CBS Sports "reporting": Sixers reportedly plan to trade either Nerlens Noel or Jahlil Okafor

[the_process]

Disagree.

Embiid is the foundation of this team, if we are distilling it down to one player. He is the better player today, and the better player long term.

If he falters due to health it is great that we have a second franchise type guy in Simmons, but I take a healthy Embiid over Simmons all day. I will be happy to be proven wrong if they both stay healthy, and Simmons is the next Lebron, but my money is on Embiid.

We can't take 75 cents on the dollar for Noel or Okafor until we get to the point where we lose our leverage. We still have leverage until next summer with Noel.

Watch one of them break their leg in preseason and suddenly we end up keeping them both. Not asking for it obviously, but it would certainly free up some minutes.

Embiid cannot be counted on until he shows it on the court. And not just a reacclimation year where he plays 50-60 games, 750-1200 minutes. A full season, 65+ games, somewhere between 1800 and 2500 minutes. With no health issues. Then and only then does he become the franchise player. Until then, Simmons is the foundation. And if you get good luck with Embiid, then he makes your foundation that much stronger.

Counting on him, and him being the best player are too different things.

I'm not counting on him yet, although I am very optimistic, but he is still going to be our best offensive and defensive player, and basically the whole center of our universe, as Brett Brown says it, until he gets hurt, or doesn't get hurt.

I think people let his injury risk cloud their assessment of him as a player.


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By definition, your best player cannot be a guy you cannot count on, a guy who doesn't play.

Embiid is the most talented player on the roster. But the talent is useless if he doesn't suit up. You can't just be wowed by the talent without acknowledging the giant injury risk.

[the_process]

I think we should try and create a legit big three and throw a serious offer for Anthony. Davis with a combo of Noel , Okafor, Grant, Stauskus , Lakers , Kings swap and future 1st for anthony davis.

That's not even close enough to get AD. They would laugh the Sixers off the phone as they should. Noel and Okafor do nothing for to halp facilitate a trade with NO. The Lakers pick has lots of value only if it conveys next year. It may not even happen. The Lakers have a great chance to keep the pick and then who knows what about 2018 if that happens. And the 2018 draft is not as good as 2017. Davis is a known top 10 commodity. It's not a given even if the Lakers pick conveys at pick 4 if that player will ever be a top 10 player.

The only way you make NO think of trading Davis is including Ben Simmons in the trade. That's it.

I agree no AD trade happens now. But I disagree Simmons has to be in it.

Noel/Okafor (their choice), Saric, Covington, rights to Korkmaz, 2017 LAL 1st, 2018 PHI 1st, 2019 SAC 1st, 2020 PHI 1st.

That would be by far the biggest and most potential laden package ever sent out for one guy in league history. And if Hill and Moore and Hield bust like I think they will, it will be very difficult for them to recover and rebuild in the next 4 years AD is under contract. They very well could start thinking about moving on.

Most likely what happens though is AD asks out in three years after missing the playoffs twice more and exiting another in the 1st round. Then someone (hopefully the Sixers) offers a couple okay prospects and a couple decent picks and the deal is done.

[Ericb5]

Embiid cannot be counted on until he shows it on the court. And not just a reacclimation year where he plays 50-60 games, 750-1200 minutes. A full season, 65+ games, somewhere between 1800 and 2500 minutes. With no health issues. Then and only then does he become the franchise player. Until then, Simmons is the foundation. And if you get good luck with Embiid, then he makes your foundation that much stronger.

Counting on him, and him being the best player are too different things.

I'm not counting on him yet, although I am very optimistic, but he is still going to be our best offensive and defensive player, and basically the whole center of our universe, as Brett Brown says it, until he gets hurt, or doesn't get hurt.

I think people let his injury risk cloud their assessment of him as a player.


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By definition, your best player cannot be a guy you cannot count on, a guy who doesn't play.

Embiid is the most talented player on the roster. But the talent is useless if he doesn't suit up. You can't just be wowed by the talent without acknowledging the giant injury risk.

I acknowledge the giant injury risk every time I talk about him.

Your best player is simply your best player. There is no other criteria needed.

I don't think that Embiid will shake the injury risk until he plays his second full injury free season, and at that point he will theoretically be able to be counted on, but he can be our best player before then.


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[the_process]

By definition, your best player cannot be a guy you cannot count on, a guy who doesn't play.

Embiid is the most talented player on the roster. But the talent is useless if he doesn't suit up. You can't just be wowed by the talent without acknowledging the giant injury risk.

I acknowledge the giant injury risk every time I talk about him.

Your best player is simply your best player. There is no other criteria needed.

I don't think that Embiid will shake the injury risk until he plays his second full injury free season, and at that point he will theoretically be able to be counted on, but he can be our best player before then.

I couldn't disagree with this sentiment more. Best players are not just in YouTube workout videos.

It's just like the idea that because Okafor has a few under the rim offensive moves, that makes him starting C material.

But I digress. What I want I say is simply agree to disagree.

[LloydFree]

Teams 76ers big men would immediately become the Starting Center:

Nerlens Noel
Celtics, Hornets, Cavaliers, Warriors, Rockets, Lakers, Bulls, Bucks, Pelicans, Trailblazers, Raptors

Jahlil Okafor
Bulls, Hornets, Pelicans, Trailblazers

Based on their current personnel and/or systems, there is only a pool of 4 or 5 teams to deal with, if trying to move Okafor. At that point you have decide what these teams have to offer that would not shame you in a trade of a player you just drafted #3 overall. I think that is the reason no trade has happened.

[the_process]

Teams 76ers big men would immediately become the Starting Center:

Nerlens Noel
Celtics, Hornets, Cavaliers, Warriors, Rockets, Lakers, Bulls, Bucks, Pelicans, Trailblazers, Raptors

Jahlil Okafor
Bulls, Hornets, Pelicans, Trailblazers

Based on their current personnel and/or systems, there are only a pool of 4 or 5 teams to deal with, if trying to move Okafor. At that point you have decide what these teams have to offer that wouldn't shame you in a trade of a player you just drafted #3 overall. I think that is the reason no trade has happened.

Noel wouldn't start on TOR, they have Big Val. The rest look right.

You missed a big one for Jah IMO, though. Phoenix. Len looks to be a career backup and rumors have started Chandler is unhappy. Bender would be a nice fit next to Jah, at least in theory. Make it 3 way deal with a team that needs a young C... looking at HOU...

HOU gets Len and Stauskas
PHI gets Brewer, Knight, lotto protected 2017 HOU 1st, and 2018 MIA 1st
PHX gets Okafor, McDaniels, and Thompson

Knight/Rodriguez/McConnell
Henderson/Bayless/TLC
Covington/Grant/Brewer
Simmons/Saric/Holmes
Noel/Embiid/Brand

[LloydFree]

I thought about Phoenix for both Noel and Okafor, but decided neither fit because they not only have Len and Chandler (who they made a big investment in), but they now have Bender also. I don't think they would trade for either player honestly.
Houston sticks out like a sore thumb talent wise for Okafor, but there is no way on earth they would take Okafor into that system. The coach (Dantoni) wouldn't play him because he'd slow the whole team down and the front office wouldn't offer anything, because they are too analytically inclined to make that kind of error. For the same reasons, Golden State wouldn't take him. The Lakers would also be a longshot because they are seemingly trying to mimic the Warriors model.

[76ciology]

What I notice is that teams doesn't invest much on rim protector C, instead they go "moneyball" by acquiring 2-3 "Ezeli/Biyombo/Amir Johnson type C".

Why would you give up CJ McCullom when you can cheaply try out a rotation of Plumlee/Ed Davis/Ezeli?

These kind of bigs are still important, but they are abundant due to cheaper alternative to fill the need for one.

In this era, the best way to be a relevant team is thru offense (you'll be surprised how elite spurs offense is). Teams invest A LOT on players who can score then find cheaper alternative on defense thru cheap rim protectors or defensive schemes (see how OKC hide Kanter on D).

Who wouldn't want two way wings/guards who can shoot and defend that has similar value with Okafor/Noel? But this ain't happening this offseason.

Why not wait till the season ends when both bigs plays could be improved, with much talented teammates and would likely be more efficient with less responsibilities compared to last season?

If you want to clear the log jam for the sake of it, then just trade Jerami Grant or Holmes (I might even go the distance to trade Saric for similar value) then just have Noel, Jah and Biid as the only bigs on your team.

[76ciology]

..and my position has been the same. You'll just get useless trash for both Jah/Noel. The best return you can get is gambling for a 2017 first from a play-off hopeful team and crossing your fingers that it ends up being a lotto pick.

[jptremblay]

If they wait to training camp or preseason and they figure that they don't fit, that will devalue the trade offers... because they will know that FO is improblem and they will get profit of their desperation to move one of them

[LloydFree]

What I notice is that teams doesn't invest much on rim protector C, instead they go "moneyball" by acquiring 2-3 "Ezeli/Biyombo/Amir Johnson type C".

Where do you get this stuff?

No Defense Centers
Brook Lopez - 20m per
Greg Monroe - 17m per
Enes Kanter -17m per
Nik Vucevic - 12m per
Al Jefferson - 10m per

All defense - zero offense Centers
Andre Drummond 22m per
Hassan Whiteside 22m per
DeAndre Jordan 20m per
Bismack Biyombo 18m per
Joakim Noah - 17m per
Tyson Chandler - 12m per

And all of those NO defense Centers have been put on the bench... except Lopez... and you see where his team is right now.

[Ericb5]

By definition, your best player cannot be a guy you cannot count on, a guy who doesn't play.

Embiid is the most talented player on the roster. But the talent is useless if he doesn't suit up. You can't just be wowed by the talent without acknowledging the giant injury risk.

I acknowledge the giant injury risk every time I talk about him.

Your best player is simply your best player. There is no other criteria needed.

I don't think that Embiid will shake the injury risk until he plays his second full injury free season, and at that point he will theoretically be able to be counted on, but he can be our best player before then.

I couldn't disagree with this sentiment more. Best players are not just in YouTube workout videos.

It's just like the idea that because Okafor has a few under the rim offensive moves, that makes him starting C material.

But I digress. What I want I say is simply agree to disagree.

Embiid played a freshman season in college, and that is where any assessment of him as a player comes from. The workout videos just remind you what he is capable of. That, and his physical transformation since college makes it obvious that he is going to be even more dominant than what we saw before.

It all comes down to health for him.

Ok, we will all watch the games, and we will see who the best player will be. I will be happy to find out that it is Simmons if that is what ends up happening.

The important this is that they are both on our team, and the fact that it is even a debate as to who is better between the two shows how lucky we are because they are both studs.


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[76ciology]

What I notice is that teams doesn't invest much on rim protector C, instead they go "moneyball" by acquiring 2-3 "Ezeli/Biyombo/Amir Johnson type C".

Where do you get this stuff?

No Defense Centers
Brook Lopez - 20m per
Greg Monroe - 17m per
Enes Kanter -17m per
Nik Vucevic - 12m per
Al Jefferson - 10m per

All defense - zero offense Centers
Andre Drummond 22m per
Hassan Whiteside 22m per
DeAndre Jordan 20m per
Bismack Biyombo 18m per
Joakim Noah - 17m per
Tyson Chandler - 12m per

And all of those NO defense Centers have been put on the bench... except Lopez... and you see where his team is right now.

I'm talking about paying in trades, since the OP is about teams being interested and the team (shopping) both bigs. You can get a rim protector with non max $ or mid 1sts nowadays. Thus my statement of in the line of.."why would you give up CJ McCullom when you can have a cheap rotation of Plumlee/Ed Davis/Ezeli?"

And again, those "no defense bigs" you listed are positive oncourt defense (for Kanter, see play-off numbers). Because smart coaches do implement schemes and eventually they become better on reads on D because of experience. A smart coach like Clifford can make the Hornets play their best D with Al Jefferson (on court 99 DRTG).

*Jah is second on rim protection numbers behind BroLo on that list
*In terms of points saved/36, Jah is 4x better than both Monroe and Vuc (-.15 vs -.6+) and 6x better than Kanter (-.15 vs -.9). And we're comparing experienced bigs vs. a rookie.

And I don't care who start games because nowadays the most important line-up is not the one that starts, it's heavy offensive oriented called "deathball" line-ups, where a team like OKC had Waiters&Kanter on that line-up.

*only 4mpg difference between Steven Adams and Kanter

[76ciology]

If they wait to training camp or preseason and they figure that they don't fit, that will devalue the trade offers... because they will know that FO is improblem and they will get profit of their desperation to move one of them

Difference of trading now for Avery Bradley to trading later for Terry Rozier? Who cares. I'd rather take my chances and see how these bigs improve and perform on a more talented roster.

[LloydFree]

What I notice is that teams doesn't invest much on rim protector C, instead they go "moneyball" by acquiring 2-3 "Ezeli/Biyombo/Amir Johnson type C".

Where do you get this stuff?

No Defense Centers
Brook Lopez - 20m per
Greg Monroe - 17m per
Enes Kanter -17m per
Nik Vucevic - 12m per
Al Jefferson - 10m per

All defense - zero offense Centers
Andre Drummond 22m per
Hassan Whiteside 22m per
DeAndre Jordan 20m per
Bismack Biyombo 18m per
Joakim Noah - 17m per
Tyson Chandler - 12m per

And all of those NO defense Centers have been put on the bench... except Lopez... and you see where his team is right now.

I'm talking about paying in trades, since the OP is about teams being interested and the team (shopping) both bigs. You can get a rim protector with non max $ or mid 1sts nowadays...

And what Non-defensive Center on that list has been traded for even a mid-1st rounder? Kanter was traded for a late 1st round pick. Jefferson has been let go for no compensation twice. Monroe couldn't bring back any compensation to Detroit and Milwaukee can't get any for him now. What are you talking about?!!! Defensive Centers are getting minimum 17 per on every signing, and even washed-up defensive Centers like Tyson Chandler are still being traded for significant compensation, even at his high salary. There is no evidence whatsoever that shows defensive Centers are obtained for less than one dimensional, offensive Centers. In fact, every transaction the last two years shows the opposite. Cut it out. You're not making a bit of sense.

[APettyJ]

Why not wait till the season ends when both bigs plays could be improved, with much talented teammates and would likely be more efficient with less responsibilities compared to last season?

If you want to clear the log jam for the sake of it, then just trade Jerami Grant or Holmes (I might even go the distance to trade Saric for similar value) then just have Noel, Jah and Biid as the only bigs on your team.

Don't have to necessarily move a big to clear jam, at least from roster. Holmes is a 2nd year player. They should stash him in the D league before they get rid of a competent backup. For the life of me I wonder when teams will get a clue and use their squads this way. If one or both of Okafor and Noel are moved, it would be nice to still have Holmes, and there really isn't a reason for him not to be.

Why isn't Simmons playing at the three mentioned more when talking about solutions to the 'logjam'? While he is best suited perhaps guarding the four, he could be a capable defender at the three. Maybe not the most ideal, but then these aren't "most ideal" circumstances. Would playing at the three harm him developmentally?

Stash Holmes, remove Simmons from those needing minutes in the front court. Leaves the big four (Embiid, Noel, Okafor and Saric), plus Grant. I figured Okafor and Noel could get 26-30 mpg at the four or five, Saric and Embiid 20 mins or so. Embiid probably misses at least 20 games, 10 for Okafor and Noel; maybe Saric gets 5. 40-45 games where someone else will need to play 20 mins, or even divvy that up amongst more than one player, like Covington and Grant.

This math seems too simple; why all the consternation?

[APettyJ]

On the subject of whether or not Okafor and Noel can play together, did any else read this thoroughly good analysis posted on Libertyballers.com a couple months back? http://www.libertyballers.com/2016/7/23/12261626/trying-to-explain-why-okafor-noel-didnt-work#comments

It seems simple enough: put Jah at the 4, leave Noel at the 5. Train Jah to stay out of Noel's offensive sweet spot, which is by the basket and to the left when facing it. Jah took a large amount of shots there, rather than feed Noel. Hooking Noel up there could inspire Noel to cover Jah's deficiencies on defense more. They could truly play as team, enhancing each other's strengths while helping to smooth over their weaknesses.

Is BB and JC keeping quiet on this until the season? Again, seems like a simple fix, if not easy.

[76ciology]

Why not wait till the season ends when both bigs plays could be improved, with much talented teammates and would likely be more efficient with less responsibilities compared to last season?

If you want to clear the log jam for the sake of it, then just trade Jerami Grant or Holmes (I might even go the distance to trade Saric for similar value) then just have Noel, Jah and Biid as the only bigs on your team.

Don't have to necessarily move a big to clear jam, at least from roster. Holmes is a 2nd year player. They should stash him in the D league before they get rid of a competent backup. For the life of me I wonder when teams will get a clue and use their squads this way. If one or both of Okafor and Noel are moved, it would be nice to still have Holmes, and there really isn't a reason for him not to be.

Why isn't Simmons playing at the three mentioned more when talking about solutions to the 'logjam'? While he is best suited perhaps guarding the four, he could be a capable defender at the three. Maybe not the most ideal, but then these aren't "most ideal" circumstances. Would playing at the three harm him developmentally?

Stash Holmes, remove Simmons from those needing minutes in the front court. Leaves the big four (Embiid, Noel, Okafor and Saric), plus Grant. I figured Okafor and Noel could get 26-30 mpg at the four or five, Saric and Embiid 20 mins or so. Embiid probably misses at least 20 games, 10 for Okafor and Noel; maybe Saric gets 5. 40-45 games where someone else will need to play 20 mins, or even divvy that up amongst more than one player, like Covington and Grant.

This math seems too simple; why all the consternation?

We are on the same boat here. I also have Saric and Simmons playing mostly at 3. With around 10-12 mins each for Jerami Grant and Holmes. If Holmes is sent to the DLeague, then that leaves you 20+mpg for Grant, Noel, Biid and Jah at the PF/C positions. I don't see a log jam and I don't see a surefire long term benefit by trading dollar for 50 cents for Jah/Noel. Our 3 bigs rotation can work similarly like how Spurs/OKC did theirs.

[76ciology]

Where do you get this stuff?

No Defense Centers
Brook Lopez - 20m per
Greg Monroe - 17m per
Enes Kanter -17m per
Nik Vucevic - 12m per
Al Jefferson - 10m per

All defense - zero offense Centers
Andre Drummond 22m per
Hassan Whiteside 22m per
DeAndre Jordan 20m per
Bismack Biyombo 18m per
Joakim Noah - 17m per
Tyson Chandler - 12m per

And all of those NO defense Centers have been put on the bench... except Lopez... and you see where his team is right now.

I'm talking about paying in trades, since the OP is about teams being interested and the team (shopping) both bigs. You can get a rim protector with non max $ or mid 1sts nowadays...

And what Non-defensive Center on that list has been traded for even a mid-1st rounder? Kanter was traded for a late 1st round pick. Jefferson has been let go for no compensation twice. Monroe couldn't bring back any compensation to Detroit and Milwaukee can't get any for him now. What are you talking about?!!! Defensive Centers are getting minimum 17 per on every signing, and even washed-up defensive Centers like Tyson Chandler are still being traded for significant compensation, even at his high salary. There is no evidence whatsoever that shows defensive Centers are obtained for less than one dimensional, offensive Centers. In fact, every transaction the last two years shows the opposite. Cut it out. You're not making a bit of sense.

Sorry but I think you got me wrong.

1.) Jah has more star potential in scoring that the players you listed.
2.) Jah is way better rim protector than all the no-defense centers you listed except for BroLo.
3.) Putting a heavy weight on rim protection and individual scoring numbers, Jah is closer to DMC than Kanter.
4.) Although I do understand your negative sentiment on his style of play. I think it's fair for everyone to expect improvement from Jah and to say that the team is all time level horrible last season.
5.) Not for a mid 1st, but almost traded Jah to the Celtics for the 3rd overall pick. Probably because Jah plays good individual defense and better rim protection that most scoring centers.

[LloydFree]

I'm talking about paying in trades, since the OP is about teams being interested and the team (shopping) both bigs. You can get a rim protector with non max $ or mid 1sts nowadays...

And what Non-defensive Center on that list has been traded for even a mid-1st rounder? Kanter was traded for a late 1st round pick. Jefferson has been let go for no compensation twice. Monroe couldn't bring back any compensation to Detroit and Milwaukee can't get any for him now. What are you talking about?!!! Defensive Centers are getting minimum 17 per on every signing, and even washed-up defensive Centers like Tyson Chandler are still being traded for significant compensation, even at his high salary. There is no evidence whatsoever that shows defensive Centers are obtained for less than one dimensional, offensive Centers. In fact, every transaction the last two years shows the opposite. Cut it out. You're not making a bit of sense.

Sorry but I think you got me wrong.
1.) I didn't specifically state no-defense centers are more expensive than defensive centers, maybe try to quote the entire post so you don't get lost.
2.) Jah has more star potential in scoring that the players you listed.
3.) Jah is way better rim protector than all the no-defense centers you listed except for BroLo.
4.) Putting a heavy weight on rim protection and individual scoring numbers, Jah is closer to DMC than Kanter.
5.) Although I do understand your negative sentiment on his style of play. I think it's fair for everyone to expect improvement from Jah and to say that the team is all time level horrible last season.
6.) Almost traded Jah to the Celtics for the 3rd overall pick. So yeah, maybe it's because the bright people of the Celtics FO doesn't also consider Jah as one of the non-defensive centers category.

Don't get insulted when someone calls you out on your incorrect arguments. I understand perfectly fine what you are "trying" to say. "What are you talking about?" is rhetorical. Crafting a convoluted, nonsensical argument for a player you like, doesn't make anybody change their opinion.

You'd be better off just saying 'I know Okafor was bad last year, but he is young and I believe he is big and agile enough to become very good defensively, because he compares favorably to Marc Gasol'. Thats a hypothetical that can't be argued. OTOH, Making up false (or convoluted short sample size) arguments just insults everyone.