The Tomjas Thread

[Samson]

Can there be any doubt whatsoever it's all just BS to get paid?

The moron Agent made a few serious miscalculations and the 76ers were smarter than him. Contract/CBA let's us not pay you, haha sucka.

It's almost a certainty that the Agent/his people got some smart Lawyer to take apart the contract / CBA / league By-Laws / whatever you want to call it, and piece together the mental health strategy. I would almost think it's a case of "Well the 76ers team doctors have a prognosis and treatment options and yeah, you can have all the nice warm cups of Herbal Tea before, during, and after games you want, along with talking about your feelings and heck maybe even medication [I'd be almost certain he'd refuse medication because he would know he wasn't actually sick...] - but you're certainly capable of 2.5hrs of working your chosen Occupation..." whereas now they can't even talk to him and the League is NOT GOING TO BE THE ONES to say "He's faking..."

I hurt my back at work around this time 2008... and it was bad, really bad. I had blown my knee wrestling a decade or so prior, and probably ruined my back trying to protect my knee - anyway- around around now 2010, I had major surgery. Since it happened at work it went through Workman's Comp. (I was hungover that day and bored as hell and so I helped the young stock boys with the cases of wine. I didn't even HAVE TO DO IT, and one case was the downfall of my L5-S1 lol.) The whole process takes a long time and many different doctors and psych doctors even. And Our Side presents me as permanently scarred for all life, inside and out, and in addition to his poor body, it has harmed his poor heart & soul.... THEN, their side basically tries the whole "He needs to STFU and get on with life. So what they cut your stomach open, moved your guts aside, took out your natural disc, and put in a prosthesis? It HURTS you? Poor baby. Wahh wahh cry us a river. Oh and our Pysch Doc think's you're a little bitch...[their side Psychiatrist was extremely rude to me. I almost had to explain- You're not my Dad nor my Doctor, so I am not sure why you would think you can talk to me like that...]" and obviously the truth is neither of those, so some Judge gets to make decisions. (The funny thing is, in my case, I barely got much money at all - and the Judge was a very nice, ~50ish woman, who was almost *apologetic* to me... "The stuff I read about you in all these files, that is nothing like the person you are here today... I can't believe ANY of this stuff now having met you and heard you talk and answer questions... If I had realized that, I might have *insisted* they do much more for you..." - and I'm thinking, well nice to say, but... doesn't actually do anything for me...)

The reason I say all that story - it reminds me of this situation in a couple-a-few-ways...I think their side is playing it like that. They are now getting paid, priority #1, and they had to accomplish that ASAP, which they did. Now the priority is #2- ensure he KEEPS GETTING PAID by not falling for a trap or making a tactical mistake, and #3 continue to push for the trade he wants. I hate the fact that we were winning at first and they pulled a cheatcode but... the war is not over.

[Wilfried]

Celtics fan here. Do you guys think the Sixers would consider a deal centered around Smart, Schroder, Robert Williams and pick(s)/prospect(s)? Maybe reroute Robert Williams to a third team cause the Sixers already got Embiid. For instance, how about something like this?



Smart is arguably the second most versatile guard defender in the NBA behind only Simmons (who ain't exactly a guard to begin with). Schroder is an explosive guard who can change the pace of the game. He can create shots either for himself or for his teammates. Robert Williams is an elite rim protector. One of the best rim runners in the NBA. Nesmith cannot put the ball on the floor, hence he cannot create his own shot. He projects to become a 3+D role player.

Obviously, the Sixers would ask for Brown (if they haven't already). I really don't think the Celtics would make Tatum/Brown available.

If the Celtics keep underachieving, I'd expect them to make a move for Simmons as soon as Smart becomes trade eligible (January 20). My guess is we've already tabled an offer, which was obviously turned down. Fwiw, here's a quote from Zach Lowe:

The wild card team to me is Boston. We talk about good teams that control all their picks. We don't hear about the Celtics very much. The Celtics I think will be looking in the situation where we are not trading Jaylen Brown, we are not trading Jayson Tatum, but hey, we got all these picks, we got all these swaps, we can get in on these trades. The problem is it would have to be a 3-team trade because they are not trading Jaylen Brown or Jayson Tatum. They like I think the idea of Simmons, plus Tatum, plus Brown as their sort of 3 super-sized wings. All good defenders. Simmons can screen and run and pass. I think that's an interesting one, but I think it would have to be a tricky 3-team trade.

Now that's a bad trade proposal

I feel a trade with Celtics should at least look like:
Brown + Smart + filler for Simmons and Tobias

I know everyone think they are on the flee market when it comes to trading for Simmons, but if it were, he would already be traded.

[Sixerscan]

Celtics fan here. Do you guys think the Sixers would consider a deal centered around Smart, Schroder, Robert Williams and pick(s)/prospect(s)? Maybe reroute Robert Williams to a third team cause the Sixers already got Embiid. For instance, how about something like this?



Smart is arguably the second most versatile guard defender in the NBA behind only Simmons (who ain't exactly a guard to begin with). Schroder is an explosive guard who can change the pace of the game. He can create shots either for himself or for his teammates. Robert Williams is an elite rim protector. One of the best rim runners in the NBA. Nesmith cannot put the ball on the floor, hence he cannot create his own shot. He projects to become a 3+D role player.

Obviously, the Sixers would ask for Brown (if they haven't already). I really don't think the Celtics would make Tatum/Brown available.

If the Celtics keep underachieving, I'd expect them to make a move for Simmons as soon as Smart becomes trade eligible (January 20). My guess is we've already tabled an offer, which was obviously turned down. Fwiw, here's a quote from Zach Lowe:

If the Sixers were willing to take an offer like this, this whole situation would have been over months ago with Simmons on the Wolves or Kings.

Celtics should trade Brown btw. Maybe not for Simmons (though that seems like the best way to recoup the pure talent atm) but they clearly need to balance their roster better.

Brown is at his best when playing at SG. He's mobile enough to stay in front of explosive guards on the perimeter. At the same time, he's taller/longer than most SGs, which allows him to shoot over his opponents or take them to basket. Likewise, Tatum is at his best when playing at PF. Traditional PFs aren't mobile enough to stay in front of him on the perimeter. This is a massive advantage in favour of Tatum, especially since he can put the ball on the floor and create his own shot. Don't see why trading Brown would balance the Celtics roster. If anything, I would argue that Brown is a tiny bit undersized (6'6'') to play at SF.

I understand your point regarding Simmons. Just because the Sixers are holding out for a fair offer, it doesn't mean they'll actually find such an offer.

They can certainly play together, my point is more a question of if it is really the best use of resources to have two shot creating and defensive wings (2s, 3s, 4s whatever) when you don't have a point guard on the roster or a good big man. It just seems pretty clear that you shouldn't dumpster dive at both of those spots.

Keeping both made sense a few years ago when they had a stacked roster but those days are long gone, which is part of why for a while now Celtics fans have been trying to turn all these mediocre pieces into another star.

Understood the Sixers may not find such an offer, but my point is that has been a concern since the beginning, which is why they're not just going to turn around and take the offer from your team just because the Celtics may have decided to get into the fray like 6 months in after realizing they overrated their roster all summer. The Celtics can get in line with the Wolves and Kings if they want to make this kind of offer, frankly if the Sixers took this sort of offer I assume they'd be more inclined to send him out west than to the Celtics of all teams.

[mzfk69]

Celtics fan here. Do you guys think the Sixers would consider a deal centered around Smart, Schroder, Robert Williams and pick(s)/prospect(s)? Maybe reroute Robert Williams to a third team cause the Sixers already got Embiid. For instance, how about something like this?



Smart is arguably the second most versatile guard defender in the NBA behind only Simmons (who ain't exactly a guard to begin with). Schroder is an explosive guard who can change the pace of the game. He can create shots either for himself or for his teammates. Robert Williams is an elite rim protector. One of the best rim runners in the NBA. Nesmith cannot put the ball on the floor, hence he cannot create his own shot. He projects to become a 3+D role player.

Obviously, the Sixers would ask for Brown (if they haven't already). I really don't think the Celtics would make Tatum/Brown available.

If the Celtics keep underachieving, I'd expect them to make a move for Simmons as soon as Smart becomes trade eligible (January 20). My guess is we've already tabled an offer, which was obviously turned down. Fwiw, here's a quote from Zach Lowe:

The wild card team to me is Boston. We talk about good teams that control all their picks. We don't hear about the Celtics very much. The Celtics I think will be looking in the situation where we are not trading Jaylen Brown, we are not trading Jayson Tatum, but hey, we got all these picks, we got all these swaps, we can get in on these trades. The problem is it would have to be a 3-team trade because they are not trading Jaylen Brown or Jayson Tatum. They like I think the idea of Simmons, plus Tatum, plus Brown as their sort of 3 super-sized wings. All good defenders. Simmons can screen and run and pass. I think that's an interesting one, but I think it would have to be a tricky 3-team trade.

Now that's a bad trade proposal

I feel a trade with Celtics should at least look like:
Brown + Smart + filler for Simmons and Tobias

I know everyone think they are on the flee market when it comes to trading for Simmons, but if it were, he would already be traded.

Brown was not traded for Kawhi, Davis, or Harden, but of course they will say goodbye to him for Simmons.
Sounds plausible.

[Stanford]

Brown was not traded for Kawhi, Davis, or Harden, but of course they will say goodbye to him for Simmons.
Sounds plausible.

Good point. Simmons wasn't traded for Kawhi either. Weird and wild stuff going on

[phillynative]

So we are supposed to trade Ben for 3 players who are at their best off the bench?

[stormi]

So we are supposed to trade Ben for 3 players who are at their best off the bench?

"""Schroder is an explosive guard who can change the pace of the game"""

[Wilfried]

I feel a trade with Celtics should at least look like:
Brown + Smart + filler for Simmons and Tobias

I know everyone think they are on the flee market when it comes to trading for Simmons, but if it were, he would already be traded.

Brown was not traded for Kawhi, Davis, or Harden, but of course they will say goodbye to him for Simmons.
Sounds plausible.

Lol

Well, maybe the 38-41 record from the last season and this season combined, starts to make Boston realize Jaylen Brown isn't the second coming of MJ after all

[Slacktard]

There is no trade with Boston where the Sixers trade Ben Simmons and the best player they get back is Marcus Smart. Absolutely ZERO CHANCE.

If some Boston fan wants to craft a 3-way trade where Boston draft picks and bench players along with Marcus Smart somehow get the Sixers a player much better than Marcus Smart? Sure. Have at it...

[Iverson Armband]

The Celtics are not trading Jaylen Brown for a head case who can’t shoot, lol.

We’re also not trading Ben for a headcase who can’t shoot (Smart). It’s really simple.

[Negrodamus]

While I like to jump in on other fan bases giving us the business on our board, why would the Celtic ever trade Jaylen Brown for Ben? I just don’t understand the rationale other than “I want him and he fits well”.

[Sixerscan]

While I like to jump in on other fan bases giving us the business on our board, why would the Celtic ever trade Jaylen Brown for Ben? I just don’t understand the rationale other than “I want him and he fits well”.

Yeah I get responding to any Celtic offer as saying you would only take Brown or Tatum, but it just seems unrealistic to act like it has much of a chance of happening, much less de facto comparing all potential trade returns to the potential of getting Brown.

[deep6er]

Can there be any doubt whatsoever it's all just BS to get paid?

The moron Agent made a few serious miscalculations and the 76ers were smarter than him. Contract/CBA let's us not pay you, haha sucka.

It's almost a certainty that the Agent/his people got some smart Lawyer to take apart the contract / CBA / league By-Laws / whatever you want to call it, and piece together the mental health strategy. I would almost think it's a case of "Well the 76ers team doctors have a prognosis and treatment options and yeah, you can have all the nice warm cups of Herbal Tea before, during, and after games you want, along with talking about your feelings and heck maybe even medication [I'd be almost certain he'd refuse medication because he would know he wasn't actually sick...] - but you're certainly capable of 2.5hrs of working your chosen Occupation..." whereas now they can't even talk to him and the League is NOT GOING TO BE THE ONES to say "He's faking..."

I hurt my back at work around this time 2008... and it was bad, really bad. I had blown my knee wrestling a decade or so prior, and probably ruined my back trying to protect my knee - anyway- around around now 2010, I had major surgery. Since it happened at work it went through Workman's Comp. (I was hungover that day and bored as hell and so I helped the young stock boys with the cases of wine. I didn't even HAVE TO DO IT, and one case was the downfall of my L5-S1 lol.) The whole process takes a long time and many different doctors and psych doctors even. And Our Side presents me as permanently scarred for all life, inside and out, and in addition to his poor body, it has harmed his poor heart & soul.... THEN, their side basically tries the whole "He needs to STFU and get on with life. So what they cut your stomach open, moved your guts aside, took out your natural disc, and put in a prosthesis? It HURTS you? Poor baby. Wahh wahh cry us a river. Oh and our Pysch Doc think's you're a little bitch...[their side Psychiatrist was extremely rude to me. I almost had to explain- You're not my Dad nor my Doctor, so I am not sure why you would think you can talk to me like that...]" and obviously the truth is neither of those, so some Judge gets to make decisions. (The funny thing is, in my case, I barely got much money at all - and the Judge was a very nice, ~50ish woman, who was almost *apologetic* to me... "The stuff I read about you in all these files, that is nothing like the person you are here today... I can't believe ANY of this stuff now having met you and heard you talk and answer questions... If I had realized that, I might have *insisted* they do much more for you..." - and I'm thinking, well nice to say, but... doesn't actually do anything for me...)

The reason I say all that story - it reminds me of this situation in a couple-a-few-ways...I think their side is playing it like that. They are now getting paid, priority #1, and they had to accomplish that ASAP, which they did. Now the priority is #2- ensure he KEEPS GETTING PAID by not falling for a trap or making a tactical mistake, and #3 continue to push for the trade he wants. I hate the fact that we were winning at first and they pulled a cheatcode but... the war is not over.

Hey, sorry to hear about your back. After a lifetime of thinking I'm unbreakable, I'm getting back problems and it's effin miserable.

The negotiations here are pretty different than your labor dispute though. No offense, but Ben is a much more valuable asset to his org than you were to yours. The value in your negotiations had very little to do with your individual circumstance and much more to do with the orgs need to keep all settlements as low as possible. In Ben's case these negotiations are all about this particular circumstance (some may argue that Morey needs to take a hard stand to prevent all max players from forcing trades whenever they want, but that's BS, Morey has shown that he could give a **** about the affect of these negotiations on the league and is all about maximizing value for his club, whether you agree his tactics will produce that is another story).

The big question... is this mental health story all BS? It's not so simple. We have a lot of armchair psychologists in the forum trying to diagnose Ben. I am a licensed professional therapist and I promise you that as fun as it is to try, it is nearly impossible to make an accurate clinical diagnosis from instagram posts, public actions and messages through reps. What is obvious, is that Ben has taken actions that are not in his best interests (unless his interests involve tanking his professional reputation and commercial marketability). It is unclear if he has taken these actions based purely on bad management advice or because of performance anxiety or something else entirely, but one has to suspect that in order to consistently play this situation so poorly, there has to be some sort of overriding emotional need not to be on the court with the Sixers.

Now does this mean that Ben has a mental health impairment that would entitle him to protections in a more traditional workplace? No, it doesn't. He could have an underlying anxiety disorder, but only a thorough psycho/social eval would let us know about that. So, you're right, most of our workplaces would laugh at us if we came to them like Ben. But, I will say in my professional opinion based on my observations of public statements and behaviors... Diagnosis: Something is up with this dude. It's not that he's just straight up faking, it's that he has created such a mental aversion to playing for the Sixers that he is willing to damage himself to avoid doing so, and well, that's something. Not something that our employers would care about, but it would be nice if they did. Also, he is a 25 year old who has lived life with few responsibilities beyond being good at basketball and is not good at making life decisions.

I do hope that he is getting legitimate mental health therapy, because whether he has a diagnosable disorder or not, he clearly needs to work through some issues. As a Sixers fan, I hope it leads to him being able confront his fears so that he can focus on playing basketball for the absurd amount of money he is being paid. I will forever hate him if he forces us into a bad trade, but is this mental health piece totally fraudulent? Certainly not in any provable way and probably not in any other meaningful way.

[Bum Adebayo]

It is only fair to trade a player with mental health issues for another player with mental health issues, Simmons for Kyrie, make it happen!

[DCasey91]

Pritchard
Langford
Tatum
Simmons
Horford

Straight up >>>> then the Celtics team right now.

Fine be the Blazers or Clippers and not achieve that’s cool. Simmons will just get moved some place else.

[VDT]

It would require us to trade Ben++ for those guys and I'm not even sure we have the desired assets they would be searching for.

Such a trade would be the only one that makes sense for the Sixers as its the only one that could net an upgrade. The Sixers are still trying to win the title within the next 2-3 years and for that they need to upgrade Simmons adding some picks to do that. Long shot but probably the only path to a title.

[sixers hoops]

I don’t think Shams report is significant, but it doesn’t indicate both sides are liking in for a long battle. I was on record as saying I would take the best offer on the table in July because I didn’t like the odds of a long stalemate playing out in a better trade offer. However, I think Morey is very smart and calculated, so I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

If Morey and ownership are committed to seeing this plan through, it could still work, but it doesn’t look good. Embiid not getting surgery and Tobias getting covid, just puts more focus on our lack of depth, and a long losing streak could put pressure on Morey. I don’t think Ben has gained any leverage, but I think the Sixers struggling will put some more heat on Morey, as he might have to start fining Ben again. Morey and ownership might not care though and take each step in stride.

I just don’t see that either side has really blinked yet, since Ben reported to gain more leverage by officially taking a mental health leave. This could play out for a while, and Tobias and Joel being periodically unavailable is tough for the Sixers. And you really have to give Ben a month of mental health treatment before expecting him to play. Mental illness generally takes a few weeks of therapy, and medicine, just to be functional.

Morey was prepared for a long battle, and we are six weeks in, with little progress. I think a key point will be when the independent psychologist releases evaluation results to the league. That will give Ben a determination to return or continue receiving treatment. Either way, I don’t see his long game. I think the Sixers are in this for the long run. If Ben sits a whole season, it wouldn’t be good for his brand. He could prob work out an arrangement where he plays 20 games or so, then if they don’t trade him, he seeks mental health treatment. It would seem to be his quickest route to a new team.

[Negrodamus]

I don’t think Shams report is significant, but it doesn’t indicate both sides are liking in for a long battle. I was on record as saying I would take the best offer on the table in July because I didn’t like the odds of a long stalemate playing out in a better trade offer. However, I think Morey is very smart and calculated, so I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

If Morey and ownership are committed to seeing this plan through, it could still work, but it doesn’t look good. Embiid not getting surgery and Tobias getting covid, just puts more focus on our lack of depth, and a long losing streak could put pressure on Morey. I don’t think Ben has gained any leverage, but I think the Sixers struggling will put some more heat on Morey, as he might have to start fining Ben again. Morey and ownership might not care though and take each step in stride.

I just don’t see that either side has really blinked yet, since Ben reported to gain more leverage by officially taking a mental health leave. This could play out for a while, and Tobias and Joel being periodically unavailable is tough for the Sixers. And you really have to give Ben a month of mental health treatment before expecting him to play. Mental illness generally takes a few weeks of therapy, and medicine, just to be functional.

Morey was prepared for a long battle, and we are six weeks in, with little progress. I think a key point will be when the independent psychologist releases evaluation results to the league. That will give Ben a determination to return or continue receiving treatment. Either way, I don’t see his long game. I think the Sixers are in this for the long run. If Ben sits a whole season, it wouldn’t be good for his brand. He could prob work out an arrangement where he plays 20 games or so, then if they don’t trade him, he seeks mental health treatment. It would seem to be his quickest route to a new team.

Yea, I think this will end poorly for the Sixers. I don't think Morey has dealt with a player that's willing to go scorched earth to get what they want. In the end, Ben is going to be viewed as a toxic asset whether it's because he's willing to fake mental illness or because he is actually suffering a mental illness and teams, unfortunately, don't really want to deal with that. I'm willing to bet that a certain amount of the league has Ben completely off their radar because of the aforementioned reason, thus dwindling our suitors. This could actually go on for the entire year and end up with us footing Ben's salary. That's fine with him and Rich, and leaves us hoping someone is truly struggling and desperate to make a move. The next CBA will be wild due to this situation.

Owners will not want to be stuck with this situation ever again.

[Sixerscan]

I don’t think Shams report is significant, but it doesn’t indicate both sides are liking in for a long battle. I was on record as saying I would take the best offer on the table in July because I didn’t like the odds of a long stalemate playing out in a better trade offer. However, I think Morey is very smart and calculated, so I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

If Morey and ownership are committed to seeing this plan through, it could still work, but it doesn’t look good. Embiid not getting surgery and Tobias getting covid, just puts more focus on our lack of depth, and a long losing streak could put pressure on Morey. I don’t think Ben has gained any leverage, but I think the Sixers struggling will put some more heat on Morey, as he might have to start fining Ben again. Morey and ownership might not care though and take each step in stride.

I just don’t see that either side has really blinked yet, since Ben reported to gain more leverage by officially taking a mental health leave. This could play out for a while, and Tobias and Joel being periodically unavailable is tough for the Sixers. And you really have to give Ben a month of mental health treatment before expecting him to play. Mental illness generally takes a few weeks of therapy, and medicine, just to be functional.

Morey was prepared for a long battle, and we are six weeks in, with little progress. I think a key point will be when the independent psychologist releases evaluation results to the league. That will give Ben a determination to return or continue receiving treatment. Either way, I don’t see his long game. I think the Sixers are in this for the long run. If Ben sits a whole season, it wouldn’t be good for his brand. He could prob work out an arrangement where he plays 20 games or so, then if they don’t trade him, he seeks mental health treatment. It would seem to be his quickest route to a new team.

Morey asked nicely this time so that he has cover if they want to ask less nicely next time. IDK if Ben has some mental stuff going on, but even assuming he does, he's making it very clear that he's not sharing anything or being anymore cooperative until they start taking money away again. At a certain point the organization is going to get sick of it and ask for more tangible proof of what he's claiming if he wants to get paid.

When that is IDK. Like before, he's probably hoping there's a trade before it gets to that.

[Tomjas]

I don’t think Shams report is significant, but it doesn’t indicate both sides are liking in for a long battle. I was on record as saying I would take the best offer on the table in July because I didn’t like the odds of a long stalemate playing out in a better trade offer. However, I think Morey is very smart and calculated, so I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

If Morey and ownership are committed to seeing this plan through, it could still work, but it doesn’t look good. Embiid not getting surgery and Tobias getting covid, just puts more focus on our lack of depth, and a long losing streak could put pressure on Morey. I don’t think Ben has gained any leverage, but I think the Sixers struggling will put some more heat on Morey, as he might have to start fining Ben again. Morey and ownership might not care though and take each step in stride.

I just don’t see that either side has really blinked yet, since Ben reported to gain more leverage by officially taking a mental health leave. This could play out for a while, and Tobias and Joel being periodically unavailable is tough for the Sixers. And you really have to give Ben a month of mental health treatment before expecting him to play. Mental illness generally takes a few weeks of therapy, and medicine, just to be functional.

Morey was prepared for a long battle, and we are six weeks in, with little progress. I think a key point will be when the independent psychologist releases evaluation results to the league. That will give Ben a determination to return or continue receiving treatment. Either way, I don’t see his long game. I think the Sixers are in this for the long run. If Ben sits a whole season, it wouldn’t be good for his brand. He could prob work out an arrangement where he plays 20 games or so, then if they don’t trade him, he seeks mental health treatment. It would seem to be his quickest route to a new team.

Simmons brand?

That’s the biggest load of nonsense

The guy doesn’t care about marketing at all