The benefits of a good coach and young players

[ExplosionsInDaSky]

Despite that Hinkie was gone the fanbase wasn't holding the organization any less accountable for making good on "the process" and certainly the organization knew that. The fanbase is holding the organization accountable for that to this day.

When you sell the fanbase on the idea that losing on purpose will result in a championship, the only way to keep butts in the seats from then on is to sell the idea that the players obtained in that process are capable of winning a championship. That can easily involve an overvaluing of those players.

So the "deductive reasoning" is that fans are such idiots that they'll buy into what management says as opposed to what they see with their own eyes, and that the front office of a billion dollar professional sports organization is making personnel decisions 4-5 years after the fact based on actions taken by a completely different front office. Right.

I tried, but like Negrodamus said, there's really no point. You make rash assertions about every topic, never using facts or real tangible evidence, but instead your own silly brand of armchair psychology. Have a nice night.

The brand of armchair psychology I'm employing is called human nature. You oughta study up on it sometime.

My God, you're just as bad on ThePhins forum.

[brannigan73]

The good (and bad) news of that is Jimmy Butler had an entire career of Joel Embiid playoff performances prior to going to Miami. Wasn't until he was 30 that he turned it up to the next level; even then, he was a complete dud in 2020-2021 playoffs.

Love Jimmy but he legit got outscored by Brynn Forbes just a few years ago lol

The above posts make the mistake of thinking that production is what's inspirational.

Effort is what's inspirational, whether it results in production or not.

Embiid and Harden are short on effort all too often when it matters. Butler is never short on effort.

All that effort and Jimmy never made it out of the second round until he went to the Heat. Perhaps Embiid will become more "inspirational" when he hits 30 years old.

I dont remember anybody calling Jimmy Butler the best player in the league like Embiid. Also, even though he didnt make it past the second round until the Heat he was always better in the playoffs compared to the regular season while sadly our leader is always worse. Embiid is a great player and seems like a nice guy but he is a terrible leader. I dont know how else you can describe his sulking during big games and his frequent blame passing. And yes its blame passing when you start by criticizing others and then come back with I have to play better too afterwards. A leader says I have to play better that's it!

[Negrodamus]

Draymond punched a teammate in the face which has cause a calculable impact to Poole’s career. Jimmy spent his entire career alienating teammates and even recently threatened to fight his coach.

I’m sorry, but I’m uninterested in everyone’s opinion of the “right” way to lead on this board.

[Jailblazers7]

Gotta admit, claiming to be an expert on “human nature” is very funny.

[Ferry Avenue]

Gotta admit, claiming to be an expert on “human nature” is very funny.

There are experts in a lot of things in the world. Is it impossible I’m one? You could very well be an expert in something yourself.

[mjkvol]

Despite that Hinkie was gone the fanbase wasn't holding the organization any less accountable for making good on "the process" and certainly the organization knew that. The fanbase is holding the organization accountable for that to this day.

When you sell the fanbase on the idea that losing on purpose will result in a championship, the only way to keep butts in the seats from then on is to sell the idea that the players obtained in that process are capable of winning a championship. That can easily involve an overvaluing of those players.

So the "deductive reasoning" is that fans are such idiots that they'll buy into what management says as opposed to what they see with their own eyes, and that the front office of a billion dollar professional sports organization is making personnel decisions 4-5 years after the fact based on actions taken by a completely different front office. Right.

I tried, but like Negrodamus said, there's really no point. You make rash assertions about every topic, never using facts or real tangible evidence, but instead your own silly brand of armchair psychology. Have a nice night.

The brand of armchair psychology I'm employing is called human nature. You oughta study up on it sometime.

First it was 'deductive reasoning', now it's 'human nature'. Pray tell, what's next?

[DCasey91]

There was more or less just one full calendar year of catastrophic moves the FO made, BC and B-B share the blame. Fultz trade, Butler trade then walking, Tobias trade then max, Horford signing, Zhaire Smith trade. Blew pretty much all of our considerable assets and left us capped out without a second star, and ready to be f’d when Simmons fell apart. We walked out of that series of moves minus 5 1st rd picks (and a cheap Covington who was worth at least one more) and with Tobias on a giant contract. And Seth curry and Danny Green for a minute too I guess (yay!).

I’m not a huge Morey guy but I think he’s competent and that he and most GMs probably wouldn’t have done any of those moves, let alone all of them. So I don’t think it makes sense to sideswipe the ‘FO’ as a whole. Process was well set up, Morey’s made the roster make more sense. But that year was just a brutal stretch and we’re walking through the wreckage now. Gotta be both lucky and good to field a champ team and we were both pretty unlucky and pretty crap after the Process set the table.

100% agree well said. The only caveat I’d add is we ourselves made the luck as worse as possible. The biggest head scratcher to me wasn’t the Fultz/Simmons debacle it was the Bridges scenario. We needed a wing and a PG and it was the worst possible time to double down on a project. The timeline made no sense then as it does now. Yeah Ben made Shai look redundant in the sense that the FO was sticking to the wrong gun which was proven to be wrong but that’s happened before but Bridges? Didn’t understand it then still don’t now. Ready made and ready to go with a pro game, homegrown the whole works.

Tin foil but whatever I seriously think there’s some sour things going on away from the public eye. There’s still sour grapes in the org imho.

At the very least we’d be 2/5 on the starting positions long term instead of 1/5.

Well my counter to that would be that I was actually working at Villanova at the time and watched a lot of Bridges, and I loved him as a college player but didn’t think he was a guaranteed solid starter in the NBA—let alone what he was on PHX (probably the best 3D guy ever), let alone what he’s become this year. I think it’s just a hindsight take to think that everyone could’ve penciled him in as a major cog in the machine at draft time; to my eyes he was a really good but flawed 3D prospect, and those guys fail or disappoint a lot.

I also think we got a terrific return—the issue is just that we drafted a rough prospect with one pick and then traded the other in the Tobias deal. Zhaire Smith and 30% of the right to max Tobias Harris is an awful return for a prospect like Bridges, even if two picks in the teens for a #10 isn’t bad.

It’s funny because I followed that draft very closely as a byproduct of Luka. Luka was a clear number one and it wasn’t Euroleague play that didn’t surprise me it was actually Eurocup when Slovenia won with an in form Dragic. Zingis was the player of the tourney but Luka was clearly the most talented one there even back then lol. Thought he’d be a bigger Hayward but cleared that easy

Fwiw I had Carter Jr over Bagley as he always seemed to have a more transferable game when they played together it’s the same thing with Bridges and it’s my number one thing I look when envisioning prospects on their role at the next level. The polish, the feel, the transferability. Bridge’s shooting that season was legit and consistent the whole time.

Did I think he could average 15+? No but scoring is inflated to the max in the NBA. But I really thought he was plug in and play and was an easy fit on any team.

The thing that soured me the most was how it was handled on draft day. Even Mikal was shocked.

In reality pick 16 is pretty spot on for the range on Zhaire but it wasn’t what we needed at the time.

[76ciology]

Jimmy Butler and Erik Spoelstra had a heated argument during a timeout in a game against the Golden State Warriors on March 8, 2022. The argument was reportedly about Butler's frustration with the team's defensive effort. Spoelstra was seen yelling at Butler, and Butler was seen yelling back.

[PhillyRocks1]

Our front office being bad during the Colangelo & Brand years has nothing to do with “the process”. They were bad at their jobs all on their own.

If you want to argue that a culture of losing was established & that’s why Joel is now a big fat loser, then fine I’m willing to entertain that thought. But blaming the awful track record of our previous front office on “the process” and the fanbase is ridiculous.

Oh, there is plenty to blame. Not only did he not have any kind of leadership, he drafted horrible. Might be the worst drafter in the history of the NBA.

[Ferry Avenue]

So the "deductive reasoning" is that fans are such idiots that they'll buy into what management says as opposed to what they see with their own eyes, and that the front office of a billion dollar professional sports organization is making personnel decisions 4-5 years after the fact based on actions taken by a completely different front office. Right.

I tried, but like Negrodamus said, there's really no point. You make rash assertions about every topic, never using facts or real tangible evidence, but instead your own silly brand of armchair psychology. Have a nice night.

The brand of armchair psychology I'm employing is called human nature. You oughta study up on it sometime.

First it was 'deductive reasoning', now it's 'human nature'. Pray tell, what's next?

I suspect what’s next is that you’ll continue to respond to select posts of mine in a snarky, condescending manner, intended to accomplish nothing other than portraying yourself as superior to me.

[Ferry Avenue]

Jimmy Butler and Erik Spoelstra had a heated argument during a timeout in a game against the Golden State Warriors on March 8, 2022. The argument was reportedly about Butler's frustration with the team's defensive effort. Spoelstra was seen yelling at Butler, and Butler was seen yelling back.

And the team’s record before and after that incident is proof positive that it was productive rather than destructive. That’s a leader.

[76ciology]

Jimmy Butler and Erik Spoelstra had a heated argument during a timeout in a game against the Golden State Warriors on March 8, 2022. The argument was reportedly about Butler's frustration with the team's defensive effort. Spoelstra was seen yelling at Butler, and Butler was seen yelling back.

And the team’s record before and after that incident is proof positive that it was productive rather than destructive. That’s a leader.

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[Mik317]

yes threatening to fight your coach is great leadership

[mjkvol]

The brand of armchair psychology I'm employing is called human nature. You oughta study up on it sometime.

First it was 'deductive reasoning', now it's 'human nature'. Pray tell, what's next?

I suspect what’s next is that you’ll continue to respond to select posts of mine in a snarky, condescending manner, intended to accomplish nothing other than portraying yourself as superior to me.

Please don't flatter yourself. I don't give a rat's ass about you, but it's incredibly annoying having the threads cluttered up with your troll level garbage. Try posting something just once that doesn't have the entire thread doing a virtual eye-roll. But I suppose being an expert on human nature who uses deductive reasoning without facts might make that difficult.

[Ferry Avenue]

First it was 'deductive reasoning', now it's 'human nature'. Pray tell, what's next?

I suspect what’s next is that you’ll continue to respond to select posts of mine in a snarky, condescending manner, intended to accomplish nothing other than portraying yourself as superior to me.

Please don't flatter yourself. I don't give a rat's ass about you, but it's incredibly annoying having the threads cluttered up with your troll level garbage. Try posting something just once that doesn't have the entire thread doing a virtual eye-roll. But I suppose being an expert on human nature who uses deductive reasoning without facts might make that difficult.

As I said (bolded above).

[Negrodamus]

Embiid tries hold his teammates accountable and that bad, but other stars hold their teammates AND coaches accountable in way more confrontational ways and that's leadership. Got it. It's only leadership if it works (and works means ends up in the ECF/Finals).

[Jailblazers7]

Gotta give Spo a ton of credit. He’s the only coach who has been able to channel Jimmy Butler’s energy into sustained success with a single team. I really give Jimmy zero credit here & all of it goes to Miami because he’s less of a leader & more of a difficult personality that needs to be managed.

[Ferry Avenue]

Leadership is determined primarily by high effort and drive that's exhibited selflessly toward the goal of winning as a team. PJ Tucker is a leader. Jimmy Butler is a leader. Embiid and Harden are short on effort and high on lackadaisical lethargy all too often to be considered effective leaders in my opinion. They appear to lack effort and drive all too often. That wouldn't be so bad if they were peripheral players, but when they're the tip of your spear it's an issue. They then become a ball and chain on the team as opposed to the uplifting inspirational players they would be if they were effective leaders.

[mjkvol]

I suspect what’s next is that you’ll continue to respond to select posts of mine in a snarky, condescending manner, intended to accomplish nothing other than portraying yourself as superior to me.

You don't need me or anyone else for that, you do a fine job on your own .

[Ferry Avenue]

You don't need me or anyone else for that, you do a fine job on your own .

I would suggest you place me on ignore and/or report the issue to a moderator and let him or her handle it. The forum is for the discussion of the Philadelphia 76ers, not your trolling.