Official 2020-21 Season Thread #1: To Beard or not To Beard?

[HardenToSixers]

That is simply not an accurate assessment.

Simmons was only put on the table in the end because Morey decided to put him there. Morey was obviously playing the long game waiting for Harden's value to drop more. Morey also said to the press they were absolutely not trading Ben Simmons, and then turned around and put Ben on the table.

How was fl311 wrong about it again? The minute Ben was put on the table, agents were being notified that a deal was likely...which is exactly what he said would happen.

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if you want to believe that we could have completed Simmons for Harden back in November/December but "Morey was waiting for Harden's value to go down," but then we weren't able to complete Harden for Simmons++ in January then I'm not really sure what to tell you.

I don't really particularly care either way, you're welcome to ask his opinion. I just personally don't think he has a finger on the pulse since Morey was hired. I'm happy to be proven wrong.

I believe Morey wanted to see what the starters looked like together, what Ben looked like in Doc's system, what the market for Harden would shape up to be. And I believe he would have waited until the deadline before putting Ben on the table, if Houston would have allowed it to drag out that long.

I firmly believe Morey was waiting to try to get it done without including Ben, until his hand was forced by Houston telling them the deal was getting done one way or another and to put the best final offer on the table. Which at that time, Morey said let's put Ben in it and get it done. And Houston said no thanks.

I believe fl311 has legit sources and is plugged in.

I don't think Morey would start negotiating with his best chip in the deal to begin with. You save that for last and add it in only when you feel you can't win without it. That's smart. Morey is smart. I believe in smart.

If you chose to believe otherwise, I can't help you and I think we are done here.

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what you just described in this hypothetical scenario was Morey botching the situation. not being smart.

[51X3RF4N]

if you want to believe that we could have completed Simmons for Harden back in November/December but "Morey was waiting for Harden's value to go down," but then we weren't able to complete Harden for Simmons++ in January then I'm not really sure what to tell you.

I don't really particularly care either way, you're welcome to ask his opinion. I just personally don't think he has a finger on the pulse since Morey was hired. I'm happy to be proven wrong.

I believe Morey wanted to see what the starters looked like together, what Ben looked like in Doc's system, what the market for Harden would shape up to be. And I believe he would have waited until the deadline before putting Ben on the table, if Houston would have allowed it to drag out that long.

I firmly believe Morey was waiting to try to get it done without including Ben, until his hand was forced by Houston telling them the deal was getting done one way or another and to put the best final offer on the table. Which at that time, Morey said let's put Ben in it and get it done. And Houston said no thanks.

I believe fl311 has legit sources and is plugged in.

I don't think Morey would start negotiating with his best chip in the deal to begin with. You save that for last and add it in only when you feel you can't win without it. That's smart. Morey is smart. I believe in smart.

If you chose to believe otherwise, I can't help you and I think we are done here.

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what you just described in this hypothetical scenario was Morey botching the situation. not being smart.

Only if your main goal is to give up Ben, Maxey, Thybulle and 3 1sts for Harden is it a botched situation. Lol foh

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[51X3RF4N]

if you want to believe that we could have completed Simmons for Harden back in November/December but "Morey was waiting for Harden's value to go down," but then we weren't able to complete Harden for Simmons++ in January then I'm not really sure what to tell you.

I don't really particularly care either way, you're welcome to ask his opinion. I just personally don't think he has a finger on the pulse since Morey was hired. I'm happy to be proven wrong.

I believe Morey wanted to see what the starters looked like together, what Ben looked like in Doc's system, what the market for Harden would shape up to be. And I believe he would have waited until the deadline before putting Ben on the table, if Houston would have allowed it to drag out that long.

I firmly believe Morey was waiting to try to get it done without including Ben, until his hand was forced by Houston telling them the deal was getting done one way or another and to put the best final offer on the table. Which at that time, Morey said let's put Ben in it and get it done. And Houston said no thanks.

I believe fl311 has legit sources and is plugged in.

I don't think Morey would start negotiating with his best chip in the deal to begin with. You save that for last and add it in only when you feel you can't win without it. That's smart. Morey is smart. I believe in smart.

If you chose to believe otherwise, I can't help you and I think we are done here.

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what you just described in this hypothetical scenario was Morey botching the situation. not being smart.

Outside of the fact that Houston was not going to trade Harden to the Sixers due to ownership, Morey waiting things out and then at the end driving up the price the Nets had to pay was indeed smart.

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[HardenToSixers]

I believe Morey wanted to see what the starters looked like together, what Ben looked like in Doc's system, what the market for Harden would shape up to be. And I believe he would have waited until the deadline before putting Ben on the table, if Houston would have allowed it to drag out that long.

I firmly believe Morey was waiting to try to get it done without including Ben, until his hand was forced by Houston telling them the deal was getting done one way or another and to put the best final offer on the table. Which at that time, Morey said let's put Ben in it and get it done. And Houston said no thanks.

I believe fl311 has legit sources and is plugged in.

I don't think Morey would start negotiating with his best chip in the deal to begin with. You save that for last and add it in only when you feel you can't win without it. That's smart. Morey is smart. I believe in smart.

If you chose to believe otherwise, I can't help you and I think we are done here.

Sent from my SM-G986U using RealGM mobile app

what you just described in this hypothetical scenario was Morey botching the situation. not being smart.

Outside of the fact that Houston was not going to trade Harden to the Sixers due to ownership, Morey waiting things out and then at the end driving up the price the Nets had to pay was indeed smart.

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okay. glad to hear that we’re on the same page that the notion that for months the “deal is done if Simmons is included” was a false pretense, as you just admitted.

Pleasure doing business with you.

[HardenToSixers]

I believe Morey wanted to see what the starters looked like together, what Ben looked like in Doc's system, what the market for Harden would shape up to be. And I believe he would have waited until the deadline before putting Ben on the table, if Houston would have allowed it to drag out that long.

I firmly believe Morey was waiting to try to get it done without including Ben, until his hand was forced by Houston telling them the deal was getting done one way or another and to put the best final offer on the table. Which at that time, Morey said let's put Ben in it and get it done. And Houston said no thanks.

I believe fl311 has legit sources and is plugged in.

I don't think Morey would start negotiating with his best chip in the deal to begin with. You save that for last and add it in only when you feel you can't win without it. That's smart. Morey is smart. I believe in smart.

If you chose to believe otherwise, I can't help you and I think we are done here.

Sent from my SM-G986U using RealGM mobile app

what you just described in this hypothetical scenario was Morey botching the situation. not being smart.

Only if your main goal is to give up Ben, Maxey, Thybulle and 3 1sts for Harden is it a botched situation. Lol foh

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thanks for admitting that including Simmons straight up wasn’t going to get the deal done from the beginning despite what FL said, like I’ve been saying all along.

Pleasure doing business with you.

[51X3RF4N]

what you just described in this hypothetical scenario was Morey botching the situation. not being smart.

Only if your main goal is to give up Ben, Maxey, Thybulle and 3 1sts for Harden is it a botched situation. Lol foh

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thanks for admitting that including Simmons straight up wasn’t going to get the deal done from the beginning despite what FL said, like I’ve been saying all along.

Pleasure doing business with you.

Lol you are twisting words and frankly trolling. Go away. Is fl311 supposed to know Houston's owner was going to shut it down?

He told us what he knew. Ben wasn't on the table, until he was. And the minute he was, a deal was expected to be finalized.

Stop trolling.

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[Skates]

I'm starting to think that exploring a Lonzo Ball/JJ Redick deal is at least worth looking into, depending on price. Lonzo is hitting the three at a decent rate and volume, is a multi-positional defender and can play on the ball with Simmons on the first team and Shake off the bench if you stagger his minutes correctly. JJ looks cooked so you are hoping for a burst after reuniting with the Sixers. Green Scott and someone from the Ferguson/Bradley/Poirer group gives you matching salary, so it depends on the price they are asking. Re-signing Lonzo as a high end glue guy who helps on both ends might be a long term answer for the team. We would still need a stretch big like Bjelica, but as weak as our bench is without Shake, and even with him, one of our major focuses has to be upgrading Green's expiring contract with some athleticism, defense and shooting.

George Hill and Delon Wright as rumored are also nice answers to the bench issues and could help close out games. Losing three of four on the a tough road trip showed that we truly have a three star lineup and now it is a matter of fitting in the pieces to support them, not constantly looking to trade one of those three who are all young/prime age and highly productive two way players.

[Sportfan73]

I'm starting to think that exploring a Lonzo Ball/JJ Redick deal is at least worth looking into, depending on price. Lonzo is hitting the three at a decent rate and volume, is a multi-positional defender and can play on the ball with Simmons on the first team and Shake off the bench if you stagger his minutes correctly. JJ looks cooked so you are hoping for a burst after reuniting with the Sixers. Green Scott and someone from the Ferguson/Bradley/Poirer group gives you matching salary, so it depends on the price they are asking. Re-signing Lonzo as a high end glue guy who helps on both ends might be a long term answer for the team. We would still need a stretch big like Bjelica, but as weak as our bench is without Shake, and even with him, one of our major focuses has to be upgrading Green's expiring contract with some athleticism, defense and shooting.

George Hill and Delon Wright as rumored are also nice answers to the bench issues and could help close out games. Losing three of four on the a tough road trip showed that we truly have a three star lineup and now it is a matter of fitting in the pieces to support them, not constantly looking to trade one of those three who are all young/prime age and highly productive two way players.

Kinda really love the idea of getting both of them. Lonzo and Ben could be an absolute terror defensively even if not playing together. Imagine 48 minutes of one of those two guarding the best guard on the other team

[stormi]

Lonzo would be a player I'd be really keen on acquiring and investing long term into. He's really turned himself into one of the consummate complimentary players in the league. He's 23 years old, tall and quick and would give us another real guard defender. Thybulle is pretty much our only traditional one, Shake can be sometimes. Danny is too slow, Ben is too hunkering to genuinely defend small shifty pg's although with his physical tools and length he still does a pretty good job. He's really turned his form & shot profile around, has a quick release and over the past two years has averaged ~7 3's per game and knocks them down at about 38%. And he's a smart ballhandler that gives you 6 assists per night. And i still think he has more to unlock with his own shot creation.

I'm not sure we can afford him, and David Griffin would likely want some premium assets for him. I'd give that hypothetical Lowry package for Lonzo instead as another piece to invest in going forward.

Delon Wright is the more attainable target, has 2 years on his deal and shouldn't cost much at all. Either one would be a solid acquisition for a team like us that just need more talent throughout the lineup. Our lack of depth and versatility really shine through when a player or two can't suit up.

[DCasey91]

Lonzo would be a player I'd be really keen on acquiring and investing long term into. He's really turned himself into one of the consummate complimentary players in the league. He's 23 years old, tall and quick and would give us another real guard defender. Thybulle is pretty much our only traditional one, Shake can be sometimes. Danny is too slow, Ben is too hunkering to genuinely defend small shifty pg's although with his physical tools and length he still does a pretty good job. He's really turned his form & shot profile around, has a quick release and over the past two years has averaged ~7 3's per game and knocks them down at about 38%. And he's a smart ballhandler that gives you 6 assists per night. And i still think he has more to unlock with his own shot creation.

I'm not sure we can afford him, and David Griffin would likely want some premium assets for him. I'd give that hypothetical Lowry package for Lonzo instead as another piece to invest in longterm.

Delon Wright is the more attainable target, has 2 years on his deal and shouldn't cost much at all. Either one would be a solid acquisition for a team like us that just need more talent throughout the lineup. Our lack of depth and versatility really shine through when a player or two can't suit up.

I’m much higher on Ball then Wright (his 3% splits aren’t crash hot) Monte Morris too would fit super nicely.
I just want players that amplify both Embiid/Simmons without having so much dependency on both.

If that’s the real Ben (top ten player in the comp) unleashing him for as much scoring opportunities when Embiid rests in a game should be the go to. Small Ball and shooters. And let him go nuts.

The thing with players (4-12) on our team including Harris is they all are very dependent (aren’t as well rounded on the ball) with both Embiid/Simmons. We need at least two players that amplify the duo. They don’t have to be all conquering too if Ben makes the jump.

Lonzo fits right in that wheelhouse. Same with Hill/Dragic/Lowry/Morris love all of their games suits the duo so well. Satoransky too def wouldn’t mind any of them at all lol

Always thought he would end being an elite roleplayer for some championship team (Mavs Kidd) or something like that.

Embiid is Dirk , Lonzo is Kidd, and Ben is like super duper Marion.

[76ciology]

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[Kobblehead]

Lonzo is basically Danny Green, with passing. Really good defender that can space the floor, but he's not providing anything by way of putting the ball on the floor and creating offense off the dribble. I'm not sure it's wise to invest assets in guys that can't be a solution to what we really need.

I like Lonzo, though. He'd be infinitely better for us that Seth Curry, for instance.

[DCasey91]

Ben’s stat line for the last 15 games last year before injury.

22/10/8 with 2.1 steals and elite defense and without an ideal setup though he was the focal point. (Both haven’t had ideal setups but that’s not their fault).

Some unknown reason he has hit really good free throw %’s when he shoots them more. Must be a rhythm thing. Also when he takes more shots too, his production goes through the roof from a typical Ben game to a top ten player like that quickly. Ben we are all happy for you to take 15+ shots per game be our guest lol.

People should know Ben was def not 100% at the start of the year. That production isn’t far off his College days. All I’m saying is when and if Ben gets to that next level in due time (22/8/8/2/1) our margin for error becomes a lot greater. Scary part is there’s still a huge unknown to explore with him.

Both of them are monsters I think the second in command realizes how good he can be (and everyone knows what he’s capable of). You’re going to see games like this again. It’s all in between the ears always has been with him.

Penny & Shaq the new Ben & Embiid.

I like Lonzo too.

Hopefully we can solve our outside stud threat then we’re going to be huge problem for everyone. Then after that focus on multifaceted role players. That’s when Lonzo would be high priority imo.

[51X3RF4N]

Lonzo is basically Danny Green, with passing. Really good defender that can space the floor, but he's not providing anything by way of putting the ball on the floor and creating offense off the dribble. I'm not sure it's wise to invest assets in guys that can't be a solution to what we really need.

I like Lonzo, though. He'd be infinitely better for us that Seth Curry, for instance.

One thing to note here.

Lonzo is averaging 2.3 pull up 3pt attempts per game. And a total of 4 pull up FGA per game.

Compare that to our team.

He's a full attempt per game higher than our highest Seth Curry who is shooting 1.3 pull up 3pa per game. Tobias is at a putrid 1 pull up 3pa per game. And kormaz has 1.2. Everyone else is under 1.

Lonzos 4 FGA off the pull up per game is tied for 3rd with Maxey behind Embiid and Tobias. Embiid at 5.7 and Tobias at 5.2.

So Tobias is taking more mid range pull up than he is 3pt pull ups.

And Lonzo is taking about half and half.

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[Kobblehead]

I don't think pulling up from three qualifies for creating off the dribble or creating your own offense. Those are fake unassisted buckets. Real shotcreators beat defenders off the dribble inside the arc and either slash to the bucket or generate mid-range shots in the teeth of the defense. Lonzo doesn't do any of that. He's not a shotcreator.

[Negrodamus]

I think Lonzo would be a huge addition to this team. My only concern is that we'd have two sub 70% FT shooters on the court at once, likely at the end of games. Also, I don't know what the asset expenditure would be to get him. Might be rich for my blood.

Otherwise, I have a billion times more confidence with Lonzo putting the ball on the ground than whatever Danny Green does. He's also an elite passer.

[Kobblehead]

Isn't that more because Danny is a complete non-creator as opposed to Lonzo showing any promise at the NCAA level or NBA level of being able to create off the dribble, though?

I think Lonzo is a significant upgrade on Seth, but ultimately, a relatively pointless one if we're neglecting the shotcreation element that matters most in the postseason.

[Negrodamus]

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He is exactly what I thought he'd be in the league: an absolute elite role player. His feel for the game is absurd. He and Ben would dominate the transition game and he is excellent at feeding the post. I could see him becoming a 10pt, 10+ apg player if he came here.

Another underrated part of his game is grabbing rebounds for a guard. He likely isn't showing it as much this year since he has a ton of size to compete with, but he's shown great instincts as a guard rebounder. That's something we obviously need when playing teams like the Trailblazers. Kanter singlehandedly killed us on the glass which kept possessions alive. That could have been mitigated with guards that crash the glass too.

[Negrodamus]

Isn't that more because Danny is a complete non-creator as opposed to Lonzo showing any promise at the NCAA level or NBA level of being able to create off the dribble, though?

I think Lonzo is a significant upgrade on Seth, but ultimately, a relatively pointless one if we're neglecting the shotcreation element that matters most in the postseason.

I don't think Lonzo is going to ever be an ISO creator in his career. That said, his overall role player ability makes Curry and Green expendable. His ability on the offensive end is infinitely better than Danny Green; like across the board objectively better. He also can run the PnR without us having to hold our breath. He's clearly a more versatile defender and deflection/turnover generator than Seth Curry.

Yes, we need a guy who can create half court offense, but I'm also not against adding one of the premiere role players in the league to boost the offensive output of Embiid, Ben, and Tobias.

[76ciology]

You can’t have Lonzo and Ben, unless one of them is OK with playing and getting paid as a role player.

While I dont think you’d go anywhere if you trade Ben or Tobi for Lonzo.