Hinkie in Hindsight?

[NYSixersFan]

I really don't want to talk about Hinkie anymore, but threads like this force me to do so

The Hinkie supporters are so narrow minded....They refuse to admit that there is more to being a GM then just tanking...and that he failed miserably in the other areas...

We're not narrow minded, we're right-minded. Hinkie's only serious failures were that he occasionally missed the big picture with his low-ranked picks (the Golden State swap is an example) and he miscalculated on not having a veteran point guard, which made the team unwatchable last year. But on balance, given where we were and where we're now, it's a pretty good job of general-managing.

the PG issue was a big problem....you didn't think his PR skills and relationships with agents were a big problem?

[NYSixersFan]

The bolded is a pretty comical statement.

Narrow-minded (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/narrow-minded)
1.having or showing a prejudiced mind, as persons or opinions; biased.
2.not receptive to new ideas; having a closed mind.

You're free to disagree with individual opinions but characterizing every person that supported Sam Hinkie together and judging them as narrow-minded seems to fit the definition of narrow-minded.

They are narrow minded if they don't look at all the facts; therefore causing a biased opinion

I'm a Hinkie supporter and have never debated with you in the past. While some Hinkie supporters might be narrow-minded, there are plenty that aren't and you certainly don't know anything about me. Yet you've already labeled me as narrow-minded because I'm a Hinkie supporter. You are being biased and narrow-minded in this instance.

I was generalizing...you might not be narrow minded, but the majority on this forum seem to be....disregarding or not thinking many of his faults are not really issues.

[NYSixersFan]

Hinkie was the best thing to happen to the Sixers since AI.

Hinkie was better than AI because AI was a fundamentally flawed player, and Hinkie has no fundamental flaws.

Embiid, and Simmons will take us farther than AI ever did.


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OMG...LOL

[Ericb5]

if Embiid works out, then Hinkie is validated.

Don't give me that **** that it was an easy choice because no the **** it isn't. That took balls and many GMs wouldn't have done that in the same situation.

everything else is pointless to talk about when validating "the process".

That's exactly right. I'm no blind Hinkie supporter at all. He had multiple decisions that I disagreed with vehemently, including selecting Dario Saric and the entire disastrous 2015 draft. But anybody that doesn't recognize the foresight and it took to trade Jrue Holiday (to start all over and get back those 1st rounders owed to Orlando and Miami) and draft Embiid while hurt, is lying to himself.

I don't have any more time for fools like that.

I was a fan of the moves that you weren't a fan of, but amen that you see the Forrest through the trees.

The only reason that we have Embiid, and Simmons, which are our only two real difference makers, is because of Hinkie.

His philosophy and methodology proved out, even if you didn't agree with every individual move.


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[hookshot199]

I really don't want to talk about Hinkie anymore, but threads like this force me to do so

The Hinkie supporters are so narrow minded....They refuse to admit that there is more to being a GM then just tanking...and that he failed miserably in the other areas...

We're not narrow minded, we're right-minded. Hinkie's only serious failures were that he occasionally missed the big picture with his low-ranked picks (the Golden State swap is an example) and he miscalculated on not having a veteran point guard, which made the team unwatchable last year. But on balance, given where we were and where we're now, it's a pretty good job of general-managing.

the PG issue was a big problem....you didn't think his PR skills and relationships with agents were a big problem?

No. I think he miscalculated. And he lost his job for that mistake. I simply don't think he understood the position. He knew that Carter-Williams wasn't the answer (which is why that was a good trade), but somehow he thought that Canaan, Wroten and Kendall Marshall (injured or not) could do the job.

[Foshan]

We're not narrow minded, we're right-minded. Hinkie's only serious failures were that he occasionally missed the big picture with his low-ranked picks (the Golden State swap is an example) and he miscalculated on not having a veteran point guard, which made the team unwatchable last year. But on balance, given where we were and where we're now, it's a pretty good job of general-managing.

the PG issue was a big problem....you didn't think his PR skills and relationships with agents were a big problem?

No. I think he miscalculated. And he lost his job for that mistake. I simply don't think he understood the position. He knew that Carter-Williams wasn't the answer (which is why that was a good trade), but somehow he thought that Canaan, Wroten and Kendall Marshall (injured or not) could do the job.

I don't think he thought they could do the job, I think he thought that the combination of them could provide average or slightly below average PG play which could at the very least do a couple simple things: make an open three, make an entry pass to Jah in the post. However with injuries/incompetence they failed to do even the most basic of duties. So yeah big time miscalculation--but I don't think there was an expectation that any of those guys would be game changers.

[LloydFree]

People keep trying to pin Hinkies' firing on his "mistake" of not acquiring a competent PG for the 15/16 season. That didn't get him fired. It was the totality of his actions that cost him his position.

He lost his job because he continually rubbed it in everyone's faces. He didn't miscalculate the PG position. He miscalculated the amount of patience he would be given on his plan. He thought because he made 3-4 genius moves (Jrue trade, Elfrid trade, MCW trade and Kings trade) he earned the right to take an extra year to rub it in everyone's face. He rubbed it in everyone's faces when he doubled down on deferring the 2014 draft, with the Dario Saric pick. He rubbed it in everyone's faces when he traded MCW (though it was the correct move). Then he rubbed it in everyone's face with the ridiculous Jahlil Okafor pick and subsequent attempt to trade for future value. On each move he lost some people (he lost me during the 2015 draft). At some point he lost ownership, and that's on him. Hinkie should have been aware enough of his organization climate and employment situation to measure whether he could afford to punt another season. He wasn't. So he got what he got. Unfair or not.

[James40]

I really don't want to talk about Hinkie anymore, but threads like this force me to do so

The Hinkie supporters are so narrow minded....They refuse to admit that there is more to being a GM then just tanking...and that he failed miserably in the other areas...

We're not narrow minded, we're right-minded. Hinkie's only serious failures were that he occasionally missed the big picture with his low-ranked picks (the Golden State swap is an example) and he miscalculated on not having a veteran point guard, which made the team unwatchable last year. But on balance, given where we were and where we're now, it's a pretty good job of general-managing.

the PG issue was a big problem....you didn't think his PR skills and relationships with agents were a big problem?

Not just the PG, he screwed up by taking a bunch of players that play the same position. The league knows it, it's why they can't get anything for Okafor and Noel, well Noel because he's terrible due to never having a real NBA PG to play with.

It all hinges on Embiid, if he stays healthy and plays 70 games a year for the next 4-5 years, the Sixers will be competing in the playoffs, if not and Simmons becomes the number 1 option, forget it.

Plus, I'll still go with the Okafor draft, IMHO, he needed to come out of that draft with more than just Okafor, especially when they lost the Heat pick that year. A GM not worried about how many games a team might win would have found a way to get more talent on this team.

Btw, I love Embiid, but of course he loves the process, dude didn't play on the what, the 2nd or 3rd worst team in NBA history last year? I'm sure Noel loved the process when he sat out his rookie year as well.

[kriss73]

...I'm pretty sure that Noel doesn't love the Process not for the losses or for the worst team in nba, but because he is not beeing payed yet.

[jbent87]

I really don't want to talk about Hinkie anymore, but threads like this force me to do so

The Hinkie supporters are so narrow minded....They refuse to admit that there is more to being a GM then just tanking...and that he failed miserably in the other areas...

what are the other areas? Isn't the only area winning a championship? Don't you do that by drafting at the top of the draft?

If Hinkie altered his plan at all and gave into outside pressure you realize we probably wouldn't have Ben Simmons right? I guess we can continue to take this until the last possible second until you see what this team is capable of with him and Embiid on the floor, but that day is coming. We'll wait until then.

[hookshot199]

We're not narrow minded, we're right-minded. Hinkie's only serious failures were that he occasionally missed the big picture with his low-ranked picks (the Golden State swap is an example) and he miscalculated on not having a veteran point guard, which made the team unwatchable last year. But on balance, given where we were and where we're now, it's a pretty good job of general-managing.

the PG issue was a big problem....you didn't think his PR skills and relationships with agents were a big problem?

Not just the PG, he screwed up by taking a bunch of players that play the same position. The league knows it, it's why they can't get anything for Okafor and Noel, well Noel because he's terrible due to never having a real NBA PG to play with.

It all hinges on Embiid, if he stays healthy and plays 70 games a year for the next 4-5 years, the Sixers will be competing in the playoffs, if not and Simmons becomes the number 1 option, forget it.

Plus, I'll still go with the Okafor draft, IMHO, he needed to come out of that draft with more than just Okafor, especially when they lost the Heat pick that year. A GM not worried about how many games a team might win would have found a way to get more talent on this team.

Btw, I love Embiid, but of course he loves the process, dude didn't play on the what, the 2nd or 3rd worst team in NBA history last year? I'm sure Noel loved the process when he sat out his rookie year as well.

No he didn't screw up by 'taking a bunch of players that play the same position'. He took a risk on Embiid when he lost out on Wiggins and Parker in the 2014 draft. He took Okafor when Embiid went down 10 days before the 2015 draft. Would Prozingis have been a better pick? Maybe. But he had to take one of the two because, if you recall, it was not clear if Embiid's foot would ever heal. Even now, even though the prognosis looks good, we may be on borrowed time.

As for 'cant get anything for Okafor or Noel', how do you know that?

And to NYSixers: The only relationship that mattered was with Josh Harris. Agents, the media, even the fans don't matter in the big picture. No one who was any good wanted to come to Philly - unless receiving a king's ransom - because we had no future. Now we do.

[spikeslovechild]

Hinkie in hindsight is still awesome. If you want to do the postmortem on why he died well there is a very simple reason for it and it has nothing to do with Okafor, Porzingis, Noel, Exum, MCW, Greek the freak. These kind of mistakes happen every GM in fact with the exception of MCW Hinkie so called mistakes are potentially pretty damn good players.

Oh and if you want to play the hindsight game with Porzingis and Greek the freak for example you'd basically be asking him to take huge risk on raw players when you didn't need him to. Kind of like what BC did with Bargs over LMA. Or Dumars did with Darko over Carmelo. Sorry but even the fact MCW didn't pan out and GTF and Porz are better then expected. I don't want my GM taking those kind of risks because he is going to get burned more often then not. All of his picks were the right move at the time. I continue to believe that 100%

Moving back to the why and whodunnit it was pretty apparent at the time and still is now who is to blame -- Silver. He forced JC on us and set the wheels in motion for his son to come here. He didn't like the process because it shook the very foundation of the NBA to it's core. He would rather teams not collect picks for space and instead collect useless veterans. BC knows the game. Signing Henderson, Bayless, and Sergio. Doing just enough to incur the wrath of the NBA and NBAPA. Oh and the NBAPA didn't like him at all either. He never created new deals and injected money into the system. By taking on old deals for washed up vets to get to the floor (players who would have been cut anyways) he kept salaries low. BC OTH has ingratiated himself nicely with agents and players whether it be JR Smith. Manu. Crawford. Basically any time a team has a player in need of a new deal and the team is playing hardball they invoke BC and say don't you threaten me I have BC and the Sixers have money and they have caved every time. What does that tell you? GM's take the threat of BC doing something stupid seriously.

[jbent87]

Hinkie in hindsight is still awesome. If you want to do the postmortem on why he died well there is a very simple reason for it and it has nothing to do with Okafor, Porzingis, Noel, Exum, MCW, Greek the freak. These kind of mistakes happen every GM in fact with the exception of MCW Hinkie so called mistakes are potentially pretty damn good players.

Oh and if you want to play the hindsight game with Porzingis and Greek the freak for example you'd basically be asking him to take huge risk on raw players when you didn't need him to. Kind of like what BC did with Bargs over LMA. Or Dumars did with Darko over Carmelo. Sorry but even the fact MCW didn't pan out and GTF and Porz are better then expected. I don't want my GM taking those kind of risks because he is going to get burned more often then not. All of his picks were the right move at the time. I continue to believe that 100%

Moving back to the why and whodunnit it was pretty apparent at the time and still is now who is to blame -- Silver. He forced JC on us and set the wheels in motion for his son to come here. He didn't like the process because it shook the very foundation of the NBA to it's core. He would rather teams not collect picks for space and instead collect useless veterans. BC knows the game. Signing Henderson, Bayless, and Sergio. Doing just enough to incur the wrath of the NBA and NBAPA. Oh and the NBAPA didn't like him at all either. He never created new deals and injected money into the system. By taking on old deals for washed up vets to get to the floor (players who would have been cut anyways) he kept salaries low. BC OTH has ingratiated himself nicely with agents and players whether it be JR Smith. Manu. Crawford. Basically any time a team has a player in need of a new deal and the team is playing hardball they invoke BC and say don't you threaten me I have BC and the Sixers have money and they have caved every time. What does that tell you? GM's take the threat of BC doing something stupid seriously.

It wasn't Silver. He didn't just take it upon himself to come in here and throw his weight around. He was approached by people in the league and media. Stephen A. Smith proclaimed yesterday that he begged Silver to fire him for a year. http://www.12up.com/posts/4015413-video-stephen-a-smith-thinks-he-s-the-reason-the-76ers-fired-sam-hinkie

Trolling on Twitter took its toll too - this is postmortem but has a collection of the continued trolling articles this account posted. http://deadspin.com/deadspin-awards-sam-hinkie-memorial-award-for-worst-gm-1782313592

This thing continued to build and build until it got to where its at. It's just pathetic that people can troll to this level to satisfy their incorrect, butthurt agenda.

[James40]

No hindsight at all, I wouldn't have expected Hinkie to take Gobert or Porzingis, especially Porzingis who's agent made it clear he didn't want him drafted to the Sixers, but he should of found a way to get a PG for Noel to at least improve his game because Noel's stock has plummeted, and the way Okafor's 6 week knee surgery has turned into a 7 month recovery (not Hinkies fault) neither of them are likely coveted around the league.

If Hinkie was the draft genius he was purported to be here and other Sixer forums, he would have gotten more legit NBA talent on this roster through the draft and not wasted time and money on garbage like Aldemir, and Marshal, plus found a way to keep a player like T. Rob, someone who actually enjoyed his time being here, but no T Rob was brought in just hit the salary floor, even though he was the best non draftee during Hinkies tenure.

If Embiid turns out healthy, Hinkies time here should be remembered as fond, and the losing records mean nothing, ( unless you're BB of course), if he isn't healthy, Hinkie's time here was basically a waste and the rebuild will continue for another 3-5 years, with losing a lot of games meaning absolutely nothing if you don't get lucky in the draft.

[LloydFree]

Point is: If he had made great picks he would still be here, whether Ish Smith or whoever was the PG. Nobody said a word when Seattle/OKC refused to sign any good players and stunk it up for 3 years, because they were hitting with their picks. Hinkie couldn't survive because he didn't do enough with his picks. He only had one great pick, that pick was injured 2 years and didn't get completely healthy until Hinkie was gone.

[TTP]

No hindsight at all, I wouldn't have expected Hinkie to take Gobert or Porzingis, especially Porzingis who's agent made it clear he didn't want him drafted to the Sixers, but he should of found a way to get a PG for Noel to at least improve his game because Noel's stock has plummeted, and the way Okafor's 6 week knee surgery has turned into a 7 month recovery (not Hinkies fault) neither of them are likely coveted around the league.

If Hinkie was the draft genius he was purported to be here and other Sixer forums, he would have gotten more legit NBA talent on this roster through the draft and not wasted time and money on garbage like Aldemir, and Marshal, plus found a way to keep a player like T. Rob, someone who actually enjoyed his time being here, but no T Rob was brought in just hit the salary floor, even though he was the best non draftee during Hinkies tenure.

If Embiid turns out healthy, Hinkies time here should be remembered as fond, and the losing records mean nothing, ( unless you're BB of course), if he isn't healthy, Hinkie's time here was basically a waste and the rebuild will continue for another 3-5 years, with losing a lot of games meaning absolutely nothing if you don't get lucky in the draft.

Who was claiming Hinkie was a draft genius? I'm fairly sure Hinkie claimed during interviews that there's a significant amount of variance in drafting and that he might not have had an edge but instead attempted to minimize the luck through volume of picks.

Thomas Robinson has been on 6 teams in 5 years and has been a negative player every year. He wasn't even close to the best non draftee during Hinkie's tenure. Covington has been the best. Tim Frazier, Carl Landry, Ish Smith, Isaiah Canaan, and Tony Wroten were all better than Robinson as well.

It's foolish to take a results oriented view with his decisions. Instead you need to grade each individual decision based on the information known at the time, attempting to assign percentages of various outcomes to determine expected value and then compare that to alternative options.

[LloydFree]

If Embiid turns out healthy, Hinkies time here should be remembered as fond, and the losing records mean nothing, ( unless you're BB of course), if he isn't healthy, Hinkie's time here was basically a waste and the rebuild will continue for another 3-5 years, with losing a lot of games meaning absolutely nothing if you don't get lucky in the draft.

The NBA draft isn't luck. The draft is knowing how to project athletes and having the ability to differentiate performance from the college game to the pros.

[Ericb5]

No hindsight at all, I wouldn't have expected Hinkie to take Gobert or Porzingis, especially Porzingis who's agent made it clear he didn't want him drafted to the Sixers, but he should of found a way to get a PG for Noel to at least improve his game because Noel's stock has plummeted, and the way Okafor's 6 week knee surgery has turned into a 7 month recovery (not Hinkies fault) neither of them are likely coveted around the league.

If Hinkie was the draft genius he was purported to be here and other Sixer forums, he would have gotten more legit NBA talent on this roster through the draft and not wasted time and money on garbage like Aldemir, and Marshal, plus found a way to keep a player like T. Rob, someone who actually enjoyed his time being here, but no T Rob was brought in just hit the salary floor, even though he was the best non draftee during Hinkies tenure.

If Embiid turns out healthy, Hinkies time here should be remembered as fond, and the losing records mean nothing, ( unless you're BB of course), if he isn't healthy, Hinkie's time here was basically a waste and the rebuild will continue for another 3-5 years, with losing a lot of games meaning absolutely nothing if you don't get lucky in the draft.

Without Embiid we still have one of the best foundational talents in basketball in Simmons, and high value picks going forward.

It is no longer Embiid or bust, but Embiid is still our best chance at contending, and is our best prospect.


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[James40]

If Embiid turns out healthy, Hinkies time here should be remembered as fond, and the losing records mean nothing, ( unless you're BB of course), if he isn't healthy, Hinkie's time here was basically a waste and the rebuild will continue for another 3-5 years, with losing a lot of games meaning absolutely nothing if you don't get lucky in the draft.

The NBA draft isn't luck. The draft is knowing how to project athletes and having the ability to differentiate performance from the college game to the pros.

Luck as in who falls to you in the draft, healthy Embiid on draft day who knows how different this team looks.

I have my opinions on Hinkie and they will remain, just as most of you do. While I'm sure that I've called him an idiot in the past mostly hot takes, he's far from it, I will never believe this team had to be that bad to become good. That's been the whole reason I didn't like him as our GM, well that and this idea that analytics mean more than team chemistry. Cause until Billy Beane and Darryl Morey win something, ehh, talent and chemistry beat everything IMHO.

I really don't care anymore, he quit, and while I think it's a good idea to have a differing opinions on subjects, arguing Hinkie is a waste of time much like arguing republican vs democrats, fact is they both are crooked and for the most part scumbags, but tell either one that and feelings get hurt, religion is the same way.

[hege53190]

Putting aside the reply I kind of find it interesting that someone that was merciless with criticism of Hinkie is now saying they will win a title within 5 years because of what he did. I'm sort of interested in whether the Hinkie-haters that see the fruits of his efforts now acknowledge a change in opinion or will instead credit Colangelo somehow.

It shouldn't be about giving the proper person the credit. That guy should have the self awareness to admit he didn't know what he was talking about for the last three years, and realize you don't get a Joel Embiid without doing what the 76ers did to get him... and the Bulls did to get Jordan... and the Rockets did to get Olajuwon... and the Spurs did to get Duncan...

Those teams tanked for 3 years?

No but the those teams really did tank where the 76ers just made smart basketball decisions. What the Rockets did for Olajuwon and the Spurs did for Duncan was blatant losing games on purpose. The 1984 draft led to policy change because so many teams were blatantly losing on purpose.

https://reclinergm.wordpress.com/2008/01/19/coin-flip-to-lottery-did-the-rockets-tank-to-get-olajuwon/


Hinkie on the other hand just realized that adding expensive players to get you to 35 wins just did not make sense. When you could go with cheap players save cap dollars, add future assets by taking on other teams cap dollars and get better odds at a true difference maker in the process.

It is hilarious that a GM that goes that way on purpose gets ostracized but may teams go that way and stay that way and nobody bats an eye. Just ask the Lakers, Magic, t-wolves, Knicks or Nets. The Lakers Magic, Nets and Knicks wish they had the 76ers kind of future assets to show for their last 3 years.