes the ball forward instead of twisting the ball with the palm of his hand like he does with the leftys. Furthermore I don't know how any train has "left" when he barely shoots his left hand jumpers and shoots way more of those right handed push shots? All he needs to do is keep his left palm on the ball a few seconds longer on release and that IS a jumper, period. The lefties will never work because his form, spring and release are just not natural or proper. If he does what I just suggested with those push shots and put In the reps then he'll have a chance of developing a midrange jumper imo.

Alright, well I'm certainly not going to be the one that convinces you at this point.

But there is precedent: Tristan Thompson switched hands in 2013. His FT% regressed in the three years following. The past two years has he only seen some improvement and he's still below a 70% FT shooter. So, my question is, what's the point of ripping Ben out of what feels natural to him for marginal, if any, results?

It doesn't feel natural to him, he doesn't want to change because it would involve to put in more work, something he is alergic of.
He can't shoot now, so the upside is big in trying something different. Acepting he can't shoot and moving on, which seems it is what you're suggesting, is NOT an option.

[djsunyc]

Would be bonkers if coach called a play to start the game where Ben ends up with the ball at the top of the key, and the entire point of running it is to give Ben his chance to take a shot from 3, in a controlled setting where you know they will sag off, and he can take his time and line it up and shoot it.

Cuz if he makes it, the entire game changes. If he misses it, we are back at the same place. So why not do it?

the game wouldn't change. if that's the game plan, raptors will gladly sag off b/c simmons would go 1 for however many he took that night.

[the_process]

This does address the rest of the post.

He's never going to be a good shooter lefty as is no matter what work he puts in. His whole form is garbage. So he's not wasting time trying to shoot righty, because any work he puts in lefty is wasted from the jump.

This becomes a lot easier if they can just trade him.

So then he will stay being a bad shooter forever? and we should just accept it and allow him to refuse to shoot? is this what I'm hearing in here?

No, what I'm saying is he needs to work on his right. The left will never work, the right might. If it does, MVP. If it doesn't, he's the same player as now. Nothing lost, and possibly a ton to gain.

[Negrodamus]

Disagree. That shot I posted has a better form, spring and release than his left hand jumpers. The elbow is correct and he actually pushes the ball forward instead of twisting the ball with the palm of his hand like he does with the leftys. Furthermore I don't know how any train has "left" when he barely shoots his left hand jumpers and shoots way more of those right handed push shots? All he needs to do is keep his left palm on the ball a few seconds longer on release and that IS a jumper, period. The lefties will never work because his form, spring and release are just not natural or proper. If he does what I just suggested with those push shots and put In the reps then he'll have a chance of developing a midrange jumper imo.

Alright, well I'm certainly not going to be the one that convinces you at this point.

But there is precedent: Tristan Thompson switched hands in 2013. His FT% regressed in the three years following. The past two years has he only seen some improvement and he's still below a 70% FT shooter. So, my question is, what's the point of ripping Ben out of what feels natural to him for marginal, if any, results?

It doesn't feel natural to him, he doesn't want to change because it would involve to put in more work, something he is alergic of.
He can't shoot now, so the upside is big in trying something different. Acepting he can't shoot and moving on, which seems it is what you're suggesting, is NOT an option.

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/no-1-pick-ben-simmons-geaux-lsu-article-1.2530677

"I think I was supposed to be right-handed," Ben says. "It's all natural now."

[Bum Adebayo]

He's never going to be a good shooter lefty as is no matter what work he puts in. His whole form is garbage. So he's not wasting time trying to shoot righty, because any work he puts in lefty is wasted from the jump.

This becomes a lot easier if they can just trade him.

So then he will stay being a bad shooter forever? and we should just accept it and allow him to refuse to shoot? is this what I'm hearing in here?

No, what I'm saying is he needs to work on his right. The left will never work, the right might. If it does, MVP. If it doesn't, he's the same player as now. Nothing lost, and possibly a ton to gain.

Oh, I agree, but apparently it is too much to ask and we need to be careful to not piss the poor Simmons, it may require too much work ethic and he may implode or something.

[Bum Adebayo]

Alright, well I'm certainly not going to be the one that convinces you at this point.

But there is precedent: Tristan Thompson switched hands in 2013. His FT% regressed in the three years following. The past two years has he only seen some improvement and he's still below a 70% FT shooter. So, my question is, what's the point of ripping Ben out of what feels natural to him for marginal, if any, results?

It doesn't feel natural to him, he doesn't want to change because it would involve to put in more work, something he is alergic of.
He can't shoot now, so the upside is big in trying something different. Acepting he can't shoot and moving on, which seems it is what you're suggesting, is NOT an option.

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/no-1-pick-ben-simmons-geaux-lsu-article-1.2530677

"I think I was supposed to be right-handed," Ben says. "It's all natural now."

Yeah, so natural that he doesn't even try to shoot with it
He is saying this because he doesn't want to change hands, wants to avoid putting in the work. He has been coddled all his life and as a result has ingrained low work ethic.

[Negrodamus]

It doesn't feel natural to him, he doesn't want to change because it would involve to put in more work, something he is alergic of.
He can't shoot now, so the upside is big in trying something different. Acepting he can't shoot and moving on, which seems it is what you're suggesting, is NOT an option.

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/no-1-pick-ben-simmons-geaux-lsu-article-1.2530677

"I think I was supposed to be right-handed," Ben says. "It's all natural now."

Yeah, so natural that he doesn't even try to shoot with it
He is saying this because he doesn't want to change hands, wants to avoid putting in the work. He has been coddled all his life and as a result has ingrained low work ethic.

Oh great, so you have inside tracking of the situation? what Simmons said or thinks? amazing man.

[PhillyPhilly]

I'm not denying that he's right hand dominant, but that isn't a jump shot. I know, because I shoot/dribble/etc exactly the same way (if you can recall this conversation we've had before): Everything with right hand, shoot jumpers with left. He feels comfortable shooting layups and floaters with his right hand, so he'll use that around the rim. Jump shots are different: your base, the muscle memory, putting the off hand on the ball, the touch... it's all different. The idea that he will turn that into a midrange or even 3 point jumper is incomprehensible.

I'm also not saying he shouldn't HAVE changed his shot. But that train has left the station a while ago... before he joined the league. Probably before he joined LSU.

Disagree. That shot I posted has a better form, spring and release than his left hand jumpers. The elbow is correct and he actually pushes the ball forward instead of twisting the ball with the palm of his hand like he does with the leftys. Furthermore I don't know how any train has "left" when he barely shoots his left hand jumpers and shoots way more of those right handed push shots? All he needs to do is keep his left palm on the ball a few seconds longer on release and that IS a jumper, period. The lefties will never work because his form, spring and release are just not natural or proper. If he does what I just suggested with those push shots and put In the reps then he'll have a chance of developing a midrange jumper imo.

Alright, well I'm certainly not going to be the one that convinces you at this point.

But there is precedent: Tristan Thompson switched hands in 2013. His FT% regressed in the three years following. The past two years has he only seen some improvement and he's still below a 70% FT shooter. So, my question is, what's the point of ripping Ben out of what feels natural to him for marginal, if any, results?

The thing is what is Ben really "switching" when he doesn't even shoot the left hand jumpers anyway? Cause like I said already, he shoots those right handed push shots In every game so clearly he's comfortable with them. Turning that into a jumper should be pretty easy imo because the form and release are already there.