Where is Jahlil Okafor?

[Ericb5]

Jah feels like our new Evan Turner (right down to the truthers that feel he could be a star if he was just used a certain way and we are just using him all wrong!). Hell of a college player with fatal flaws for their position in the NBA.

It's the exact same situation and exact same posters making the exact same nonsensical excuses. "Doug Collins is the reason Evan Turner is garbage and anybody that says different loves Jody Meeks". Sub In Brown, Okafor and Noel and repost.

Now the argument that is supposed to make all of the sense in the world: Okafor isn't succeeding because he's playing out of position... at Center. Okafor's value is being compromised because Brett Brown is refusing to allow the rest of the league see Okafor humiliate himself while chasing (or more likely, not chasing) the league's Power Forwards all over the court. Brett Brown is an idiot because he is refusing to submarine his own team's defense and ruin any and all spacing on Offense, by playing this stiff against the league's Power Forwards. SMH. And it's the same Evan Turner army with this stuff.

It's unbelievable. Noel succeeded as a rookie with this coach and terrible teammates. Now Embiid is succeeding with this coach and these teammates. But Okafor can't succeed, because the coach is an idiot and his teammates are historically bad. Un-be-lievable.

Okafor is doing less then succeeding he's regressing in almost every area since his rookie year except defense which while still bad is better.

Noel also didn't succeed as a rookie. I mean he had a decent rookie year but I look at what Embiid doing as succeeding. He had a year that you hoped he would build upon but was unable to do so the following season.

How many games as Okafor played fully healthy for you to draw any conclusions about his play?

2 games.

He has literally played two games at full strength, and maybe 8 others with restrictions, and you are trying to draw conclusions from that about him regressing.




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[eagereyez]

Playing Okafor and Embiid together doesn't automatically equal to play Okafor at 4 though. In fact its more like play Embiid at 4 who can stretch the floor on offense and can cover larger range on the defense. Its not ideal but its better than play OK4／Saric together as our second unit. Long term though we might have to find a better 4 to pair with Embiid(I really dont like play Simmons at 4 either) but thats after we solve our crowded big man rotation. And before that we may have to find some way to get all of them enough time to play and try as hard as we can to ensure them play to an acceptable level at least.

Why don't you like Simmons at the 4? He's as tall as Chris Bosh, strong, and a great rebounder. Seems like he'd be able to defend the 4 pretty easily, and opposing 4's will be at a massive disadvantage trying to stop him on the perimeter.

[Sixerscan]

Why would you think of that way ?
Maybe its something worth to be tried to solve our unbalaced roster and hide OK4 deficient to lift his performance and value ?
Or you have some better idea to deal with it especially when Noel is gonna back in a few weeks ?

The unbalanced roster thing is separate, I get that. We have a jam and don't really have much to lose until Simmons comes back.

This idea that Okafor's deficiencies are going to be masked instead of highlighted playing the 4 seems like trolling though. Does this really mean that the team will be less bad with him on the court if Embiid is also out there? Well yeah but the team would be even better if there was an actual power forward out there.

Playing Okafor and Embiid together doesn't automatically equal to play Okafor at 4 though. In fact its more like play Embiid at 4 who can stretch the floor on offense and can cover larger range on the defense. Its not ideal but its better than play OK4／Saric together as our second unit. Long term though we might have to find a better 4 to pair with Embiid(I really dont like play Simmons at 4 either) but thats after we solve our crowded big man rotation. And before that we may have to find some way to get all of them enough time to play and try as hard as we can to ensure them play to an acceptable level at least.

Exactly. It's not really about playing Okafor at the 4. Because people that propose that is his natural position in the NBA must be part of some sort of elaborate prank.

Embiid/Okafor being better than Saric/Okafor has everything to do with Embiid being better than Saric and very little to do with Okafor. As you said, Embiid is the one that can shoot and cover some forwards. So let's be honest and talk about it in terms of Embiid playing the 4 rather than Okafor.

[phifans]

Playing Okafor and Embiid together doesn't automatically equal to play Okafor at 4 though. In fact its more like play Embiid at 4 who can stretch the floor on offense and can cover larger range on the defense. Its not ideal but its better than play OK4／Saric together as our second unit. Long term though we might have to find a better 4 to pair with Embiid(I really dont like play Simmons at 4 either) but thats after we solve our crowded big man rotation. And before that we may have to find some way to get all of them enough time to play and try as hard as we can to ensure them play to an acceptable level at least.

Why don't you like Simmons at the 4? He's as tall as Chris Bosh, strong, and a great rebounder. Seems like he'd be able to defend the 4 pretty easily, and opposing 4's will be at a massive disadvantage trying to stop him on the perimeter.

Ideally I would prefer a streach 4 to pair with Embiid and play Simmons at 3 (defensively and point guard on offense) Im not sure if theres successful examples that playing your PF as your primary ball handler.

[TTP]

If he is greasing out average offensively you need a different ruler. I mean his stats are there for all to see. He hasn't just been bad he's been really, really bad.

Negative OWS, negative OBPM, 9.1 PER (16 is avg), higher TOV% then AST%. He's been awful across the board.

Yeah box score stats don't like him and I don't like box score stats.

Your boards never include defense though (not surprising given that you champion for Okafor).

Btw your stat, BPM, grades Kris Dunn (-1.1) as significantly above replacement level (-2.0) and grades Okafor as significantly worse (-4.1).

You said he was grading average overall offensively. Not me. I wanted you to defend that statement but you can''t of course because there isn't one reputable stat out there that can parse the numbers that Dunn has and spit out a positive result.

Also a) BPM is an all in one stat (which is why I used OBPM) b) replacement level is not average. 0.0 is average. Duh c) Okafor has not played well either

ORPM grades Dunn as 41st of 83 qualified PGs, almost the exact median. Given that RPM (in my opinion) is the most reputable stat, I'd argue that I can and there is.

[eagereyez]

Playing Okafor and Embiid together doesn't automatically equal to play Okafor at 4 though. In fact its more like play Embiid at 4 who can stretch the floor on offense and can cover larger range on the defense. Its not ideal but its better than play OK4／Saric together as our second unit. Long term though we might have to find a better 4 to pair with Embiid(I really dont like play Simmons at 4 either) but thats after we solve our crowded big man rotation. And before that we may have to find some way to get all of them enough time to play and try as hard as we can to ensure them play to an acceptable level at least.

Why don't you like Simmons at the 4? He's as tall as Chris Bosh, strong, and a great rebounder. Seems like he'd be able to defend the 4 pretty easily, and opposing 4's will be at a massive disadvantage trying to stop him on the perimeter.

Ideally I would prefer a streach 4 to pair with Embiid and play Simmons at 3 (defensively and point guard on offense) Im not sure if theres successful examples that playing your PF as your primary ball handler.

Lebron spent a lot of time at PF in Miami when Bosh was the starting C. He also had long stints at PF in the playoffs the past two years with Cleveland. Giannis would be another example, although he switches frequently between SF/PF to guard the best opposing forward. I guess a lot of it depends on the rest of the team, but ideally I'd want Simmons drawing a big out of the paint and taking him off the dribble. Imagine Love/Millsapp chasing Simmons around the perimeter all game. Pretty much forces the opponent to go small, allowing Embiid to feast.

[Sixerscan]

Playing Okafor and Embiid together doesn't automatically equal to play Okafor at 4 though. In fact its more like play Embiid at 4 who can stretch the floor on offense and can cover larger range on the defense. Its not ideal but its better than play OK4／Saric together as our second unit. Long term though we might have to find a better 4 to pair with Embiid(I really dont like play Simmons at 4 either) but thats after we solve our crowded big man rotation. And before that we may have to find some way to get all of them enough time to play and try as hard as we can to ensure them play to an acceptable level at least.

Why don't you like Simmons at the 4? He's as tall as Chris Bosh, strong, and a great rebounder. Seems like he'd be able to defend the 4 pretty easily, and opposing 4's will be at a massive disadvantage trying to stop him on the perimeter.

Ideally I would prefer a streach 4 to pair with Embiid and play Simmons at 3 (defensively and point guard on offense) Im not sure if theres successful examples that playing your PF as your primary ball handler.

I don't get what the position he plays on defense has to do with him playing the point on offense. There are a lot more 3s than there are 4s that can shoot and play defense. So if Simmons covers 4s you have a better chance of having a good 2 way player out there as the other forward. It also allows them to more seamlessly switch if the situation calls for it.

Really at the end of the day I just want the best player we can find. A lot of guys can fit with Simmons.

[76ciology]

From my observation, Jah has been doing a better job on moving his feet and reading on defense but he has become worse with his rebounding (+.12DRPM; 12.8 REB% last season vs 8.9 REB% this season).

It would surprise you to know that Jah has better DRPM and BLK% numbers than Karl Towns this season.

In the Grizz game, there were some complains of his defense but if you watch the film he did a good job moving his feet on defense and if you look at the "shots challenge" numbers his shots challenged and dfg% is similar to Embiid. But then there's a big disparity between on court defense and the team rebounded around 30% less with Okafor on court than with Biid (45% vs 60%). My thinking is if he only has improved his rebounding numbers, his defense won't really be much of an issue.

Objectively, his REAL weaknesses has gone worse which is at providing positive impact on offense (58th of 67 among Cs ORPM)&rebounding.

He'll always be a negative offensive player (just like Biid) unless he completely revamp it like what I've discussed on a thread about the "evolution of bigs on offense", which is having BIG improvements on their perimeter game. And increasing his post frequency from 32% to 40% and decreasing his roll man frequency from 13% to 8%, IMO are just gonna make it worse.

Providing a big positive impact on offense is a big gap to bridge for anyone at C and it's more difficult when you consider that the entire team is just averaging 95 ORtg while our best offensive player (which I'd assume it's embiid), is currently a non positive on offense.

[SelfishPlayer]

Starting Okafor at the PF position is about removing his rim protection responsibilities in favor of giving them to Embiid. It also will allow Okafor a size advantage on most nights allowing him to operate more comfortably offensively against guys like Ersan and Dario that proliferate the PF position in the NBA. When Okafor takes the 3 point shot away from "Ersan and Dario", those two guys have to finish with Embiid as a help defender and Okafor looming around for the block. You tell Okafor to send "Dario and Ersan" to the rim. Rebounding on both ends will certainly increase for the Sixers.

[phifans]

I don't get what the position he plays on defense has to do with him playing the point on offense. There are a lot more 3s than there are 4s that can shoot and play defense. So if Simmons covers 4s you have a better chance of having a good 2 way player out there as the other forward. It also allows them to more seamlessly switch if the situation calls for it.

Really at the end of the day I just want the best player we can find. A lot of guys can fit with Simmons.

Yeah Or i would just like to call Ben a Forward . So another "Forward" who could play off ball, strech the floor and switch with Ben when needed would be a perfect fit.

[76ciology]

Starting Okafor at the PF position is about removing his rim protection responsibilities in favor of giving them to Embiid. It also will allow Okafor a size advantage on most nights allowing him to operate more comfortably offensively against guys like Ersan and Dario that proliferate the PF position in the NBA. When Okafor takes the 3 point shot away from "Ersan and Dario", those two guys have to finish with Embiid as a help defender and Okafor looming around for the block. You tell Okafor to send "Dario and Ersan" to the rim. Rebounding on both ends will certainly increase for the Sixers.

Rim protection is the least of Okafor's problem right now. It's his rebounding and being positive on offense.

That's why BB put Jah with Saric (good rebounder) alongside shooters (Saric, Hollis and Sauce) so that they allows Jah to have more assist opportunities, higher points per possessions and again rebounding.

While I like the idea of Okafor-Embiid frontcourt, I still think that isn't a shortcut that would turn Jah into a big positive player. Real change should start with Okafor. If he can't shoot proficiently, then he needs to drive/roll more and just lower his post frequency on offense while he really needs to chase those boards.

[phifans]

Exactly. It's not really about playing Okafor at the 4. Because people that propose that is his natural position in the NBA must be part of some sort of elaborate prank.

Embiid/Okafor being better than Saric/Okafor has everything to do with Embiid being better than Saric and very little to do with Okafor. As you said, Embiid is the one that can shoot and cover some forwards. So let's be honest and talk about it in terms of Embiid playing the 4 rather than Okafor.

Thats why play Embiid with Okafor as starter and play Noel with either Ersan or Saric as second unit seems to be a better lineup for the sake of whole team on both sides

[sixers hoops]

I wasn't willing to move Okafor for anything less than a top 5 pick this summer. We used a premium asset, the 3 pick, so I needed to see more before giving up. I think Jahlil is a nice guy but we need to move him. We have Saric, Embiid, Holmes, Ersan, and soon Noel. Okafor doesn't fit.

In my opinion, you take what you can get and move on. That is why Hinkie wanted so many picks. Sometimes you miss.

It was infuriating to listen to this kind of thinking over the past year. Focusing on the sunk cost of a past investment leads to poor decision making going forward. The rational mindset would have been to consider his market value at any point in time and consider whether his future value is likely to exceed that and also consider what market perception of his value is relative to one's own perception. It was very clear to me early on that Okafor was worth nowhere near a top 5 pick and that there appeared to be a significant gap between my own perception of his value and market perception (given that plenty of people thought he was still worth a top 5 pick) that would decrease with time as his poor play and empty counting stats are further exposed. Now we've waited until everyone in the league is certain that he's not worth a top 5 pick - we no longer have any informational edge.

I agree with your logic, but once we invested that 3rd pick, and his season was shut down early, I need to evaluate further before throwing in the towel.

[SelfishPlayer]

Starting Okafor at the PF position is about removing his rim protection responsibilities in favor of giving them to Embiid. It also will allow Okafor a size advantage on most nights allowing him to operate more comfortably offensively against guys like Ersan and Dario that proliferate the PF position in the NBA. When Okafor takes the 3 point shot away from "Ersan and Dario", those two guys have to finish with Embiid as a help defender and Okafor looming around for the block. You tell Okafor to send "Dario and Ersan" to the rim. Rebounding on both ends will certainly increase for the Sixers.

Rim protection is the least of Okafor's problem right now. It's his rebounding and being positive on offense.

That's why BB put Jah with Saric (good rebounder) alongside shooters (Saric, Hollis and Sauce) so that they allows Jah to have more assist opportunities, higher points per possessions and again rebounding.

While I like the idea of Okafor-Embiid frontcourt, I still think that isn't a shortcut that would turn Jah into a big positive player. Real change should start with Okafor. If he can't shoot proficiently, then he needs to drive/roll more and just lower his post frequency on offense while he really needs to chase those boards.

The "little things" with a player like Jahlil are connected to the bigger things. If Jahlil is scoring then he's doing everything else. He's a 20 year old. Making it easier for him to perform as a scorer will work magic on everything else. I'm more about the shortest distance between two points. if you want to be like bad coaches and tie his playing time directly to doing the "little things well" then you may ruin him. He's never been a little things guy. He wasn't drafted to be a little things guy. That's not his mentality and he most likely will never develop it. He will most likely never be good at everything, besides scoring, if he is not asked to be a scorer. If he is asked to be a scorer, then he will most likely provide the rest at a good level. He's more likely to be a 20 & 10 guy than he is to be a 12 & 12 guy. Right now instilling a backup's mentality into him is RUINING AN ASSET! Brett Brown has Okafor in his dog house.Brett Brown is a loser that runs isolating plays out of time outs while good NBA coaches run sophisticated plays to get guys open for easy baskets.

[TTP]

The "little things" with a player like Jahlil are connected to the bigger things. If Jahlil is scoring then he's doing everything else. He's a 20 year old. Making it easier for him to perform as a scorer will work magic on everything else. I'm more about the shortest distance between two points. if you want to be like bad coaches and tie his playing time directly to doing the "little things well" then you may ruin him. He's never been a little things guy. He wasn't drafted to be a little things guy. That's not his mentality and he most likely will never develop it. He will most likely never be good at everything, besides scoring, if he is not asked to be a scorer. If he is asked to be a scorer, then he will most likely provide the rest at a good level. He's more likely to be a 20 & 10 guy than he is to be a 12 & 12 guy. Right now instilling a backup's mentality into him is RUINING AN ASSET! Brett Brown has Okafor in his dog house.Brett Brown is a loser that runs isolating plays out of time outs while good NBA coaches run sophisticated plays to get guys open for easy baskets.

I agree that it's going to take magic for Jahlil Okafor to be a successful starter.

[TeamHigh]

This is disingenuous. Okafor fans are not saying that he would succeed if not for how he is being used. Okafor fans are saying that he deserves the chance to see if he can do it.

The only reason he "deserves" the chance to try is because he was the 3rd pick and people are desperate to recoup value for what they spent to get him.

There's no rational reason to believe that he would be a 4 in the modern NBA other than wishful thinking.

• His lateral quickness is poor for a 5. Why would you believe it would get better against quicker opponents?
  
• He's poor whenever he's forced to defend out towards the perimeter. Why would you believe it would get better if he's forced to play there more?
  
• He provides no value as an outside shooter. Why do you think he would become a more efficient offensive player if he's forced to shoot outside more?

Okafor is not a 4. You could potentially play him alongside Embiid, but it would be Embiid playing the 4.

They wouldn't commit their rim protector to Embiid just because he's bigger than Okafor, especially if you force Embiid out towards the high post or three point line to give Okafor room down low (you would put him on Okafor and swallow him up while your stretch 4 harasses Embiid out on the perimeter). And if you try to post up Embiid on their 4s, you'll just have him run into doubles because Okafor is not a floor spacer or a threat catching lobs, which means their rim protector will happily come over and help.

It could work because Embiid is a freakish player who has enough skill to play the 4. But that would be minimizing Embiid's massive size and post skills so you can accommodate Jahlil Okafor. Why would you want to do that exactly?

People need to get realistic about the modern NBA. It's a pace and space league now. Defenders do not simply pick a man and play inside their jerseys now. Your rim protector will try to stay near the rim and he'll guard whoever is closest to the basket. Your perimeter defender will guard their spaces and switch when necessary. The league is moving towards interchangeable defenders and you want to live in a fantasy world where Okafor will magically have a smaller player on him even when he's set up as the team's 5, just because Embiid is 7'2.

[76ciology]

This is disingenuous. Okafor fans are not saying that he would succeed if not for how he is being used. Okafor fans are saying that he deserves the chance to see if he can do it.

The only reason he "deserves" the chance to try is because he was the 3rd pick and people are desperate to recoup value for what they spent to get him.

There's no rational reason to believe that he would be a 4 in the modern NBA other than wishful thinking.

• His lateral quickness is poor for a 5. Why would you believe it would get better against quicker opponents?
  
• He's poor whenever he's forced to defend out towards the perimeter. Why would you believe it would get better if he's forced to play there more?
  
• He provides no value as an outside shooter. Why do you think he would become a more efficient offensive player if he's forced to shoot outside more?

Okafor is not a 4. You could potentially play him alongside Embiid, but it would be Embiid playing the 4.

They wouldn't commit their rim protector to Embiid just because he's bigger than Okafor, especially if you force Embiid out towards the high post or three point line to give Okafor room down low (you would put him on Okafor and swallow him up while your stretch 4 harasses Embiid out on the perimeter). And if you try to post up Embiid on their 4s, you'll just have him run into doubles because Okafor is not a floor spacer or a threat catching lobs, which means their rim protector will happily come over and help.

It could work because Embiid is a freakish player who has enough skill to play the 4. But that would be minimizing Embiid's massive size and post skills so you can accommodate Jahlil Okafor. Why would you want to do that exactly?

People need to get realistic about the modern NBA. It's a pace and space league now. Defenders do not simply pick a man and play inside their jerseys now. Your rim protector will try to stay near the rim and he'll guard whoever is closest to the basket. Your perimeter defender will guard their spaces and switch when necessary. The league is moving towards interchangeable defenders and you want to live in a fantasy world where Okafor will magically have a smaller player on him even when he's set up as the team's 5, just because Embiid is 7'2.

Agree on the match-up issue.

Was just about to post about this. We saw the same scenario against the Hawks when we saw a brief stint of the Biid/Okafor where it was Milsap who's defending Biid and D12 on Okafor. Then used the same scheme against the Grizz where we had ilyasova/Saric on Gasol and Okafor on Zach Randolph.

I don't agree on Jah's lateral being slow for a 5.

The issue with Jah is with his reaction time as a help defender at the 5 where he's basically a goalie. But if you look at his individual defense he has always been good and this even includes brief stints when he was faced against quicker players like Milsap, Tobias Harris and other pgs

Jah is not an ideal 4 nowadays because the game is played 4 in 1 out nowadays. Where you basically need 4 guys who can space the floor. But then, it can work considering Biid is an elite shooter that's something most people want to see.

What I think people should be realistic with the modern NBA is that the post game is close to being dead and should only be considered as last option on offense. Thus looking at the numbers, Biid is a much more effective shooter than a post player and Jah is a much more effective ISO player than a post player.

[phifans]

It could work because Embiid is a freakish player who has enough skill to play the 4. But that would be minimizing Embiid's massive size and post skills so you can accommodate Jahlil Okafor. Why would you want to do that exactly?

You do that because a) Okafor/Saric is a terrible pair on defense and we need to find minutes for Noel once he comes back. b) We need to bump OK4 and Noels' value to put them on a situation where they could most likely perform well if you don't plan to keep them for your long term. c) As talent as Embiid is I think he will be fine play at 4 for this season.

[Kolkmania]

This is disingenuous. Okafor fans are not saying that he would succeed if not for how he is being used. Okafor fans are saying that he deserves the chance to see if he can do it.

The only reason he "deserves" the chance to try is because he was the 3rd pick and people are desperate to recoup value for what they spent to get him.

There's no rational reason to believe that he would be a 4 in the modern NBA other than wishful thinking.

• His lateral quickness is poor for a 5. Why would you believe it would get better against quicker opponents?
  
• He's poor whenever he's forced to defend out towards the perimeter. Why would you believe it would get better if he's forced to play there more?
  
• He provides no value as an outside shooter. Why do you think he would become a more efficient offensive player if he's forced to shoot outside more?

Okafor is not a 4. You could potentially play him alongside Embiid, but it would be Embiid playing the 4.

They wouldn't commit their rim protector to Embiid just because he's bigger than Okafor, especially if you force Embiid out towards the high post or three point line to give Okafor room down low (you would put him on Okafor and swallow him up while your stretch 4 harasses Embiid out on the perimeter). And if you try to post up Embiid on their 4s, you'll just have him run into doubles because Okafor is not a floor spacer or a threat catching lobs, which means their rim protector will happily come over and help.

It could work because Embiid is a freakish player who has enough skill to play the 4. But that would be minimizing Embiid's massive size and post skills so you can accommodate Jahlil Okafor. Why would you want to do that exactly?

People need to get realistic about the modern NBA. It's a pace and space league now. Defenders do not simply pick a man and play inside their jerseys now. Your rim protector will try to stay near the rim and he'll guard whoever is closest to the basket. Your perimeter defender will guard their spaces and switch when necessary. The league is moving towards interchangeable defenders and you want to live in a fantasy world where Okafor will magically have a smaller player on him even when he's set up as the team's 5, just because Embiid is 7'2.

Amen. All the people here who try to persuade BB playing Okafor with Embiid should ask themselves one question:

Do we want Embiid's minutes invested in negating Okafor's deficiencies or would we rather play Embiid to his full strengths in the limited minutes he's allowed to play?

[Unbreakable99]

Hold your butts.

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