Where is Nerlens?

[Sixerscan]

C's fan, not trying to troll, no trade offers to make. But my guess is they think Jah might still be moldable into a 4- his face the basket game is amazing, if he can add a little bit of a shot, and drill in defensive effort/agility, it's not an unreasonable bet. And he's health insurance. Simmons may have the flexibility to play the 3, the 4, and the 1. And Nerlens is the odd man out, but they're not getting trade offers they like, are going to wait and see if other teams' fortunes change, either with injuries or internal dynamics. If they don't, he's either a QO or an extension, to get his money and be traded later. Clearly in a holding pattern now, though. Other angle is to trade him for a future pick, or try to get another team's sleeper reserve.

You talk more sense than half this board. I think your assessment is spot on as well.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Thanks.. I mean it's just how these things tend to go. Probably the safest move is to try to trade him now the way Boston did Rondo, looking for a Crowder-esque sleeper. But that's a perfect example, we had an IT/Mclemore/3 1sts offer that didn't pan out (Rondo didn't want to go to Sacramento), ended up with a less appealing deal. Or we were talking Pierce to Brooklyn for an unprotected lotto pick (that went to Portland for Wallace, who drafted Damian Lillard), and when that evaporated, the next best offer was for a late 1st from Cleveland. Eventually the KG/Pierce deal came out of nowhere. But it's very tough to predict, and that's pretty much all luck/circumstance.

That's hilarious. Screwed the celtics out of a great offer because he didn't want to go to a team that he ended up signing with a year later.

[76ciology]

Regarding the position that we shouldn't waste these "great talents we've drafted": Teams make mistakes in drafts. Only teams like the 80's Bulls and the recent Thunder teams, hit on 3-4 drafts in a row. The 76ers tanked 3 years: They got 2 future stars (Embiid and Simmons). Mission accomplished.

Expecting to draft three straight stars is unreasonable. The 76ers blew the 2015 draft. Pure and simple. We'll just have to hope the 2014 and 2016 draft makes up for that. Worrying about the "tanked" 2014/15 season, being for nothing, is wasted energy. I'm not worried about getting a perceived "50¢ on the dollar" for these back-ups. Whatever they get will likely be just as useful to the team as what they trade away.

Agree with cutting with your losses early.

The difference is some here, like me, thinks it's too early to cut your loss with a talented player with physical tools that did well or atleast wasn't bad on individual standpoint (individual scoring/defense/rim protection) like Jah after just 50+ games of playing with a horrible team. Like BC said, if we are offered with something good then we'll do the deal but we won't be on a losing end of a deal just to clear a problem and be presented on a new one (deduction in total assets/talent).

We need to chill on making final/close decisions and favor rooting for them to succeed until a larger and more credible size of data tells us that X player is a lost cause in terms of player development or fit.

By what measure did Okafor play well?

Per game rank among all NBA Centers:

FG% : 29th
Rebs: 28th
Blks: 22nd
Ast: 26th
Stls: 41st
FT%: 27th

Advanced Stats:

Oh never mind... because advanced stats, when applied to Okafor, are nothing but voodoo, that don't take in account that he was "only 19" and played with "historically bad teammates."

Scoring:
http://www.libertyballers.com/2016/3/1/11139376/jahlil-okafor-is-putting-up-historical-offensive-numbers

Individual defense:
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1626143/tracking/defense/

Read on Twitter

Rim protection:

Read on Twitter

Leaving out points per game when pointing basic stats and not bolding the specific individual stats I mentioned in my original post tells your agenda. But it's understandable given u want to prove your point and again my position is not saying Okafor's without fault but I favor the position that the team has a bigger fault on D and it's more constructive to just look forward and not bringing up all issues of a rookie's deficiency playing with a horrible team that encountered some off court issues specially when we're just around a month from the new season.

[Sixerscan]

Glad one of our backup centers has some things that he is good at.

[76ciology]

I hope we all can just leave last season behind and just look forward to next season. We can all root for the same team.

[LloydFree]

Agree with cutting with your losses early.

The difference is some here, like me, thinks it's too early to cut your loss with a talented player with physical tools that did well or atleast wasn't bad on individual standpoint (individual scoring/defense/rim protection) like Jah after just 50+ games of playing with a horrible team. Like BC said, if we are offered with something good then we'll do the deal but we won't be on a losing end of a deal just to clear a problem and be presented on a new one (deduction in total assets/talent).

We need to chill on making final/close decisions and favor rooting for them to succeed until a larger and more credible size of data tells us that X player is a lost cause in terms of player development or fit.

By what measure did Okafor play well?

Per game rank among all NBA Centers:

FG% : 29th
Rebs: 28th
Blks: 22nd
Ast: 26th
Stls: 41st
FT%: 27th

Advanced Stats:

Oh never mind... because advanced stats, when applied to Okafor, are nothing but voodoo, that don't take in account that he was "only 19" and played with "historically bad teammates."

Leaving out points per game when pointing basic stats and not bolding the specific individual stats I mentioned in my original post tells your agenda. But it's understandable given u want to prove your point and again my position is not saying Okafor's without fault but I favor the position that the team has a bigger fault on D and it's more constructive to just look forward and not bringing up all issues of a rookie's deficiency playing with a horrible team that encountered some off court issues specially when we're just around a month from the new season.

Interesting choice of words. You have a "position" while I have an "agenda". It seems to me that you may have an agenda that you are trying too hard to push. These random, short sample, close to meaningless stats you keep posting... Shots challenged? Are you for real? Take that nonsense to the General board.

[Ericb5]

No one wants to be a backup player....BUT I could see a guy with Jah's skillset actually work well as an off the bench quick offense guy. Jah would often start games with a quick 10 easy points (before our guard went stupid and he got tired)....that is a useful trait for a 6th man type guy...especially against backup bigs and the like. However, Jah probably wouldn't love that role longterm soooo its a moot point but yeah. A similar guy like Enes Kanter flourished in a similar role in OKC (of course he probably starts now that Ibaka is gone..and also whined to get trade from Utah for wanting a starting role...sooooo).

As it stands (and with NO improvements, which hopefully isn't the case), I think Jah's offense only game is in fact exactly what you'd like out a bench guy actually.

again he (and his dad lol) won't stand for that so it is a moot point....however Jah is here for 3 years whether he likes it or not...and Embiid still can't be trusted.

Well let me revise what I said. He may not start, but he would have to back up the 4 and 5. He can't just back up one position is what I meant. He needs to play 30 mpg at least.

So if he can only play the 5 then he has no future here. Hey, that may be the case in the end, but I want them to make a concerted effort to play him at the 4 this year and see what happens. Unless we are stunting Simmons by making him defend the 3 too much that is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why does Okafor have to play 30 minutes? He should be used like Kanter. Maybe some nights he plays 30 minutes but other nights he plays 15-20. He will come off the bench and I think he could be effective doing that. I would be lying if I said I don't wonder how he will play with Simmons and see if he gets easier looks though. He just doesn't warrant starting at this point though. If he improves and becomes an effective player and maybe works well with Simmons then maybe he could start but I doubt it. If Embiid is healthy he's not starting.

Because he is better than Kanter. I don't only mean just for this year. I mean in his career he will need to play 30+ minutes because he is that good.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Andrew McCeltic]

When people say Okafor is bad on D, it's not because he's bad 1 on 1, or bad when he's around the rim. Part of it is whether he can be at the rim in time to contest shots, but the rest is team defense - if he's slow to react and rotate, and bad at guarding the pick and roll, he's the weak link in the defense and teams will exploit it. Cousins had the same problem in Sacramento and has gotten a little bit better. But teams would just abuse the Kings' defense.

Greg Monroe still struggles at 25. Brook Lopez is ok in awareness, but slow on his feet. Marc Gasol became great by working on positioning. Okafor could become decent. He's not that slow laterally, he's also lazy and impulsive.

But for him to have star status, he can't be bad at defense and rebounding, he has to be as good at one as he is at scoring. His floor is still Brook Lopez-ish, but with a different offensive style. No question he gets there, questions are about whether he can get better. He's never been asked to do anything but score..

Avery Bradley has gradually improved his ballhandling in a way I didn't think was possible, but he was a mature and hardworking kid. It's possible Okafor could improve at rebounding the same way. But usually it's only non-broken shots that can improve with repetition, and offensive and defensive awareness that improve with experience.

[76ciology]

When people say Okafor is bad on D, it's not because he's bad 1 on 1, or bad when he's around the rim. Part of it is whether he can be at the rim in time to contest shots, but the rest is team defense - if he's slow to react and rotate, and bad at guarding the pick and roll, he's the weak link in the defense and teams will exploit it. Cousins had the same problem in Sacramento and has gotten a little bit better. But teams would just abuse the Kings' defense.

Greg Monroe still struggles at 25. Brook Lopez is ok in awareness, but slow on his feet. Marc Gasol became great by working on positioning. Okafor could become decent. He's not that slow laterally, he's also lazy and impulsive.

But for him to have star status, he can't be bad at defense and rebounding, he has to be as good at one as he is at scoring. His floor is still Brook Lopez-ish, but with a different offensive style. No question he gets there, questions are about whether he can get better. He's never been asked to do anything but score..

Avery Bradley has gradually improved his ballhandling in a way I didn't think was possible, but he was a mature and hardworking kid. It's possible Okafor could improve at rebounding the same way. But usually it's only non-broken shots that can improve with repetition, and offensive and defensive awareness that improve with experience.

Problem for Jah IMO is he's a horrible rebounder that amplifies his inability to anchor the D and be an elite shot blocker/rim protector like Noel or Grant.

Only RoCo and our bigs are capable in defending individually. Our team doesn't have Turner, Smart, Bradley or Crowder playing heavy minutes at the perimeter on defense that doesn't require sullinger and olynyk (plus defenders/DRPM) of the herculean task to provide help defense left and right.

Ish, Nick, TJ and Canaan are all undersized defenders that gets bulldozed at will by their opponents. Hollis is a bad individual defender and is one of the worst defensive wings as per DRPM. They have horrible defensive numbers and played heavy minutes.

For Jah, he struggled in Nov-Dec., but finally seems to get it by January with the arrival of Ish. The team was able to get 4 wins that month. And Jah actually had almost the same on court DRTG and better NetRtg than Nerlens by January. Problem lies in Feb., when Noel/Jah got confused on the cross match on transition defense.

Avery Bradley is known to be a good defensive player but he is -1.2++ DRPM and Celts plays worst on D when he's on the floor. Could his defensive numbers be skewed based on who he plays with (I'd guess IT) similar to Okafor's case?

[Andrew McCeltic]

I'm not an analytics expert, I assume people who use them to write about Okafor know how to factor out variables. With Bradley, my guess is it's partly that he guards the other team's best scorer quite a bit, so if you're only minus 1.2 against Lillard or Curry, you've done a great job.

I've looked at Okafor's stats and haven't figured it out. It's a small sample size of a rookie year for a young rookie on a team that was trying to lose and had the defensive problems you just mentioned. It seems like his analytics are consistent with the eye test, although I know he and Noel improved in shooting percentages tremendously once Ish came in. It's possible there's a cumulative effect on D, too, where a lock-down defensive guard makes life easier for the bigs behind him, gives them an extra second to react, and that the same way a good center can clean up perimeter mistakes, a mediocre defensive center can be punished for them- more "shots on goal."

I really don't know, & there's a small sample size for analytics in general. It seems unlikely a player as hyped as Okafor is as big a disappointment as everyone now thinks, but it's pros and scouts who think it, not just fans. I also saw with David Lee in Boston how someone can know how to score a ton but be a huge defensive liability in team schemes.

I'd definitely bring him to Boston at the right price, but if there were really good arguments for why his defense is a product of circumstance, I think someone would have made them by now. He's a bad young defender on a bad team.

I guess one analogy would be how Garnett changed Boston's defense, he made other players better with his vocal communication, focus, and crisp rotations. So teammates do matter, for raising individual defensive stats- the issue is Jah will never be the teammate who makes the defense better, and that's what everyone wants out of centers now because they're the linchpin or hub of the defense.

[Sixerscan]

Okafor is really bad at defense.

Now, where is Nerlens?

[76thBearCub]

Not directing this at anyone in particular but we all need to accept that Okafor can not play the 4 spot. Ever.

[spikeslovechild]

Not directing this at anyone in particular but we all need to accept that Okafor can not play the 4 spot. Ever.

Nope I need more data. His defense was bad in general last season. PF seems like a position assuming he can extend his range where he would be best suited longterm.

As far Brown goes orginally I was quite angry at the sentiment that Simmons had to play the 4. But I'm fine with it now. I don't think brown will have much of a choice.

A lineup with Simmons at the 4 won't be able to score. Okafor is going to feast coming off the bench. Saric is going to play very little minutes and struggle at the 3 eventually Brown is going to come to the same realization that Okafor needs to play the 4 and Simmons the 3 and see how it works. Otherwise everything else falls apart.

I do think if it proves to be true Simmons can't play the 3 and Okafor the 4 eventually both Noel and Okafor need to go. I say eventually because we still have three years on his deal but it just isn't going to work otherwise. Okafor is too good to come off the bench.

[Mik317]

its not like we are contending next year...or the next anyway.

might as well try strange **** out while you can

[phifans]

Well as long as Embiid and Simmons pan out as expected I'm indifference about others. Just little tired about all these endless argument while no one can actually persuade others. Just trade Okafor and lets see how he develop in different scenery and we'll know who wins the bet eventually.

[Ericb5]

Not directing this at anyone in particular but we all need to accept that Okafor can not play the 4 spot. Ever.

I don't understand this thinking. He hasn't even tried it next to a capable offensive center. The last thing we need is close mindedness.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ericb5]

Well as long as Embiid and Simmons pan out as expected I'm indifference about others. Just little tired about all these endless argument while no one can actually persuade others. Just trade Okafor and lets see how he develop in different scenery and we'll know who wins the bet eventually.

The universal truth is that if Embiid and Simmons pan out then the rest of the current roster is irrelevant. Theoretically, three years from now the only two players remaining from this team could be Embiid and Simmons. I don't think that that would be the case, but you could completely shuffle the deck outside of those two guys.

They are the core. If they pan out then we start putting a very heavy emphasis on "fit" for all other decisions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rzzzzz]

"There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?" RFK/Shaw

[LloydFree]

Seems to me we have some guys here that are a lot more invested in Jahlil Okafor's career (or being proved right in their high evaluation of him) than the success of the 76ers.

[tsmith]

Seems to me we have some guys here that are a lot more invested in Jahlil Okafor's career (or being proved right in their high evaluation of him) than the success of the 76ers.

Honestly you seem more invested in Okafor failing then anything else...

[LloydFree]

Seems to me we have some guys here that are a lot more invested in Jahlil Okafor's career (or being proved right in their high evaluation of him) than the success of the 76ers.

Honestly you seem more invested in Okafor failing then anything else...

I never root for any player to fail. I want Okafor to succeed and I'm confident he'll have a good career. On the right team he'll have a Brook Lopez type career. That's a success. I just don't want that kind of Center on my team, because Centers like that make it near impossible to build a contender. How is that, in any way, rooting for his failure?