The Sixerfan1976 Off-Season Thread (Update: Page 61)

[tk76]

ChuckS- you make some good points about Brand being the most effective PF on the team.

The problem I see is that Brand being the best PF is more a reflection of this team's overall lack of front-court talent then praise of Brand. As Radrmd points out, this team's situation at PF/C is best described as abysmal.

The team is relying on dramatic improvement from Brand, Speights, Thad and Hawes. And they could improve... but each has issues with size, age, work-ethic, attitude that lead to reasonable concern. It is very possibly that none of those players will be above average starters at C or PF in the foreseeable future. Whether you want to speculate the future or not.

As for:

I'll admit that it is only from personal observation, but I did not see the degree of physical deterioration in Brand's game that some are so certain renders him forever useless to us. Conversely, I admittedly do not know at what level Elton can perform in the future. I generally leave such things to those among us gifted enough to foretell greatness from watching clips of high school or college play. I feel they can best also predict future failure and decline. I need to see more than many.

You do not need to be a seer to be able to forsee that lack of talent will lead to struggles. When the Sixers entered last year without a PG with any NBA pedigree (after letting Miller walk) it was not any great stretch to predict the team would struggle mightily unless their 19 year old rookie was a quick on the job learner.

Same thing next year with the F/C positions full of below average NBA players with issues.

[radrmd216]

The Sixers are in tough position created by the front office. Iggy along with the development of Turner and Jrue could keep the Sixers a 45-50 win team for awhile with no foreseeable way to become a contending team. No franchise player and not good enough to get high lottery picks. What makes it even worse is that the front office still doesn't seem to have a plan.

[bumpo]

We don't have the type of team to go far into the playoffs. There are no kobe's or wade's on our team. We seem to just have a bunch of players with promise and second tier guys.

[bebopdeluxe]

I don't know what part of this fan base is holding out hope that Elton Brand is going to be the player that he was 4 years ago. Certainly my line of 16/8/1.5 is a material departure from the numbers that he consistently put up in the first 6-7 years of his career. Like ChuckS, when I saw Brand out there getting consistent minutes in a rotation that made sense (which almost NEVER happened last year), he produced numbers that I think we would all be happy with at PF.

We'll just have to wait and see what happens...won't we?

[ChuckS]

The problem I see is that Brand being the best PF is more a reflection of this team's overall lack of front-court talent then praise of Brand.

I came neither to praise nor bury Brand. My point is that with all the front court problems you enumerate, why all the hysteria for the least of these, particularly since, because of his recent injuries and salary, he most likely cannot be moved. I realize the salary annoys most, but I cannot think of anything we can do about that now so I'd use him if he is our best option at the position.

You do not need to be a seer to be able to forsee that lack of talent will lead to struggles. When the Sixers entered last year without a PG with any NBA pedigree (after letting Miller walk) it was not any great stretch to predict the team would struggle mightily unless their 19 year old rookie was a quick on the job learner.

Excellent point. I think most realized what would happen with Miller and only clamored to give him up so we could suck for the lottery. There were probably very few who really believed we would be better with Lou. (We did not know of Jrue.) Unfortunately, I believe that Stefanski was one of those. Similarly, he should have foreseen that the loss of Dalembert would put us in the like position we now find ourselves at center. Maybe he and DC have more confidence in Hawes or have planned ahead for a solution. But if not then by all means worry.

By the way, it was not I who ever demonstrated unrealistic optimism for 2010/11, except for a belief that Collins will utilize every asset to its fullest and ultimately change the direction of the franchise. I do think our front court can be somewhat workable if Brand is not "done". He should match well with the high post centers we have. But thanks for allowing me the option of not speculating one way or the other.

...it was not any great stretch to predict the team would struggle mightily unless their 19 year old rookie was a quick on the job learner.

Same thing next year with the F/C positions full of below average NBA players with issues.

The good thing about that is that those who hope for another lottery year can be encouraged.

[freshie2]

So are they signing Joel Anthony??

Anything new on the Rockets front?? I really am not for pushing Iguodala out the door, but think this gives the Sixers many of the pieces they need to move forward...a capable replacement for Iguodala in Ariza (not as good, but a long defender which is what Iguodala's greatest asset will be on this team), a young big man in J Hill, and some cap flexibility (if they can squeeze a draft pick out of Houston as well, all the better).

You know what you are getting with Ariza, and I can live with that. Similar regular season scoring production to Iguodala, nice performances in the playoffs, and very nice length/defense.

Hill is obviously the wild card. He has nice length and athleticism for a PF, but needs to refine/extend his game. Even if he comes in and is a high end rebounder (attitude/effort) it fills a void this team has and gives you 3 22 year old bigs with skill/potential.

Anxious to see if anything comes of this...not saying it is perfect, but I do think this is a justifiable move if your looking to compete in the upper tier in 2-3 years.

[underpressure]

Well, I don't say how trading by far the best player in a deal leads us being able to compete in the upper tier in 2-3 years. Normally you assemble a number of glue players and then find some role players that suit some team needs. As far as what we would get: Ariza is a perennial role-player, Hill has really shown nothing that warrants any optimism about his potential. You don't really build a winner with this material.

We should not trade just for the sake of trading. We are likely heading into mediocrity again, which is not necessarily a bad thing. This time our team is mainly carried by our young guys, not by veterans (Miller, Smith). We will only escape mediocrity if we can handle the Brand situation properly, thus replacing him with a top-tier big, and if our young guys develop as desired. Making our team now less competitive again without being amonst the worst teams in the league, is not the way to go.

[radrmd216]

Realistically, if the Sixers keep Iggy they probably won't compete for a title. They are at the point where they are too good to get a top lottery pick and not don't have the assets to trade for a franchise player. With Iggy the Sixers still don't compete for a title in 2-3 years.

With Iggy the Sixers will definitely will win more games in 2-3 years and be more competitive, but I don't think that gives them better chances at a title than trading Iggy for a good young player and getting a lottery pick. As good as Iggy is, I don't think we two good young players and cap space.

It seems like some say Iggy isn't a franchise player, but defend not trading like he is a franchise player. I think there have been other players that were traded and were better than Iggy.

Iggy is the type of player teams like the Magic, Bulls, Mavs or Nuggets trade for as a piece that could help them fight for a title. He isn't a player that a team keeps around so they can hope to get pieces around him.

[BringBackKorver]

Well it's not about wanting to trade him or not wanting to trade him. It's about getting a fair return. I'm not going to settle for 25 cents on the dollar just for the sake of trading him. We either get a fair return and a solid building block for the future, or we hold on to him and make due with the assets we have.

[Point-God]

Iggy is not Andre Miller. The Sixers should only trade Iguodala when a clearly better player gets placed on the market. Andre Miller is someone that made the Sixers a mediocre team while being a veteran and approaching the end of his contract. The best move would have been trading Miller for anything that didn't hurt the cap. Iguodala, Thad, Speights, and Lou Williams might be enough to trade for a superstar if one hits the market.

Ariza isn't clearly a better player than Iguodala and Ariza has long term health concerns that could be career ending.

[BobbyJones]

In this particular case, this is one where statistics do not tell the whole story, IMO.

Statistics are like a pretty girls in bikinis: even if they show you a lot, they don't necessarily show you what you are interested to see.

[radrmd216]

I don't think Iggy, Speights, Thad, and Lou can get a superstar player. It seems from Sixersfan's reports and the fans on here, Thad's value is okay and Speights has little value. The pieces needed to get a superstar player would be the players listed above and Jrue and Turner. The Sixers might not be tha good after the trade and wouldn't be bad enough to get a lottery pick.

I would think the best bet for future success would be to trade Iggy for the best available package and get a lottery pick. It's a shame people in the organization want to save their jobs and don't realize have teams of won relatively recently.

I think this is a good thing to think about when making a trade: If you don't really want to trade a certain player then the other team probably wants that player in a trade for their star.

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[marcus15]

Any interest in Varejao? Looks like the sixers need a defensive minded bigman and Varejao is one of the best post defenders in the league, and only 27. Cavs are blowing it up so he'll be on the block. Although I'm not sure if he could start full time at center, depending on the style of Collins' system.

I'd love to see the Cavs get Thaddeus Young for Varejao, since he's supposed to be available.

[ChuckS]

I would think the best bet for future success would be to trade Iggy for the best available package and get a lottery pick.

So you keep saying...and saying. I do not think so, but perhaps you are correct. The most dominant team in the league, however, got their superstar by trading for him. In fact five of their six best players were secured by trade or free agency, not by lottery. Even the one exception, Bynum, was a ten pick. Early in their dynasty they also obtained Kareem in trade. They did get good picks before the weighted lottery, but have prospered with smart trades and free agency since.

Portland got Roy by trading on draft day. Miami just get Bosh and LBJ in free agency. Yet you seem incredulous if everyone does not agree with you. I think that "there are more things in heaven and earth..., than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

It's a shame people in the organization want to save their jobs and don't realize have (how) teams of won relatively recently.

Is it so inconceivable that they might just think that you are wrong, and I suggest with good reason, based upon their years in the business? Collins as much as stated he would trade anyone to get better. I can understand his/their confusion about trying to get better by getting worse, or by giving exceptional value for nothing. Again, I will agree to disagree, but it confuses me also. I suppose, however, that anything is possible.

[sec-106]

I'd love to see the Cavs get Thaddeus Young for Varejao, since he's supposed to be available.

I would, too.

[Foshan]

If Young/Kapono/2nd could net Varejao/Green I'd probably go for it.

Jrue/LWill
Turner/Meeks
Iggy/Noc/Green
Brand/Speights
Hawes/Varejao

[Mik317]

I hate Varejao with a passion. Dude sucks and without Lebron to get him easy shots it's going to be even more obvious. I don't want that flopper anywhere near my team.

[HartfordWhalers]

Then please explain why the Sixers didn't mind taking on Nocs contract and only taking a contract of one year for Hawes. Yup.

Nocioni's remaining one year was the price it took to dump Dalembert for Hawes.

Dalembert wasn't going to be here past next year. He wanted gone. The Sixers liked Hawes. Nocioni's one remaining year was the incentive Sac wanted.

The Sixers pursued Hawes for Dalembert last year at the deadline. This isn't speculation, I know it as a fact.

So now that Turner has signed his contract, {details on http://www.phillyburbs.com/news/news_de ... urner.html} we can get a pretty good idea of the cap space this cost us.

We should now be 2.7 below the luxury tax, so the trade was still needed there as we would have been over it without it. {Of course this consideration wasn't important to the team.}

In 2011 we now have: 52.7 committed to 8 players.
If we hadn't, we would have 46 committed to 7 players.

With this years cap at 58, and Stern claiming record ticket sales for next season, I think a 60 cap might be reasonable even with a new CBA, and I wouldn't expect the cap to be lower than the 58 it is now. That is enough room for a 12-14 million per year player or signing someone to something like Scola's deal (47 over 5) and trying to keep Young at something like 27.5 over 5.
With the possible restricted free agents Oden, Noah, M.Gasol, Hofford; I hope we are really high on not just Hawes but Nocioni as well, because the lost cap space was definitely large enough to matter.

[83SixersRocked]

I don't like Varejao much either. He obviously hustles, but he gets pushed around like a rag doll in the paint. He needs to bulk up a bit.