***Sixerfan1976 Official Thread - Update Page 28***

[sweetlou23]

Derek watched a bunch of film of Vucevic and concluded he will stink. I respect that and hope he will turn out to be wrong. And he'll be the first to admit that scouting is not an exact science and he has badly missed on a few calls in the past.

Its interesting that Derek gets a "bias pass" from you because he saw some film. His opinion is just as likely to be based on the fact that the sixers did not take who he wanted them to take as everyone else's opinion is. The fact that he saw some film that others did not see does not mean that his analysis of that film is not tainted by his own bias.

[SouthJersey]

I really respect Derek's opinion, but there are other scouts too. For example, here is what Collins had to say :


"I watched every offensive possession he had the whole year," Collins said. "I don't know how many there was, but I watched every time he caught the ball, and he presents a target. He catches it; you can cut off of him, he finds the open man; he passes well out of the double-team. He passed out lefthanded; he passed out righthanded; he turns and faces. If you step back, he can hit that shot. He has the ability to dribble and get a bump and still make that midrange shot. We think we're going to be better playing through the post this year, which is a plus."


Read more: http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/six ... z1QTgYRFMR

It's just a difference of opinion. Going back to that Speights draft, I wanted the Sixers to take Hibbert, but the same thing was said about him, he is too slow. But I personally feel with big men, that athleticism can be almost overlooked if they bring other intangibles, which Vucevic seems to have. I'm going with Coach Collins on this one.

[Kobblehead]

Not singling you out, SJ. But why are people talking about Roy Hibbert being some sort of success story that overcame draft concerns? He is not a dependable starting center and probably won't ever be one.

[Mik317]

I was about to jump in and say Hibbert made great strides and then i looked at his numbers...so yeah. Carry on.

I think it's merely the fact that there are like 3-4 good/great5 centers in in the whole league.

Howard, Healthy Bogut and...uhhh healthy Yao.

[Sixersftw]

Healthy bynum and healthy Ode..hahaha I tried, I tried couldn't say it without laughing. Healthy, Oden? how silly.

[SouthJersey]

Not singling you out, SJ. But why are people talking about Roy Hibbert being some sort of success story that overcame draft concerns? He is not a dependable starting center and probably won't ever be one.

It depends on your expectations I guess. Is Hibbert, if not a starter, is atleast a serviceable big man.

My point is that Centers for some reason slide because of one negative item on their scouting report. What did Brook Lopez fall to?

[corwin]

^ i just think Hou needs to throw in a fuzz more if they do Hill instead of Patterson... is the difference between the two a '12 2nd?

I could see that. Houston has pretty full roster right now.

[Sixersftw]

10th because he doesn't play defense or rebound? Brooke Lopez is infuriating.

[Kobblehead]

10th because he doesn't play defense or rebound? Brooke Lopez is infuriating.

This. Brook Lopez is another average to below average center that gets hype because of his numbers. Lopez played all 82 games in 09 and his team won a total of 12 games. If you're a legit 7 footer, regardless of who's around you, that doesn't happen.

[SouthJersey]

OK, thats good logic, but did you look at that draft? I think it's pretty clear he should have been a top 5 pick...

[Kobblehead]

No way he goes top 5 if that draft is redone.

Derrick Rose
Russell Westbrook
Kevin Love
Eric Gordon
Serge Ibaka

Lopez would be in the discussion to go 6 along with Danilo, Batum, Mayo and maybe DeAndre Jordan.

[dbodner]

The only real knock on him is that he has been inconsistent.

He's inconsistent because his effort level is inconsistent. He doesn't have enough talent to over come that.

Are you complaining about the 50th overall pick, & debating the value of drafting Allen there? If Allen was their guy, why potentially risk losing him by not taking him where they did?

My criticism isn't whether they should have risked losing him, my criticism is based on whether their evaluation of him is of someone of actual consequence.

How the hell did you know he was going to be undrafted? Did you confirm this with GMs yourself?

Actually, I was on the prudential center floor on draft night. I'm a scout with draftexpress. I'm credentialed with the Sixers and with the NBA. I go to the lottery, the combine, the draft, and private workouts. I was stationed 15 feet from the green room. I had heard from both agents and front office people that odds are he wasn't going to be drafted. So yes, I had a reasonable degree of certainty.

Much of his high regard came from teams seeing him in workouts- which amateur/internet scouts have no access to.

Guys at DX have seen him in private workouts. He looked good, but not good enough to override 3+ seasons of playing basketball. I generally disagree with the philosophy to allow 3 weeks of private workouts override what you saw on the basketball court. It's this kind of methodology that gets Tristan Thompson drafted #4 (Cavs raved about him because he played Derrick Williams to a stand still in a workout).

We followed the 'big board', whatever that is, last year, how did that work out? We would have all crucified the Sixers for taking Greg Monroe second, myself included, but right now it looks like the Pistons were the lucky ones to not move up last year.

If that ends up a mistake in 5 years, it's because of a mis-evaluation of talent, not by following the big board.

It is just to early to give up on a guy simply becasue ghe was not the player you wanted, or even the type of player you wanted.

It's too early to give up, but it's not too early to have an opinion. I'm not saying there's 0% chance Vucevic will not be a rotational player (in fact, I thinkt here's a decent chance he's a solid bench player), I just think it was a bad draft pick, and many players I would have taken ahead of him (primarily Singleton).

[Skates]

For all of the impatience for the team to amke a move, I am kind of glad they didn't. With at least a short lockout coming up, that gives chance for the team's sale to be completed. There is no guarantee that the new owners will be any better than Comcast/Spectacor, though they will clearly care more (not a high standard to beat).

The buyers of the team should be the ones to do what they think is best to mold the team into what their vision is going forward. The lockout is a bit of a blessing that way, since it prevents FA from proceeding while the sale is being worked out.

[tk76]

Derek watched a bunch of film of Vucevic and concluded he will stink. I respect that and hope he will turn out to be wrong. And he'll be the first to admit that scouting is not an exact science and he has badly missed on a few calls in the past.

Its interesting that Derek gets a "bias pass" from you because he saw some film. His opinion is just as likely to be based on the fact that the sixers did not take who he wanted them to take as everyone else's opinion is. The fact that he saw some film that others did not see does mean that his analysis of that film is not tainted by his own bias.

Not sure I was giving him a pass. I was simply saying he could be completely wrong while acknowledging he has watched much more film of Vucevic than the rest of us. Derek has bias just like the rest of us, but its just a more informed bias than most of us.

[dbodner]

ts interesting that Derek gets a "bias pass" from you because he saw some film. His opinion is just as likely to be based on the fact that the sixers did not take who he wanted them to take as everyone else's opinion is.

Perhaps I didn't want the Sixers to draft him because I came to the conclusion he wasn't worth the draft pick.

I think sometimes people need to look up the word bias. A bias isn't a dislike of someone. A bias is something that prevents unprejudiced consideration. If I was a UCLA alum, someone could claim I was biased against USC players and couldn't fairly evaluate them. If I evaluated Vucevic without an inclination to dislike him, and came to the conclusion that he wasn't going to be a very good draft pick, and didn't want the Sixers to pick him because of that conclusion, that's not being biased against him. That's having an opinion.

[tk76]

Agree. But I would not be surprised if all of us were a bit biased against non-explosive white centers. particularly after being subjected to as season of Hawes at C. I also think we all might be biased a bit against guys that don't fit what we think the Sixers need (an athletic big.) Meaning we go beyond simply not wanting the player for the Sixers to thinking the player is less likely to be a success overall.

Like I said, I think you are less susceptible to this because you do a ton of scouting and are likley less Sixers focused in your approach.

[dbodner]

I don't think that's necessarily a bias. If you observe characteristics that make centers successful (and, characteristics that, when lacked, make them less successful), that's evaluation, not a bias

(with the exception of white. The white's irrelevant. The same athletic concerns were raised of Greg Monroe last year. ).

That's not to say non-athletic centers CAN'T contribute, but it's a negative in his column, and it's a hard negative to overcome.

[sweetlou23]

ts interesting that Derek gets a "bias pass" from you because he saw some film. His opinion is just as likely to be based on the fact that the sixers did not take who he wanted them to take as everyone else's opinion is.

Perhaps I didn't want the Sixers to draft him because I came to the conclusion he wasn't worth the draft pick.

I think sometimes people need to look up the word bias. A bias isn't a dislike of someone. A bias is something that prevents unprejudiced consideration. If I was a UCLA alum, someone could claim I was biased against USC players and couldn't fairly evaluate them. If I evaluated Vucevic without an inclination to dislike him, and came to the conclusion that he wasn't going to be a very good draft pick, and didn't want the Sixers to pick him because of that conclusion, that's not being biased against him. That's having an opinion.

There is very little about your overall analysis on this site and others that would lead me to believe that you are less likely to be biased than anyone else who posts here.

I have no idea whether or not you had an inclination to like or dislike Big V before you watched film of him, I am simply stating that I am unwilling to accept that assumption that your opinion is based on objective analysis because you saw a bunch of film others did not see. Bias can be based on any number of things including race, gender, age, hair length, weight etc. It can also be based on a team preferring a player over the one you want them to pick. A person is often unaware or in denial of their own biases. Just out of curiosity, who did you want the sixers to take at sixteen anyway?

[tk76]

Yeah, being athletic is a shortcoming. No bias to that. But people can also have a bias against non-athletes because they are less exciting and likely have lower ceilings.

It's like comparing power hitters to contact hitters. A lot of times people are fans of the home run hitter beyond their stats or impact on the game. People get less excited about a guy who gets less impressive hits.

[Kobblehead]

Yeah, being athletic is a shortcoming. No bias to that. But people can also have a bias against non-athletes because they are less exciting and likely have lower ceilings.

It's like comparing power hitters to contact hitters. A lot of times people are fans of the home run hitter beyond their stats or impact on the game. People get less excited about a guy who gets less impressive hits.

Disagree. I'd take a guy like Kendrick Perkins as my starting center any day of the week. He's neither athletic nor exciting but he embodies the physicality and toughness to have an impact. That's what I'm looking for from a center.