Fixing the Mess Pt. 2 Sixers Offseason

[Mik317]

Why would Ben Simmons have more value than James Harden? He's one of the 3 greatest scoring guards in NBA history and his game translates to aging well because he doesn't rely on athleticism, he relies on craftiness.

Ben Simmons is a good player, but he's vastly overrated. He not only can't shoot at all, he flat out refuses to, he's a liability at the ends of games, and he's barely improved since his rookie season, which puts a bit of a damper on the expectations of his ceiling. And he had a back issue last season, which is nothing to scoff at.

It's not about what the fans think, it's about what NBA GMs think. I'd bet around the NBA, GMs value Simmons' trade value closer to Levert than they do Harden. I would not be shocked at all if a select few NBA GMs think Levert has a higher upside than Simmons because of Levert's offensive potential and how much he's improved since entering the league, and would prefer Levert.

Ben is a 2 time all star; 1st team all defense. 3rd team all nba. Is only 24 and under contract for 5 years.

I know you hate Ben but come on fam

[sixers hoops]

Why no discussion about the fact that Ben Simmons is under contract for the next FIVE SEASONS, while James Harden is under contract for just two? Obviously Ben is getting paid $10M/yr less than Harden also at a lower max.

In trade, Ben Simmons should have MORE value than James Harden. That's why these crazy deals with us throwing in tons of picks, Thybulle, Milton, etc. are outrageous.

And Ben isn’t disgruntled and is just entering his prime. I would love to at least dump Tobias and get Cov back. Definitely not adding firsts, Shake, or Thybulle to Ben.

[youngcrev]

I think Morey is gonna get this done, and that Ben and Jo will still be on the team.

[FireMorey]

I don't hate Ben at all. I quite like him actually. Just think people overrate him and his value around the league. He's a good player, he's not a great player and never will become great until he develops a jumper, which he's so no signs of ever doing or even a willingness to shoot.

[Arsenal]

Why would Ben Simmons have more value than James Harden? He's one of the 3 greatest scoring guards in NBA history and his game translates to aging well because he doesn't rely on athleticism, he relies on craftiness.

Ben Simmons is a good player, but he's vastly overrated. He not only can't shoot at all, he flat out refuses to, he's a liability at the ends of games, and he's barely improved since his rookie season, which puts a bit of a damper on the expectations of his ceiling. And he had a back issue last season, which is nothing to scoff at.

It's not about what the fans think, it's about what NBA GMs think. I'd bet around the NBA, GMs value Simmons' trade value closer to Levert than they do Harden. I would not be shocked at all if a select few NBA GMs think Levert has a higher upside than Simmons because of Levert's offensive potential and how much he's improved since entering the league, and would prefer Levert.

No idea how you guys continually talk about LeVert as if he's some kind of star. Caris LeVert is mediocre at best. GTFO with him being some kind of piece that Houston or anyone else would want.

Delusional take.

It's seriously insane... and this is coming from a Michigan fan. he has a low-level All-Star (like CJ) ceiling, and I am skeptical he'd ever even hit that.

LeVert missed an ishload of games (AGAIN) this past season. Raised his usage to almost 30%. Meanwhile his efficiency tanked to an abysmal .514 TS after an even worse .509 the year before.

When you force feed a guy tons of shots but his efficiency TANKS in the process, that means he's a mediocre role player and most definitely NOT A STAR.

[the_process]

Why no discussion about the fact that Ben Simmons is under contract for the next FIVE SEASONS, while James Harden is under contract for just two? Obviously Ben is getting paid $10M/yr less than Harden also at a lower max.

In trade, Ben Simmons should have MORE value than James Harden. That's why these crazy deals with us throwing in tons of picks, Thybulle, Milton, etc. are outrageous.

Right, and that's why Covington should be a part of the deal as well.

[Stanford]

Levert stinks even more than Bradley Beal

[Arsenal]

Why no discussion about the fact that Ben Simmons is under contract for the next FIVE SEASONS, while James Harden is under contract for just two? Obviously Ben is getting paid $10M/yr less than Harden also at a lower max.

In trade, Ben Simmons should have MORE value than James Harden. That's why these crazy deals with us throwing in tons of picks, Thybulle, Milton, etc. are outrageous.

Right, and that's why Covington should be a part of the deal as well.

There's no way I give up Ben in the deal unless Cov is also coming back. Hell no.

If we have to send Ben, then its Ben + Al for Harden + Cov.

[Sixerscan]

What did the Cavs get for 24 year old, 4 time all-star Kyrie Irving when they traded him w/2 years left on his deal? Not saying he's Harden, but Harden is 30 years old and getting paid far more.

Well they got an unprotected draft pick from the team that had the worst record in the league the year before and a guy coming off a year where he averaged 29 PPG and made 2nd team all NBA. After the trade both of those assets really declined in value but at the time they were probably more attractive than anything the Nets or Sixers (without Simmons) could offer. And they also got Crowder who at the time I recall people saying was better than Covington.

Trades for these guys generally aren't about how any random assets you can throw in, they're really about the headlining pieces, and then the GMs haggle over the small stuff. Like the Cavs didn't agree to that trade because the Celtics threw in Ante Zizic, who at the time was probably more like some of these minor pieces people are acting like are gonna make this Harden trade work.

[ProcessDoctor]

I agree LeVert is one of the more overrated young players in this league. That being said, I think the package of picks we'd have to give up without Ben in the trade would be astronomical. Think Paul George-esque. If we were lucky, we could swing...


Harris/Richardson/Milton/#21/2021 swap/2022 FRP (unprotected)/2023 swap

for

Harden/Gordon



Harden(34)/Burks(14)
Gordon(24)/Korkmaz(18)/Burks(6)
Thybulle(28)/MLE(20)
Simmons(34)/Horford(10)/MLE(4)
Embiid(30)/Horford(18)


Harden/Burks/#49
Gordon/Korkmaz/Smith
Thybulle/MLE/#36
Simmons/Scott/#34
Embiid/Horford/Pelle

[Arsenal]

What did the Cavs get for 24 year old, 4 time all-star Kyrie Irving when they traded him w/2 years left on his deal? Not saying he's Harden, but Harden is 30 years old and getting paid far more.

Well they got an unprotected draft pick from the team that had the worst record in the league the year before and a guy coming off a year where he averaged 29 PPG and made 2nd team all NBA. After the trade both of those assets really declined in value but at the time they were probably more attractive than anything the Nets or Sixers (without Simmons) could offer. And they also got Crowder who at the time I recall people saying was better than Covington.

Trades for these guys generally aren't about how any random assets you can throw in, they're really about the headlining pieces, and then the GMs haggle over the small stuff. Like the Cavs didn't agree to that trade because the Celtics threw in Ante Zizic, who at the time was probably more like some of these minor pieces people are acting like are gonna make this Harden trade work.

You neglected to mention the guy coming off the big year was an undersized defensive liability who relied on speed and quickness, but had a torn hip muscle. He was also asking to "back up the Brinks truck". All of which was known before the deal.

So the headlining piece was the unprotected BKN pick. Plus a flier on Isaiah for a one season rental which wasn't worth much. Plus Zizic, also not worth much. Plus a role player w/a nice contract in Crowder.

[Arsenal]

I agree LeVert is one of the more overrated young players in this league. That being said, I think the package of picks we'd have to give up without Ben in the trade would be astronomical. Think Paul George-esque. If we were lucky, we could swing...


Harris/Richardson/Milton/#21/2021 swap/2022 FRP (unprotected)/2023 swap

for

Harden/Gordon



Harden(34)/Burks(14)
Gordon(24)/Korkmaz(18)/Burks(6)
Thybulle(28)/MLE(20)
Simmons(34)/Horford(10)/MLE(4)
Embiid(30)/Horford(18)


Harden/Burks/#49
Gordon/Korkmaz/Smith
Thybulle/MLE/#36
Simmons/Scott/#34
Embiid/Horford/Pelle

No, not even close to Paul George esque. That trade is totally irrelevant because the Clippers got Kawhi Leonard also as part of that deal.

EDIT: but your overall deal is likely similar to what would happen.

[Stanford]

Yeah, Isaiah Thomas finished 5th in MVP voting that year. People were not calling that unfair value for Kyrie at the time. I think Bill Simmons even thought it was too much. It was also a deal that balanced their need to capitalize on LeBron's final season and their probable future without LeBron.

It wasn't a deal for two average guards and an average center.

[Iscull]

I agree LeVert is one of the more overrated young players in this league. That being said, I think the package of picks we'd have to give up without Ben in the trade would be astronomical. Think Paul George-esque. If we were lucky, we could swing...


Harris/Richardson/Milton/#21/2021 swap/2022 FRP (unprotected)/2023 swap

for

Harden/Gordon



Harden(34)/Burks(14)
Gordon(24)/Korkmaz(18)/Burks(6)
Thybulle(28)/MLE(20)
Simmons(34)/Horford(10)/MLE(4)
Embiid(30)/Horford(18)


Harden/Burks/#49
Gordon/Korkmaz/Smith
Thybulle/MLE/#36
Simmons/Scott/#34
Embiid/Horford/Pelle

No, not even close to Paul George esque. That trade is totally irrelevant because the Clippers got Kawhi Leonard also as part of that deal.

EDIT: but your overall deal is likely similar to what would happen.

Exactly - OKC had all the leverage because they knew what LAC stood to gain by getting PG13.

For us, we have the leverage because Harden only wants to play for a handful of teams. We just need to make a more compelling trade offer than BK.

[Arsenal]

Yeah, Isaiah Thomas finished 5th in MVP voting that year. People were not calling that unfair value for Kyrie at the time. I think Bill Simmons even thought it was too much. It was also a deal that balanced their need to capitalize on LeBron's final season and their probable future without LeBron.

It wasn't a deal for two average guards and an average center.

Outsiders takes aren't very relevant as nobody knew the extent of Thomas' hip injury. But the Cavs doctors did know.

[ProcessDoctor]

I agree LeVert is one of the more overrated young players in this league. That being said, I think the package of picks we'd have to give up without Ben in the trade would be astronomical. Think Paul George-esque. If we were lucky, we could swing...


Harris/Richardson/Milton/#21/2021 swap/2022 FRP (unprotected)/2023 swap

for

Harden/Gordon



Harden(34)/Burks(14)
Gordon(24)/Korkmaz(18)/Burks(6)
Thybulle(28)/MLE(20)
Simmons(34)/Horford(10)/MLE(4)
Embiid(30)/Horford(18)


Harden/Burks/#49
Gordon/Korkmaz/Smith
Thybulle/MLE/#36
Simmons/Scott/#34
Embiid/Horford/Pelle

No, not even close to Paul George esque. That trade is totally irrelevant because the Clippers got Kawhi Leonard also as part of that deal.

EDIT: but your overall deal is likely similar to what would happen.

I see the point you're trying to make, but I think it's a stretch. Harris and Horford are both seen as negative assets. Adding Thybulle, Milton, Richardson, picks, etc. making it a slightly positive package. It doesn't equate to MVP James Harden, regardless of him asking out.

[davesilver]

Why no discussion about the fact that Ben Simmons is under contract for the next FIVE SEASONS, while James Harden is under contract for just two? Obviously Ben is getting paid $10M/yr less than Harden also at a lower max.

In trade, Ben Simmons should have MORE value than James Harden. That's why these crazy deals with us throwing in tons of picks, Thybulle, Milton, etc. are outrageous.

Right, and that's why Covington should be a part of the deal as well.

There's no way I give up Ben in the deal unless Cov is also coming back. Hell no.

If we have to send Ben, then its Ben + Al for Harden + Cov.

1a, in my opinion, is not giving up Ben, but part of me wants to see this while retaining all our draft assets:
Harden - #21
Jrich - Shake
Cov - Matisse
Tobias - ?
Embiid - ?

Matisse learning under Cov would be a beautiful thing to see. Develop Zhaire and our draft picks.

[Arsenal]

I agree LeVert is one of the more overrated young players in this league. That being said, I think the package of picks we'd have to give up without Ben in the trade would be astronomical. Think Paul George-esque. If we were lucky, we could swing...


Harris/Richardson/Milton/#21/2021 swap/2022 FRP (unprotected)/2023 swap

for

Harden/Gordon



Harden(34)/Burks(14)
Gordon(24)/Korkmaz(18)/Burks(6)
Thybulle(28)/MLE(20)
Simmons(34)/Horford(10)/MLE(4)
Embiid(30)/Horford(18)


Harden/Burks/#49
Gordon/Korkmaz/Smith
Thybulle/MLE/#36
Simmons/Scott/#34
Embiid/Horford/Pelle

No, not even close to Paul George esque. That trade is totally irrelevant because the Clippers got Kawhi Leonard also as part of that deal.

EDIT: but your overall deal is likely similar to what would happen.

I see the point you're trying to make, but I think it's a stretch. Harris and Horford are both seen as negative assets. Adding Thybulle, Milton, Richardson, picks, etc. making it a slightly positive package. It doesn't equate to MVP James Harden, regardless of him asking out.

The point I've been making is that when a star is disgruntled and wants out, the price virtually always ends up being a lot less than people expect.

No reason that won't be the case again with Harden.

[Sixerscan]

What did the Cavs get for 24 year old, 4 time all-star Kyrie Irving when they traded him w/2 years left on his deal? Not saying he's Harden, but Harden is 30 years old and getting paid far more.

Well they got an unprotected draft pick from the team that had the worst record in the league the year before and a guy coming off a year where he averaged 29 PPG and made 2nd team all NBA. After the trade both of those assets really declined in value but at the time they were probably more attractive than anything the Nets or Sixers (without Simmons) could offer. And they also got Crowder who at the time I recall people saying was better than Covington.

Trades for these guys generally aren't about how any random assets you can throw in, they're really about the headlining pieces, and then the GMs haggle over the small stuff. Like the Cavs didn't agree to that trade because the Celtics threw in Ante Zizic, who at the time was probably more like some of these minor pieces people are acting like are gonna make this Harden trade work.

You neglected to mention the guy coming off the big year was an undersized defensive liability who relied on speed and quickness, but had a torn hip muscle. He was also asking to "back up the Brinks truck". All of which was known before the deal.

So the headlining piece was the unprotected BKN pick. Plus a flier on Isaiah for a one season rental which wasn't worth much. Plus Zizic, also not worth much. Plus a role player w/a nice contract in Crowder.

Well we both know the story with Thomas sure but regardless I think it's pretty clear that package is a lot better than the ones the Sixers or Nets would be offering. Also that was years ago at this point and there have been super star trades since then that have fetched much more value. I don't think it's that instructive for this scenario.

Plus it's Cleveland and they are just an otherwise terribly run franchise who were lucky enough to have the best player of his generation born an hour away.

[Arsenal]

Right, and that's why Covington should be a part of the deal as well.

There's no way I give up Ben in the deal unless Cov is also coming back. Hell no.

If we have to send Ben, then its Ben + Al for Harden + Cov.

1a, in my opinion, is not giving up Ben, but part of me wants to see this while retaining all our draft assets:
Harden - #21
Jrich - Shake
Cov - Matisse
Tobias - ?
Embiid - ?

Matisse learning under Cov would be a beautiful thing to see. Develop Zhaire and our draft picks.

Yeah, that's why I proposed the Ben trade also. I'm basically indifferent between the Ben trade vs. the non-Ben trade.