Fantasy trade thread: new trade threads merged to here

[tk76]

Point-God, "problem" players typically do fine if they are winning. Think Rodman of the Bulls. But put those same guys on a 45 win team and they are a disaster (think Artest on the Pacers.)

Since the Sixers are not going to be a contender any time soon, Artest would be a disaster here. Bynum is a different story. He is not a head-case, he just is immature at times. Artest and Bynum are different in many ways.

[Point-God]

tk76, excuse me if I want to deal with data a little more up to date than 2004.

Dennis Rodman had 2 NBA championship rings before the Bulls and played on 55 and 62 win teams in San Antonio. If Rodman's total career is the foundation for this study, I'm even more fine with bringing JR Smith and Artest aboard.

[tk76]

I'm not sure how what you are saying disagrees with my point. Rodman was great to have on a contender. While he was disruptive when he played on non-great teams (to the point teams wanted him gone.) Same exact history with Artest. Same with Rasheed. Heck, same with AI if you look at it. He really only had legit "issues" when the team was no longer a contender.

So that is the same recurring theme in the 80's, 90's and the current decade. The team dynamic is not all that different from then to now. It just seems like it to some people because they were not around then. I mean, I could go back to Ty Cobb... and its the same story. Great player. Great to have on a winner. Will tear everything apart on a less talented team. Do you think people ages 20-35 where somehow that different back then? There have always been self absorbed players and guys with major off the field issues.

Again, I'm saying guys with "issues" are still valuable if you have a great team where they will be winning a lot. Its the losing that makes them a problem.

Unfortunately, I don't put the Sixers as a contending type team, so they are not the best fit for that type of player. And I could care less how a guy dresses or what they look like. I'm talking about legit issues (arrests and problems at clubs 3AM they day before a game, fights, drug issues, mental health issues.) And if a guy has cleaned up his life like Chris Anderson or Vick then I have no problem adding them to any team. As for Artest and J.R., I have no idea where they are right now with their past problems- so I can't give my opinion on them one way or the other. But if the problems are still there, then they are unlikely to be a positive on anything short of a contender.

[Point-God]

Rasheed, Artest and Rodman are NBA champions who have played on multiple playoff teams. You really need a better example. Iverson is a good one, but JR Smith and Artest aren't influential super stars. Sure Rodman's teams didn't win NBA championships every year, he only has 5 rings, what more do you want? There are 7 NBA titles amongst the 3 players you listed above and 7 losing seasons. I didn't count Rodman's final NBA year in Dallas when he was 38 and played in 12 games. The players traded to acquire Artest, Bynum and sign JR Smith as a free agent have been a part of 8 losing seasons alone and they are much younger players (They have zero NBA championships). Bynum and Artest will be bringing 3 NBA championship rings to the team and JR Smith has a Conference Finals under his belt.

I have a bigger aversion to keeping proven losers on the Sixers than I have to acquiring proven winners who have done some crazy things.

[tk76]

Point-God, I'm still not sure how what you are saying runs contrary to what I'm saying.

I'm saying troubled players are still great to have if you are a contender. But they are disruptive on non-contenders because they blow up once the teams start losing some games. How is what you are saying dispute this?

Again, Rodman and Artest had huge issues on non-contenders to where they were forced to leave the team. But they where great to have on a contender, since when the team is winning they tend not to cause problems. That is all I'm saying.

Or do you think Artest and Rodman did not make major problems for their teams when they were on non-contenders?

The Sixers are not contenders. They won't be if they add Rodman or JR Smith. So they are not the right player for this team... unless they can somehow upgrade the rest of the talent to where they are contenders. If they had a great team I'd be all for adding J.R. Smith to the mix as a scorer.

As for Bynum, I don't see him as a troubled player. Just a guy who gives a bad foul now and again and is sort of whiny.

[Point-God]

So Artest and Rodman weren't good losers. When did that become a virtue? Iguodala and Lou Williams are clearly more prolific losers than Artest and Rodman.

Bynum
Brand
Artest
Meeks
Jrue

Thad
JR Smith

That's not a losing team in the East.

[tk76]

Losing made M.J. fight harder to win and drive his teammates to improve their play.

Losing made Ron Artest fight harder with his teammates, the opponent, fans and break T.V.'s.

Not all people handle adversity well

[Sixerlover]

So Artest and Rodman weren't good losers. When did that become a virtue? Iguodala and Lou Williams are clearly more prolific losers than Artest and Rodman.

Bynum
Brand
Artest
Meeks
Jrue

Thad
JR Smith

That's not a losing team in the East.

LOL He's not saying that!

He's saying that players like Rodman, Artest, Sheed, Iverson etc aren't "team chemistry" issues when the team they are playing for is a contender. Because obviously winning solves everything.

The Sixers wouldn't be a contender next year, we'd be a middle of the pack Eastern conference playoff team. Those type of players typically gain their "chemistry" problems on teams like ours. The ones that aren't contending for anything. It's a valid point.


EDIT - And while that isn't a losing team, it still isn't better than Miami, Chicago, Boston. Book Bynum for 40-45 missed games too.

[Point-God]

Losing made Ron Artest fight harder with his teammates, the opponent, fans and break T.V.'s.

I'm fine with that, being that he does have a championship ring. All of that sits better with me than Lou Williams losing yet having time to make rap videos and host radio shows.

[tk76]

If Bynum was healthy then its a really good team. Possibly contending level. With Bynum hurt they are in definitely a second level team, probably a bit behind Atl.

That's why I wanted to leave Bynum out of the discussion. As I said, if the team was a contender then I'd happily add a troubled but talented player like J.R. But Artest is sort of past his sell by date, so I'd only take him on if he was forced on them in a Bynum trade.

[Point-God]

But Artest is sort of past his sell by date, so I'd only take him on if he was forced on them in a Bynum trade.

That's the idea behind it. Bynum and JR Smith are the only two that I stand behind as clear desired improvements. I certainly wouldn't like a trade for Artest alone. That wouldn't be for his character, but because he looks old out on the floor lately.

[Point-God]

tk76, so you don't want to stand behind your Lou Williams comment that he would have won a ring if he were a Laker "these last few years?"

[tk76]

Sure, I just did not want to get back into a disagreement.

Mark Madsen has a lot of rings...


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1ciMXvSE8U[/youtube]

[Point-God]

Artest, Rasheed, Bynum, and Rodman were a part of NBA championship teams as starters, where are you going with Mark Madsen? Come on tk76, don't cause this discourse to degenerate.

[tk76]

Yeah, I think Lou could be a good 6th man for the Lakers. he's one of the best 6th men in the league. But I don't see him as a starter on the Lakers(or any team.)

[Ruhiel]

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=3os7s84

Andrew Bogut for Turner + Brackins (Speights if needed) +Songalia (contract).

Meeks-Holiday-Iguodala/Brand/Bogut

Lou Williams+Antonio Daniels + (pick?) Steve Nash
:::
Final Product:

[Nash+Iguodala+Young+Brand+Bogut]
FA/Bench Suggestions: Al Thornton ($2-3.5 mil) + Diogu + more bigs to avoid the rebounding debacle.
Draft suggestion; Donatas Motiejunas - 6th man, give him the role and hopefully he isn't a problem child. Travis Leslie backup? idk

+ Nash will do his best to tutor Holiday/Meeks on FGA vs making the assist.
- Nash's minutes and thus his opportunity for impact is dwindling.
+ Nash expires in time for Deron Williams + Chris Paul.
+ Nash helps Young and Iguodala get high percentage looks.
+ 76ers become a contender and one of the best 2-way teams in the league. Options to play small and fast when needed or regular and disciplined/staunchy defense.
+ 7 seconds or less= ticket sales
:::::::::::

[BringBackKorver]

No reason for Phoenix to do that, even with a pick.

[Sixerlover]

No way Phoenix gets shafted like that.

[Ruhiel]

Nash is similar to Duncan he can be exposed with major minutes. His impact is dwindling.
PHI + Bogut + Nash gives him a place where he can split minutes and contend. PHX would be doing him a favor and admitting rebuild mode.

Nash + Williams + Meeks would be an elite guard rotation especially factoring in Nash's pick and roll expertise rubbing off on the guards and even the forwards.
:::
Holiday to the WestConfernce and Daniels works $-wise in the trade machine. Nash only played 30mpg this year anyway. PHX needs to rebuild sooner or later and is shafting themselves, lottery 2 str8 years. They are in denial.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachi ... Id=3cq7x5h
Best case for PHX Holiday becomes a Joe Johnson type, a good combo guard. Don't think he'll be consistent enough at drawing FTA to take over a game but its better than nothing for PHX who will lose everything when Nash leaves in FA.

[BringBackKorver]

Wouldn't give up Holiday for a year of Nash at this point.