Welcome Okafor: Thread 2

[Easymoney]

Lloyd, your hate for Okafor has become downright irrational.

It's one thing to point out his flaws and discuss aspects of his game which need improvement, but you relish in every opportunity you get to take a dump on him. It is strange.

The crazy thing is you won't dare say a bad word about Noel when he has things he needs to work on as well. You always conveniently gloss over that.

[Negrodamus]

karl malone had a 15 footer. but then again, karl malone had one of the best point guards in the game giving him those easy looks too.

the karl malone comparison is interesting. malone was built like a truck, and was a pretty good athlete.

boozer also had deron williams in utah. that's why it's kinda silly to want okafor to get shipped out after 1 year with the sixers. i want to see what happens when he and simmons are on the floor together

Karl Malone also ran the pick and roll perfectly: meaning he actually screened his man and rolled to the basket. Let's see Okafor get that part down before we compare him to the second highest scorer in NBA history.

[ExplosionsInDaSky]

Lloyd, your hate for Okafor has become downright irrational.

It's one thing to point out his flaws and discuss aspects of his game which need improvement, but you relish in every opportunity you get to take a dump on him. It is strange.

The crazy thing is you won't dare say a bad word about Noel when he has things he needs to work on as well. You always conveniently gloss over that.

I agree, there are certain posters on here that seem to be deliberately picking apart Jahlil Okafor every chance they get. It doesn't really bother me, but what is puzzling is that (as you stated) the flaws of Noel never seem to be discussed.
With that said, I really like Nerlens Noel also. This is a tough situation as a fan to have to be in. I can only imagine what it is like for the players and the people of the organization that will eventually have to make a decision on who to keep. I personally hope we keep Okafor, that's no secret, but I certainly am a Noel fan.

I just think Joel Embiid can be the real deal at center, and it ultimately makes Nerlens Noel expendable, whereas with Jahlil Okafor, I remain intrigued about his potential ability as a power forward next to Embiid. He has shown the ability to play the position...I'm just a little bit curious to see if he can pull it off for 15-20 minutes a night next to Embiid.

Everyone got caught up with the small ball trend, and I honestly think it's going to get exposed fairly soon. Teams will figure out how to defend small lineups while remaining big. When that happens, I think an Okafor/Embiid front court would feast. You have to look at it like this, small ball is a trend right now, it's worked for any team that has Lebron James on it, and it's worked on a team that is historically one of the greatest jump shooting teams of all time. It's not going to last in my opinion.

We have potentially the best front court in the entire league if Okafor can manage minutes at power forward and Joel Embiid can stay healthy. I emphasize the word "manage" because to clarify my opinion, I don't see Okafor full time at power forward, but more like 15-20 minutes at the position.

[Kirk Van Houten]

The best thing about this entire Noel VS Oak argument is that Embiid is a better C than both of them and if they do slide to the 4 both Saric and Simmons are better than them. Basically they are backups on this team. Both are not in our best starting 5. Front office has to decide who is the best back up which will probably be based on who they can get on a better contract.

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[phifans]

Lloyd, your hate for Okafor has become downright irrational.

It's one thing to point out his flaws and discuss aspects of his game which need improvement, but you relish in every opportunity you get to take a dump on him. It is strange.

The crazy thing is you won't dare say a bad word about Noel when he has things he needs to work on as well. You always conveniently gloss over that.

Not only Lloyd. There are about five guys on this board who hates Okafor. And they all seem very "knowledgable" you know. Thats the only explanation on why you hate your own player and hope he busts and claim he sucks just after his rookie season. I dont know why ... maybe because Okafor is unlikable ?
I'll put on this, in my country you never bitch on your own guys as long as they put effert on every game.
I don't even care if he sucks. You support them whatever happened. You are fans not "bascketball experts" and nobody cares what you think. All I care is our youngster keep going and making progress. So lets see what will happen next season until then I will totally ignore what they said which is completely nonsense at this point.

[phifans]

The best thing about this entire Noel VS Oak argument is that Embiid is a better C than both of them and if they do slide to the 4 both Saric and Simmons are better than them. Basically they are backups on this team. Both are not in our best starting 5. Front office has to decide who is the best back up which will probably be based on who they can get on a better contract.

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The only one between these five guys who may accept a bench role for long terms is Saric. Theres no way Noel or Okafor would like to be a reserve here. And we don't know yet what position Simmons will play when all is said and done ( 3 or 4 ? ). And we may even need more than one year to determine if Embiid can actually keep healthy for long term.

[lotto29]

This last pages are hilarious! Okafor is now Karl Malone! Or Aldridge! dear god, the absurdity...

The absurd is those who are clouded by hate against someone who put up the kind of numbers Okafor did last year and improved in every area of his game as the season went along.

For christ sakes he put up 17.1 PER and averaged 18 PPG as a 19 year old. Malone who you consider an absurd comparison put up a 13.7 PER and 15 PPG entering the league at age 22. Sometimes I think you people forget that Okafor is going to get better. You guys act like how he played at age 19 is how he is going to be playing in 2-3 years...

Talk about absurd.

He's not Karl Malone. It's not even potential impact, it's style of play. Plus position. If you want to compare him to guys like Marc Gasol or Pau, that's more reasonable.

[LloydFree]

Who's more irrational? The guy that thinks Okafor is either some combination of Carmelo Anthony and Marc Gasol, or even Karl Malone. Or the guy who says his ceiling is Brook Lopez. A solid veteran who has played 9 years in the league and averaged 18 ppg in the NBA. It's surprising to me that the sentiment here is that Brook Lopez is an insult to Okafor.

[Unbreakable99]

Lloyd, your hate for Okafor has become downright irrational.

It's one thing to point out his flaws and discuss aspects of his game which need improvement, but you relish in every opportunity you get to take a dump on him. It is strange.

The crazy thing is you won't dare say a bad word about Noel when he has things he needs to work on as well. You always conveniently gloss over that.

Not only Lloyd. There are about five guys on this board who hates Okafor. And they all seem very "knowledgable" you know. Thats the only explanation on why you hate your own player and hope he busts and claim he sucks just after his rookie season. I dont know why ... maybe because Okafor is unlikable ?
I'll put on this, in my country you never bitch on your own guys as long as they put effert on every game.
I don't even care if he sucks. You support them whatever happened. You are fans not "bascketball experts" and nobody cares what you think. All I care is our youngster keep going and making progress. So lets see what will happen next season until then I will totally ignore what they said which is completely nonsense at this point.

I'm not on either side but fans can also be basketball experts. What makes an expert? Writing about it in a national paper? Talking about it to the national audience? Who would you claim is an expert? I consider myself pretty knowledgeable about basketball even though I'm a fan. I also think there are some very knowledgeable people on this board.

And not wanting certain players going forward and pointing out their weaknesses is not always bitching. You also said you don't bitchnon your own guys as long as they put in effort every game. Well that is one of Okafor's flaws. He is lazy. He's a lazy rebounder. He practically doesn't care about boxing out and going after the ball. He's a pretty lazy screener too. Okafor has some laziness to his game. He also has some grea attributes. He needs to clean up his laziness and care about rebounding. That's the easiest thing to fix that is one weakness of his. Rebounding is all about effort and boxing out and having a general idea where you think the ball will come off the rim if missed. Okafor is one of the laziest rebounders I have ever seen and it's unacceptable. I still think he can be good if he cleans up some stuff. He's not a lost cause.

[lotto29]

Lloyd, your hate for Okafor has become downright irrational.

It's one thing to point out his flaws and discuss aspects of his game which need improvement, but you relish in every opportunity you get to take a dump on him. It is strange.

The crazy thing is you won't dare say a bad word about Noel when he has things he needs to work on as well. You always conveniently gloss over that.

Not only Lloyd. There are about five guys on this board who hates Okafor. And they all seem very "knowledgable" you know. Thats the only explanation on why you hate your own player and hope he busts and claim he sucks just after his rookie season. I dont know why ... maybe because Okafor is unlikable ?
I'll put on this, in my country you never bitch on your own guys as long as they put effert on every game.
I don't even care if he sucks. You support them whatever happened. You are fans not "bascketball experts" and nobody cares what you think. All I care is our youngster keep going and making progress. So lets see what will happen next season until then I will totally ignore what they said which is completely nonsense at this point.

I'm not on either side but fans can also be basketball experts. What makes an expert? Writing about it in a national paper? Talking about it to the national audience? Who would you claim is an expert? I consider myself pretty knowledgeable about basketball even though I'm a fan. I also think there are some very knowledgeable people on this board.

And not wanting certain players going forward and pointing out their weaknesses is not always bitching. You also said you don't bitchnon your own guys as long as they put in effort every game. Well that is one of Okafor's flaws. He is lazy. He's a lazy rebounder. He practically doesn't care about boxing out and going after the ball. He's a pretty lazy screener too. Okafor has some laziness to his game. He also has some grea attributes. He needs to clean up his laziness and care about rebounding. That's the easiest thing to fix that is one weakness of his. Rebounding is all about effort and boxing out and having a general idea where you think the ball will come off the rim if missed. Okafor is one of the laziest rebounders I have ever seen and it's unacceptable. I still think he can be good if he cleans up some stuff. He's not a lost cause.

But you are hater though for saying he's lazy.

[LloydFree]

Not only Lloyd. There are about five guys on this board who hates Okafor. And they all seem very "knowledgable" you know. Thats the only explanation on why you hate your own player and hope he busts and claim he sucks just after his rookie season. I dont know why ... maybe because Okafor is unlikable ?
I'll put on this, in my country you never bitch on your own guys as long as they put effert on every game.
I don't even care if he sucks. You support them whatever happened. You are fans not "bascketball experts" and nobody cares what you think. All I care is our youngster keep going and making progress. So lets see what will happen next season until then I will totally ignore what they said which is completely nonsense at this point.

I'm not on either side but fans can also be basketball experts. What makes an expert? Writing about it in a national paper? Talking about it to the national audience? Who would you claim is an expert? I consider myself pretty knowledgeable about basketball even though I'm a fan. I also think there are some very knowledgeable people on this board.

And not wanting certain players going forward and pointing out their weaknesses is not always bitching. You also said you don't bitchnon your own guys as long as they put in effort every game. Well that is one of Okafor's flaws. He is lazy. He's a lazy rebounder. He practically doesn't care about boxing out and going after the ball. He's a pretty lazy screener too. Okafor has some laziness to his game. He also has some grea attributes. He needs to clean up his laziness and care about rebounding. That's the easiest thing to fix that is one weakness of his. Rebounding is all about effort and boxing out and having a general idea where you think the ball will come off the rim if missed. Okafor is one of the laziest rebounders I have ever seen and it's unacceptable. I still think he can be good if he cleans up some stuff. He's not a lost cause.

But you are hater though for saying he's lazy.

I'm a hater, and I haven't said he was lazy or made any personal comments about him. Just the way it is. Evan Turner got the same kind of vigorous defense (and ridiculous comps) from many of the same guys.

[CoreyGallagher]

He's a lazy rebounder. He practically doesn't care about boxing out and going after the ball.

Idk, I actually believe he boxes out too much - I used to comment on it often in gamethreads, but also he has a low percentage of 'free' rebounds (50.1%) and everyone rebounds better with him than with Noel even though they both individually rebound the same percentage when the other isn't on the court. I'm also not sure if he's lazy chasing rebounds either given his chase rebound percentage, it's actually quite high (29.7%). His biggest issue seems to be scrapping for rebounds and not knowing where the ball is going to bounce off, has a low winning rebound percentage (35.1%).

Can compare those numbers to rest of the league here - https://nyloncalculus.com/stats/detailed-nba-rebounding-stats/

[Kolkmania]

He's a lazy rebounder. He practically doesn't care about boxing out and going after the ball.

Idk, I actually believe he boxes out too much - I used to comment on it often, but also he has a low percentage of 'free' rebounds (50.1%) and everyone rebounds better with him than with Noel even though they both individually rebound the same percentage when the other isn't on the court. I'm also not sure if he's lazy chasing rebounds either given his chase rebound percentage, it's actually quite high (29.7%). Biggest issue seems to be scrapping for rebounds and not knowing where the ball is going to bounce off, has a low winning rebound percentage (35.1%).

Can compare those numbers to rest of the league here - https://nyloncalculus.com/stats/detailed-nba-rebounding-stats/

Is there a metric around that shows the OREB% of the opponent team with Okafor on the court vs. Okafor off the court? Mentioned it all the time, he boxed his opponent out and a teammate grabbed the easy board.

[Unbreakable99]

He's a lazy rebounder. He practically doesn't care about boxing out and going after the ball.

Idk, I actually believe he boxes out too much - I used to comment on it often, but also he has a low percentage of 'free' rebounds (50.1%) and everyone rebounds better with him than with Noel even though they both individually rebound the same percentage when the other isn't on the court. I'm also not sure if he's lazy chasing rebounds either given his chase rebound percentage, it's actually quite high (29.7%). Biggest issue seems to be scrapping for rebounds and not knowing where the ball is going to bounce off, has a low winning rebound percentage (35.1%).

Can compare those numbers to rest of the league here - https://nyloncalculus.com/stats/detailed-nba-rebounding-stats/

After thinking about it a little more I think you're right. Okafor will put his body on the guy but he just stands there looking at everyone else get the ball. I'm screaming at my tv to go after the ball. Okafor does try to find a body to box out but he gives zero effort after that. Stop standing and looking and go after the ball. He just does the first part and tries to bid out but doesn't do much after that.

I really want Okafor to work out. I still think it's hard to be the best player at every level of basketball your entire life to automatically becoming horrible and useless in less than a year. Offensively I think Okafor could fit very well with Simmons. If he improves the defensive side he could be an integral part of a winning team.

[Ericb5]

Who's more irrational? The guy that thinks Okafor is either some combination of Carmelo Anthony and Marc Gasol, or even Karl Malone. Or the guy who says his ceiling is Brook Lopez. A solid veteran who has played 9 years in the league and averaged 18 ppg in the NBA. It's surprising to me that the sentiment here is that Brook Lopez is an insult to Okafor.

The Brook Lopez guy is crazier.

[CoreyGallagher]

He's a lazy rebounder. He practically doesn't care about boxing out and going after the ball.

Idk, I actually believe he boxes out too much - I used to comment on it often, but also he has a low percentage of 'free' rebounds (50.1%) and everyone rebounds better with him than with Noel even though they both individually rebound the same percentage when the other isn't on the court. I'm also not sure if he's lazy chasing rebounds either given his chase rebound percentage, it's actually quite high (29.7%). Biggest issue seems to be scrapping for rebounds and not knowing where the ball is going to bounce off, has a low winning rebound percentage (35.1%).

Can compare those numbers to rest of the league here - https://nyloncalculus.com/stats/detailed-nba-rebounding-stats/

Is there a metric around that shows the OREB% of the opponent team with Okafor on the court vs. Okafor off the court? Mentioned it all the time, he boxed his opponent out and a teammate grabbed the easy board.

Defensive rebounding percentage with Okafor 74.6%, without 73.7.

Total Rebound percentage with Okafor 47.8%, without 45.6. (So, 2.2 more rebounds per 100 possessions when Okafor is on the court)

[mksp]

Noel's flaws aren't as discussed as much because you can actually win a championship with his profile for a C (rim protecting, defensive center with limited offensive game).

Nobody is winning a championship with Okafor *unless* his profile changes, in which case he's a superstar, because it would make him a two-way, rim protecting Center. Most of us just don't think he has the mentality, intelligence or physical tools to do this.

[LloydFree]

Noel's flaws aren't as discussed as much because you can actually win a championship with his profile for a C (rim protecting, defensive center with limited offensive game).

Nobody is winning a championship with Okafor *unless* his profile changes, in which case he's a superstar, because it would make him a two-way, rim protecting Center. Most of us just don't think he has the mentality, intelligence or physical tools to do this.

All of this except I do think he has enough intelligence. He just doesn't have the instincts or Physical profile to do pull it off. He's just not that type of player.

[Ericb5]

Noel's flaws aren't as discussed as much because you can actually win a championship with his profile for a C (rim protecting, defensive center with limited offensive game).

Nobody is winning a championship with Okafor *unless* his profile changes, in which case he's a superstar, because it would make him a two-way, rim protecting Center. Most of us just don't think he has the mentality, intelligence or physical tools to do this.

I don't think that he will ever be a great rim protector. He has the size and length, but he doesn't have the quickness or instincts for it. The instincts of a shot blocker are things that you are born with, and Okafor simply doesn't have them.

However, that doesn't mean that he has to be a poor defender. He can still use his size and length to disrupt things, defend the paint, and rebound better.

As I have said before, I think that there is some low hanging fruit available with him as a defender and a rebounder that I think he could develop into skills quickly. This season will be a test of his ability to improve there. If he doesn't then it will be a long term problem, but if he does, he should be fine. He doesn't need a miracle of improvement to become mediocre.

One of the reasons that I lost a lot of confidence in Noel was because he didn't improve in his second year the way that I had hoped. I think Okafor deserves the chance to see if HE can do it.

[76ciology]

For me, in the end it's a question of one's belief on how high do you think Jah can improve on defense.

I just think that the right sentiment is acknowledging he is not a defensive anchor but he has the tools to be atleast an above average to good defensive big with the ff:
1.) Length/Size+Mobility ( I already posted clips to kill the myth of him being slowfooted)
2.) On/Off defensive numbers in January (when team was playing in high spirit)
3.) Volume and DFG% of DFGA (would a slow footed defensive big have that high volume of DFGA and % contest per game?)
4.) The team w/o Okafor plays poor defense (see DRTG when Jah sat out the season)

Many said how Jah is the most NBA-ready player. Yes, if it's the 90s. Unlike KAT/KP who suits the pace+space game, Jah actually has a lot of aspects who needs to evolve. Just like most bigs coming into the league. We saw guys like Duncan, Love, Gasol and DMC loose weight and expand their range. Jah should follow the same path.

For me, I don't expect him to be a defensive anchor. I don't value defensive anchor bigs that much personally, and I do think the league is leaning towards collective defense. I just want him to be a plus defender on the court and be a huge plus on offense. And I know he has what it takes to be one.