Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll

Negrodamus · Post #381 » by **Negrodamus** » Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:56 pm

Unless Colangelo wants to put all his chips in the Simmons or Ingram basket, he would have to be crazy to trade arguably our best player and our top pick for a complete unknown. In this draft, there are no guarantees.

51X3RF4N · Post #382 » by **51X3RF4N** » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:58 pm

PhilasFinest wrote:
phiphan wrote:Guys, I really don't know what I'll do if we don't get a top 2 pick... That will be so crushing. Apparently we have only a 49.5% chance at top 2.

Buy a case of beer, crack them all open, Watch every single youtube video on Dunn and Murray and try to get as excited as possible.

FIFY

Agnostifarian · Post #383 » by **Agnostifarian** » Tue May 3, 2016 4:24 pm

I would like to reiterate that Ingram is 14 months younger than Simmons. Ingram will certainly add 10 to 20 lbs of muscle to his frame over 14 months. I would be surprised if he doesn't grow taller and longer too. He is so far ahead of Giannis or Wiggins at the same age in terms of ball handling and shooting--Ingram will play four positions on offense and will be able to switch on defense. If Embiid is the perfect test tube center for the modern NBA, Ingram is his wing counterpart.

Eyeamok · Post #384 » by **Eyeamok** » Wed May 4, 2016 12:03 am

Agnostifarian wrote:I would like to reiterate that Ingram is 14 months younger than Simmons. Ingram will certainly add 10 to 20 lbs of muscle to his frame over 14 months. I would be surprised if he doesn't grow taller and longer too. He is so far ahead of Giannis or Wiggins at the same age in terms of ball handling and shooting--Ingram will play four positions on offense and will be able to switch on defense. If Embiid is the perfect test tube center for the modern NBA, Ingram is his wing counterpart.

I want to believe....I so want to believe, especially if we are in a position to draft him.

ProcessDoctor · Post #385 » by **ProcessDoctor** » Wed May 4, 2016 12:24 am

This is one of the hardest decisions for me honestly, especially when we start factoring "fit" into the equation, which I know should never be done when selecting this high in the draft. In past drafts it was much easier if we got the top pick (Wiggins, KAT). Maybe by draft day there will be a clear-cut decision in my mind. With all that said, Ingram is a seamless fit here and wouldn't require any pieces to be moved immediately. Additionally, I don't trust BC to build a team around Simmons because it would require him to make more moves. I just hope we can look back at this draft in 5 years and say we got the right guy.

dkj5061 · Post #386 » by **dkj5061** » Wed May 4, 2016 2:56 am

sixers238 wrote:This is one of the hardest decisions for me honestly, especially when we start factoring "fit" into the equation, which I know should never be done when selecting this high in the draft. In past drafts it was much easier if we got the top pick (Wiggins, KAT). Maybe by draft day there will be a clear-cut decision in my mind. With all that said, Ingram is a seamless fit here and wouldn't require any pieces to be moved immediately. Additionally, I don't trust BC to build a team around Simmons because it would require him to make more moves. I just hope we can look back at this draft in 5 years and say we got the right guy.

One of the reasons I kind of want Simmons is precisely because we'll have to move players for him. Because he's worth doing that for! Also, I can just picture us drafting Ingram and then being content with our roster. "Oh boy, we have Ingram at the 3, Okafor at the 4, and Embiid at the 5!" That sounds very nice, and I might just be being pessimistic, but I think us slotting Okafor at the 4 and being content with that immediately puts a ceiling on our potential. He's not a 4 and probably will never be one (which isn't a problem, he could be a terrific 5, just not for us with a healthy embiid), but I can see us being content to make him a 4. I want us to draft Simmons so that we absolutely have to balance our roster out instead of settling with what we have.

Another thing that pushes me towards Simmons is both player's realistic potential. I want this pick to give us a shot at a top 5 player, and I'm not sure Ingram does that. It's so god damn hard to be a top 5 player, especially at small forward. He's not Lebron. Despite being one of his biggest comparisons, he won't be Durant either. Kevin Durant is a historically great player, one of a kind in NBA history, and another Durant isn't just gonna waltz into the league a few years after he does. That brings us to the fringe top 5 players. Despite how amazing he is, Kawhi Leonard isn't considered a top 5 player by some people. Paul George is also an elite talent, but again not a top 5 player. For Ingram to ever be a top 5 player, he would have to better than those guys. I just don't see any way Ingram becomes the defender Kawhi is, and he would have to be significantly better offensive player than Paul George to reach top 5 status. Both scenarios seem highly unlikely.

This isn't to say that Simmons will waltz in a be a top 5 player. It's just so much easier to picture a world in which he is. It's not as hard to picture Simmons average something along the lines of 22 points per game, 11 rebounds per game, and 8 assists per game at some point in his career as it is to picture Ingram being better than someone like Kawhi, at least in my opinion. Simmons is a unique talent, maybe even a transcendent one, and unique talents are the players who become top 5 players. You need to have something that separates you. Steph has his shooting, Lebron has his athleticism and rare BBall IQ, Durant is 7 ft tall with possibly the second best jumpshot in the league, Russell Westbrook is a freak of nature, Anthony Davis has his alien body. It's rare to find someone with a gift that can separate them, so when you see someone like Simmons, with that rare feel for the game and smoothness for a 6'10' guy, you have to take a shot on him. Brandon Ingram can be a great two way player. Ben Simmons can transcend the league. That's one guys opinion though. If we end up with either I'll be ecstatic. If we could get both (news that Lakers are gonna trade their pick no matter what could help this) I would be the happiest man alive.

ProcessDoctor · Post #387 » by **ProcessDoctor** » Wed May 4, 2016 3:11 am

dkj5061 wrote:
sixers238 wrote:This is one of the hardest decisions for me honestly, especially when we start factoring "fit" into the equation, which I know should never be done when selecting this high in the draft. In past drafts it was much easier if we got the top pick (Wiggins, KAT). Maybe by draft day there will be a clear-cut decision in my mind. With all that said, Ingram is a seamless fit here and wouldn't require any pieces to be moved immediately. Additionally, I don't trust BC to build a team around Simmons because it would require him to make more moves. I just hope we can look back at this draft in 5 years and say we got the right guy.

One of the reasons I kind of want Simmons is precisely because we'll have to move players for him. Because he's worth doing that for! Also, I can just picture us drafting Ingram and then being content with our roster. "Oh boy, we have Ingram at the 3, Okafor at the 4, and Embiid at the 5!" That sounds very nice, and I might just be being pessimistic, but I think us slotting Okafor at the 4 and being content with that immediately puts a ceiling on our potential. He's not a 4 and probably will never be one (which isn't a problem, he could be a terrific 5, just not for us with a healthy embiid), but I can see us being content to make him a 4. I want us to draft Simmons so that we absolutely have to balance our roster out instead of settling with what we have.

Another thing that pushes me towards Simmons is both player's realistic potential. I want this pick to give us a shot at a top 5 player, and I'm not sure Ingram does that. It's so god damn hard to be a top 5 player, especially at small forward. He's not Lebron. Despite being one of his biggest comparisons, he won't be Durant either. Kevin Durant is a historically great player, one of a kind in NBA history, and another Durant isn't just gonna waltz into the league a few years after he does. That brings us to the fringe top 5 players. Despite how amazing he is, Kawhi Leonard isn't considered a top 5 player by some people. Paul George is also an elite talent, but again not a top 5 player. For Ingram to ever be a top 5 player, he would have to better than those guys. I just don't see any way Ingram becomes the defender Kawhi is, and he would have to be significantly better offensive player than Paul George to reach top 5 status. Both scenarios seem highly unlikely.

This isn't to say that Simmons will waltz in a be a top 5 player. It's just so much easier to picture a world in which he is. It's not as hard to picture Simmons average something along the lines of 22 points per game, 11 rebounds per game, and 8 assists per game at some point in his career as it is to picture Ingram being better than someone like Kawhi, at least in my opinion. Simmons is a unique talent, maybe even a transcendent one, and unique talents are the players who become top 5 players. You need to have something that separates you. Steph has his shooting, Lebron has his athleticism and rare BBall IQ, Durant is 7 ft tall with possibly the second best jumpshot in the league, Russell Westbrook is a freak of nature, Anthony Davis has his alien body. It's rare to find someone with a gift that can separate them, so when you see someone like Simmons, with that rare feel for the game and smoothness for a 6'10' guy, you have to take a shot on him. Brandon Ingram can be a great two way player. Ben Simmons can transcend the league. That's one guys opinion though. If we end up with either I'll be ecstatic. If we could get both (news that Lakers are gonna trade their pick no matter what could help this) I would be the happiest man alive.

I think a lot of what you said resonates with what I really think the difference is between the two. It's just so easy to get caught up in the skillset of Ingram, and think about how he would lead us down the "easy route" of making this team begin to look like an actual well-rounded roster. However, I do see your point about getting content with Okafor at the 4. Maybe a part of me is just trying to hype myself up for Ingram in case we don't land #1? lol.

I really like what you said about Simmons' feel for the game. Simmons is one of those players that is greater than the sum of his parts. People talk about how he needs to work on shooting, defense (?), and has average athleticism (?). Even if those are truly his weaknesses, you watch him and think about what he can do/how he plays, and it's difficult not to think he'd be a phenomenal player to build around. Here's to hoping the stars finally align for us. Simmons/Embiid would automatically catapult us into having a top 2 young core along with Minnesota, regardless of their surrounding talent.

Unbreakable99 · Post #388 » by **Unbreakable99** » Wed May 4, 2016 3:30 am

Here is my ideal scenario. It involves luck and a dumb or eager GM.
1. We need the top pick and draft Simmons.
2. While I want the Lakers pick to roll over to next year because it's a better draft, in this scenario it needs to convey. This is where the dumb GM comes in. We need to trade that Lakers pick to a bad team for next year's unprotected pick. That will ensure we get a top 5 pick. Any pick in the top 10 will be better than anyone picked at 4 in this draft.
3. Since we have Simmons in this scenario that will allow us to trade Okafor. This is where we need an eager or dumb GM to help us out. I would call Portland to see if they would give us McCollum for Okafor. I think that is a fair trade but I doubt Portland bites. But let me dream.
4. With our late round pick. We draft Ulis.

Next year we could have a lineup of
Ulis
McCollum
Covington
Simmons
Embiid

Then in 2017 we can draft a PG to start and Ulis can be the backup. This is all without adding free agents too.

dkj5061 · Post #389 » by **dkj5061** » Wed May 4, 2016 3:58 am

I don't know how reliable it is, but Collin Cowherd said today that the Lakers are 100% trading their pick this year if they have it, even if it is number one. They apparently don't want to rebuild anymore and want to trade for a star. I like the possibility of us getting both Simmons and Ingram, but I think we would have a hard time convincing the Lakers that Okafor is the star they need haha. I hope it's possible though. I wouldn't hesitate in trading them their pick back plus Okafor for Simmons/Ingram.

Unbreakable99 · Post #390 » by **Unbreakable99** » Wed May 4, 2016 4:19 am

dkj5061 wrote:I don't know how reliable it is, but Collin Cowherd said today that the Lakers are 100% trading their pick this year if they have it, even if it is number one. They apparently don't want to rebuild anymore and want to trade for a star. I like the possibility of us getting both Simmons and Ingram, but I think we would have a hard time convincing the Lakers that Okafor is the star they need haha. I hope it's possible though. I wouldn't hesitate in trading them their pick back plus Okafor for Simmons/Ingram.

Lakers Re not trading their pick for Okafor. They passed on him last year. Even if they have the 3rd pick they won't trade it for Okafor.

eskimo · Post #391 » by **eskimo** » Wed May 4, 2016 7:34 pm

Unbreakable99 wrote:Here is my ideal scenario. It involves luck and a dumb or eager GM.
1. We need the top pick and draft Simmons.
2. While I want the Lakers pick to roll over to next year because it's a better draft, in this scenario it needs to convey. This is where the dumb GM comes in. We need to trade that Lakers pick to a bad team for next year's unprotected pick. That will ensure we get a top 5 pick. Any pick in the top 10 will be better than anyone picked at 4 in this draft.
3. Since we have Simmons in this scenario that will allow us to trade Okafor. This is where we need an eager or dumb GM to help us out. I would call Portland to see if they would give us McCollum for Okafor. I think that is a fair trade but I doubt Portland bites. But let me dream.
4. With our late round pick. We draft Ulis.

Next year we could have a lineup of
Ulis
McCollum
Covington
Simmons
Embiid

Then in 2017 we can draft a PG to start and Ulis can be the backup. This is all without adding free agents too.

I agree that if we draft Simmons (although I prefer Ingram) then Okafor would be the guy who doesn't fit. Even if Embiid were injured and never came back you can't play Okafor at 5 beside Simmons at 4 in the NBA.

Now having said that, it doesn't necessarily follow that you have to trade Okafor next year. I think a year of work on his mid-range game and conditioning would do wonders for his trade value. He already has an elite post game and a very good handle with an emerging face-up game. His FTs improved markedly last year. You add a reliable jumper to that and you have yourself a very good offensive player. If he could learn to recognize and pass out of double teams quickly you're probably talking about an elite offensive playmaker who can create his own shot and shots for others.

If he can make those gains you're basically talking about a young, budding superstar. He has such elite footwork and touch that I think he can do it.

OTOH, McCollum is a short SG, not much of a playmaker or defender but is a good shooter from deep. I don't think his skill set or physical profile is rare. I would argue trading Noel would make more sense as they really struggle with their interior defense. He would fit well in their motion offense where he is a good passer and finisher at the rim.

eskimo · Post #392 » by **eskimo** » Wed May 4, 2016 7:38 pm

Unbreakable99 wrote:
dkj5061 wrote:I don't know how reliable it is, but Collin Cowherd said today that the Lakers are 100% trading their pick this year if they have it, even if it is number one. They apparently don't want to rebuild anymore and want to trade for a star. I like the possibility of us getting both Simmons and Ingram, but I think we would have a hard time convincing the Lakers that Okafor is the star they need haha. I hope it's possible though. I wouldn't hesitate in trading them their pick back plus Okafor for Simmons/Ingram.

Lakers Re not trading their pick for Okafor. They passed on him last year. Even if they have the 3rd pick they won't trade it for Okafor.

I think the #3 pick would be of no relevance to us. Okafor arguably would be the #1 pick in this class and is only a bit older than Simmons. All this small ball nonsense has made people forget what a dominant scoring big man can do for the offense.

The key to it is that the big man has to be able to play off of the block. A little improvement in his mid-range jumper combined with his dribble drive game and he would basically be there. If only Towns weren't in the same draft and the Sixers weren't so historically bad the league would be talking up what Okafor accomplished in his rookie year. You just can't sell low on a guy with that rare of a skill set.

SparksFly87 · Post #393 » by **SparksFly87** » Wed May 4, 2016 8:19 pm

If we get second pick in the draft I would draft Ingram and move Noel for a young wing and build around Embiid/ Okafor and Ingram .

If we get the first pick and simmons . I would trade Okafor and assets to try to get the 2nd pick and acquire Ingram. We have the assets to do it.

Simmons and Ingram paired with Embiid and Noel as his back up would be great. Don't forget Saric too .

Embiid/Noel
Simmons/ Saric
Ingram/ Grant
--------/ Stauskus
------ / Mcconell

76ciology · Post #394 » by **76ciology** » Thu May 5, 2016 8:31 am

dkj5061 wrote:I don't know how reliable it is, but Collin Cowherd said today that the Lakers are 100% trading their pick this year if they have it, even if it is number one. They apparently don't want to rebuild anymore and want to trade for a star. I like the possibility of us getting both Simmons and Ingram, but I think we would have a hard time convincing the Lakers that Okafor is the star they need haha. I hope it's possible though. I wouldn't hesitate in trading them their pick back plus Okafor for Simmons/Ingram.

Smart move. The value of that top 2 pick should most likely decline as the hype subsides post-draft.

76ciology · Post #395 » by **76ciology** » Thu May 5, 2016 8:33 am

Yup, if we draft Simmons. I think Jah is the odd man out because Jah's max potential is at the PF playing that current role LMA plays with the Spurs.

If you draft Simmons, you can play fast with Nerlens and play semi-big with Biid.

76ciology · Post #396 » by **76ciology** » Thu May 5, 2016 8:35 am

Personally, I'd still take Ingram just like what I preferred in day 1.

I like the prospect of Ingram at the SF better than Simmons at the PF. I also think Ingram can make that Biid-Jah duo happen which I think is our edge against all teams because of his ability to space out the floor on offense and provide rim protection on defense.

rallydurham · Post #397 » by **rallydurham** » Fri May 6, 2016 12:11 pm

Simmons looks like a 4 to me. If you play him at he 3 you have zero spacing.

I think ingram is a good prospect but he's a lot more boom or bust, I can't see preferring him over Simmons who is pretty much guaranteed to have a successful career

PhilasFinest · Post #398 » by **PhilasFinest** » Fri May 6, 2016 1:07 pm

I don't even care which one we get at this point....I just want 1 of them guaranteed on daffy day.

Is this too much to ask!?

Unbreakable99 · Post #399 » by **Unbreakable99** » Fri May 6, 2016 3:45 pm

I think it's pretty clear Simmons is the best prospect. If we get the top pick it must be Simmons. If we get the 2nd pick we must hope the team picking first falls for Ingram so we can get Simmons.

Ericb5 · Post #400 » by **Ericb5** » Fri May 6, 2016 4:44 pm

SparksFly87 wrote:If we get second pick in the draft I would draft Ingram and move Noel for a young wing and build around Embiid/ Okafor and Ingram .

If we get the first pick and simmons . I would trade Okafor and assets to try to get the 2nd pick and acquire Ingram. We have the assets to do it.

I agree with this, but I would argue that even in the Ingram scenario, Okafor is a 50-50 proposition of working next to Embiid long term. That translates to his needing to be traded percentages as well.

I don't think that we keep Noel unless Embiid has a major set back.

If we get anyone other than Simmons I think that Okafor has a 50% need to trade percentage, but if we get Simmons then that percentage goes way up.

Okafor and Simmons next to each other are not a good combination. If Simmons can play the point on offense then offensively they could work ok, but Simmons can't guard the point so that is where things go into disarray.

You draft Simmons and figure it out later though under ALL circumstances. I don't think that Ingram's ceiling is close to as high as Simmons' ceiling, and his floor is probably not as high as Simmons' floor either. The one thing that he has over Simmons is that he is a much better fit to our current roster. I care very little about that.

We don't have to trade Okafor this summer if we get Simmons though for sure. We can try it for a while and make a move later if need be. I'm not trading Okafor unless I get a similar prospect that fits better, or in combination to get a star.