The Ben Simmons Megathread - Part III

Kobblehead · Post #61 » by **Kobblehead** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:49 pm

Also, with that kind of handle, you just assume the guy is capable of scoring off the dribble. At least pulling up in the mid-range ala DeRozan. It was hard to predict he would straight up be a drive or bust guy in the halfcourt.

Bum Adebayo · Post #62 » by **Bum Adebayo** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:01 pm

A normal scenario doesn't involve him refusing to shoot in games. So one can't say we had to expect the level he has shown recently predraft. Sorry but no, I see Giannis attempting shots and showing improvements, I see Zion with an improved shot compared to high school, and more important a willingness to shoot. One can expect to see some signs or willingness to improve. I see none of that with Ben. Yeah he is very young, yeah still has massive potential, but one wants to see some signs of a player trying to improve before paying him big cash, I think it is reasonable to think that.

Negrodamus · Post #63 » by **Negrodamus** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:25 pm

Kobblehead wrote:Also, with that kind of handle, you just assume the guy is capable of scoring off the dribble. At least pulling up in the mid-range ala DeRozan. It was hard to predict he would straight up be a drive or bust guy in the halfcourt.

I don't know, I don't think there was ever a moment pre-draft where I thought that Simmons would have a legit shot outside of 20 feet. His shot was nuts and he was not a threat as a spot up shooter. But that wasn't even my biggest concerned.

My macro concern was betting every on him when he was such a flawed player. I couldn't commit to him being the obvious best player in that class. On a micro level, he was apathetic on defense in games I watched, he refused to use his left hand on shots around the basket (to the point of absurdity, honestly). Obviously those issues haven't really hindered him: he's one of the best defensive players in the league and he's still finishing at a decent percentage even though his touch is still pretty mediocre.

My biggest concern now is the commitment we've made to him as our primary ball handler. He is our "Magic Johnson". How are we going to tell him to play off ball and be Boris Diaw in the playoffs? The front office made this bed.

Kobblehead · Post #64 » by **Kobblehead** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:37 pm

What was the alternative at #1 in 2016, though? Simmons was so far ahead of Ingram and Brown that there was no choice.

In hindsight, it would have been great to trade down for more draft capital and select Jamal Murray or Buddy Hield, but nobody was thinking that around the draft.

That 2016 draft was loaded with jags and busts. Simmons is still the best player in it. It's just unfortunate that he hasn't elevated among the modest expected path of development and he isn't as practical as you'd want in a potential star player.

Negrodamus · Post #65 » by **Negrodamus** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:52 pm

Kobblehead wrote:What was the alternative at #1 in 2016, though? Simmons was so far ahead of Ingram and Brown that there was no choice.

In hindsight, it would have been great to trade down for more draft capital and select Jamal Murray or Buddy Hield, but nobody was thinking that around the draft.

That 2016 draft was loaded with jags and busts. Simmons is still the best player in it. It's just unfortunate that he hasn't elevated among the modest expected path of development and he isn't as practical as you'd want in a potential star player.

There isn't an alternative. He was/is the best player. I'm willing to wait on if he can develop a shot. In the meantime, we need to not surround him with guys who don't work well with him on offense (ie, Jimmy Butler).

rzzzzz · Post #66 » by **rzzzzz** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:57 pm

there is some track record for some gifted naturally right handed athletes going to their left. baseball players batting left handed, though inveritably throwing right. Rafa Nadal's uncle moved him to his left to take advantage of tennis' right hand tendency. i don't see similar advantage for basketball. maybe driving to the left is a little against the grain. i fear Ben is a little too old to be developing fundamentals around dominance and touch. though Kareem developed the sky hook fairly late. and magic the baby hook. i lean more towards him developing strength and initiating contact like the Freak. But man, the dude gotta get serious at some serious development of some sort this summer.

Kobblehead · Post #67 » by **Kobblehead** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:01 pm

We're expected to give him a max extension this summer that kicks in after next season. I don't think I can remain patient and see if he can gradually become useful in the halfcourt. I don't envision him ever carrying an MVP-scoring load to makeup his lack of shot (Giannis/Zion). And with said lack of shot, I don't think he can play off to compliment other scorers. I'd bail.

Negrodamus · Post #68 » by **Negrodamus** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:24 pm

Kobblehead wrote:We're expected to give him a max extension this summer that kicks in after next season. I don't think I can remain patient and see if he can gradually become useful in the halfcourt. I don't envision him ever carrying an MVP-scoring load to makeup his lack of shot (Giannis/Zion). And with said lack of shot, I don't think he can play off to compliment other scorers. I'd bail.

So, then that's an argument for not taking him #1 overall. If he's not going to be a guy that carries the scoring load (which he never really seemed to be that type of player, especially with his limitations), then the Sixers should have traded that pick.

the_process · Post #69 » by **the_process** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:27 pm

Black Mage wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:I'd say heavily shop SImmons if it looks like Embiid can remain relatively healthy. I'm concerned about the knee. There's speculation that it could be degenerative arthritis. If that's not it, then I'd really consider trying to trade Ben for AD or someone of that calibre.

Just dawned on me, under Hinkie Sixers did everything right to get him healthy. Under BC they played Embiid on a torn meniscus. Under Elton they played him thru a back strain and knee tendonitis. This organization has done everything backwards since Hinkie left. FU Silver.

Hinkie had a spine and told the marketing people to get out of the room. Since his departure, Scott O'Neil and the ticket sales get a say.

the_process · Post #70 » by **the_process** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:34 pm

Whoever is running this team next year needs to take a hard look at every single player on this roster. Their skillsets, their expected performance over the next 3 years, their fit with the other members of the roster.

Kobblehead · Post #71 » by **Kobblehead** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:39 pm

Negrodamus wrote:So, then that's an argument for not taking him #1 overall. If he's not going to be a guy that carries the scoring load (which he never really seemed to be that type of player, especially with his limitations), then the Sixers should have traded that pick.

My 2016 self still can't make the decision that my 2019 self would.

On paper, he's a 22 ppg per-40 player on 60% true shooting with handle. I think there was reasonable expectation that he would carry a star scoring load (not MVP-level, though). Even though he didn't demonstrate mid-range creation, there still should have been an expectation for it, given his handle.

Ben not meeting the expectations of at least being a 2-level scorer by now should still be viewed as a disappointment, IMO.

The kernel for him being exactly what he is right now was definitely there back in 2016, but an expectation of expansion of his game was still valid, given his pure talent and production.

Kobblehead · Post #72 » by **Kobblehead** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:51 pm

People speculate that Ben doesn't work hard and I'm starting to believe it.

Ben is the same player he was expected to be out of the package with the factory settings. There's been no patches or firmware updates.

Those are indications that he's coasting on the bare minimum required and not actually working hard to improve his strengths and lessen his weaknesses.

Bum Adebayo · Post #73 » by **Bum Adebayo** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:44 pm

It is not all about talent, I always said it, when I watch Simmons, since high school, dude does the exact same things, the same casual style, he has that "coasting on talent" aura on the floor, like he is good enough to play at 80% and still be solid. It is the vibe I got since I started watching him.

eagereyez · Post #74 » by **eagereyez** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:23 pm

I would have traded Simmons for Kawhi. Kawhi is less than 3 years older than Embiid and is a superb shooter. Would have been a great fit.

That was the point of taking BPA #1. No one knew if Embiid could stay healthy. The Sixers had no other star prospects, so just take BPA and hope to hit on one or more of them. The Sixers hit on two, but they don't fit. They had an opportunity to trade Simmons for a better player who fits with Embiid in terms of skill and age, and they passed.

eyeatoma · Post #75 » by **eyeatoma** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:28 pm

I wholeheartedly agree only problem is Kawhi would have been a rental. Pop would have probably been able to squeeze every ounce of potential with Simmons given that Chip England is the spurs shooting coach. As much as I think Simmons wouldn't get to where he needs to be with us the spurs would be the last place I'd send him. It's the one place where he would probably realize his potential.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

Bum Adebayo · Post #76 » by **Bum Adebayo** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:49 pm

eyeatoma wrote:I wholeheartedly agree only problem is Kawhi would have been a rental. Pop would have probably been able to squeeze every ounce of potential with Simmons given that Chip England is the spurs shooting coach. As much as I think Simmons wouldn't get to where he needs to be with us the spurs would be the last place I'd send him. It's the one place where he would probably realize his potential.

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What's wrong with that? if he realizes his potential in another team, good for him. The only thing that matters is if we get the return we want and the production of said player is the expected and helps us considerably. It can be a win for both teams.
It is clear Brett can't provide Simmons a much needed firmware update.

elchengue20 · Post #77 » by **elchengue20** » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:59 am

If Embiid and Butler are going to be part of this team there is no chance Simmons can fullfil his potencial. They don't fit together.

Still we don't know Embiids longterm health status and we don't know ir Butler leaves in FA.

Ir we decide to keep them, i would try to trade Simmons+picks+maybe Zhaire for AD (if he agrees to sign an extension).

PLO · Post #78 » by **PLO** » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:00 am

Read on Twitter

?s=21

eagereyez · Post #79 » by **eagereyez** » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:36 am

Bum Adebayo wrote:A normal scenario doesn't involve him refusing to shoot in games. So one can't say we had to expect the level he has shown recently predraft. Sorry but no, I see Giannis attempting shots and showing improvements, I see Zion with an improved shot compared to high school, and more important a willingness to shoot. One can expect to see some signs or willingness to improve. I see none of that with Ben. Yeah he is very young, yeah still has massive potential, but one wants to see some signs of a player trying to improve before paying him big cash, I think it is reasonable to think that.

This is the thing. Simmons shot 67% from the line at LSU on nearly 300 attempts. And it is not uncommon for first year college players to improve their FT shooting (Noel and Okafor are Philly examples of this). I did not expect Simmons to come back from his first year injury and shoot 56%, a full 20% lower than his college average. Wtf happened? He was supposed to use that year off to improve his shot, not make it worse. And it's compounded by the fact that he is shooting with the wrong hand.

Ben Simmons · Post #80 » by **Ben Simmons** » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:17 am

^ Ben Simmons shot .707 in last year's playoffs and 5.8 attempts per game, better than 2016 LeBron's .661 and 5.9 attempts per game....
14% improvement between regular season and playoffs is probably the best improvement in NBA history 8-)

Kobblehead wrote:What was the alternative at #1 in 2016, though? Simmons was so far ahead of Ingram and Brown that there was no choice.

In hindsight, it would have been great to trade down for more draft capital and select Jamal Murray or Buddy Hield, but nobody was thinking that around the draft.

That 2016 draft was loaded with jags and busts. Simmons is still the best player in it. It's just unfortunate that he hasn't elevated among the modest expected path of development and he isn't as practical as you'd want in a potential star player.

Ben Simmons is not a "potential star player", he's an All-Star player - and not one of those phony all-stars that got voted in by the fans :roll:

If he maintains this level for the next 15 years, he'll probably make 15 All-Star teams.